"Works Salvation"

[Doug Brents]

Oh no, the unregenerate cant obey God, and Gods Gospel is to be obeyed Rom 10:16

But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?

When Jesus was lifted up on the cross, He drew all men to Himself. Therefore, all men have the ability to obey the Gospel, because God has given it to them.

 

[Doug Brents]

But you can look at each verse and say it is true.

Now were we to proclaim salvation requires faith, confession and baptism

What do you do with the verse which state we are saved through faith?

What do you do with the verses which mention faith and baptism, but not confession?

What do you do with verses which mention faith and confession, but not baptism?

Can you argue they are all false?

No you must assume all three are true.

Thus you cannot deny one with faith is saved.

Yes it is the negative inference fallacy and I can post multiple verses which point to faith as the point of salvation

Example

John 5:24 (NASB 2020) — 24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, the one who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Are you going to proclaim it false?

Faith is not just intellectual assent, it requires action (Heb 11:1, James 2:26). But it is not just one action. It is all the actions that give life to our belief, and exhibit trust in God's promises. Abraham believed that God could raise Isaac from the dead, so he was willing to sacrifice Isaac to God, trusting that God would honor His promises. That is faith.

And the word that is translated "belief" in almost every place in the NT is the Greek word "pistis" which means faith. Thus it is not talking about intellectual assent (the way we understand "belief" today), but exhibiting faith. Some passages mention one part of what is required to receive salvation but not others. Some lump all of it under "faith" (belief). Some list several of the requirements, but all of them must be done in faith. If you don't believe Jesus is God, and you don't believe that He died for your sins, but you verbalize "Jesus is Lord" and are baptized, all you did was say some words and get wet; you were not saved.

In John 5:24, believes is again from "pistis" meaning faith. And faith is not real, alive, effective if it does not include actions of obedience (James 2:26). And baptism is the action of faith during which Scripture says that we receive forgiveness (Col 2:11-14), that we are united with Christ in His death and resurrection (Rom 6:14, Col 2:11-14), and that we enter into the Kingdom of God (John 3:5).

 

[brightfame52]

Um faith is not about what you do but what he did.

That is what you are resting on

Your trust in Him

Paul affirmed what I claimed

Romans 4:1–16 (ESV) — 1 What then shall we say was gained by Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.” 4 Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. 5 And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness, 6 just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works: 7 “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, and whose sins are covered; 8 blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not count his sin.” 9 Is this blessing then only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? For we say that faith was counted to Abraham as righteousness. 10 How then was it counted to him? Was it before or after he had been circumcised? It was not after, but before he was circumcised. 11 He received the sign of circumcision as a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. The purpose was to make him the father of all who believe without being circumcised, so that righteousness would be counted to them as well, 12 and to make him the father of the circumcised who are not merely circumcised but who also walk in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham had before he was circumcised. 13 For the promise to Abraham and his offspring that he would be heir of the world did not come through the law but through the righteousness of faith. 14 For if it is the adherents of the law who are to be the heirs, faith is null and the promise is void. 15 For the law brings wrath, but where there is no law there is no transgression. 16 That is why it depends on faith, in order that the promise may rest on grace and be guaranteed to all his offspring—not only to the adherent of the law but also to the one who shares the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all,


Luke does as well


Acts 16:30–31 (ESV) — 30 Then he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” 31 And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.”

Its simple, if you condition your salvation with God on anything you did, its works and forfeits salvation by grace through faith.

 

[brightfame52]

When Jesus was lifted up on the cross, He drew all men to Himself. Therefore, all men have the ability to obey the Gospel, because God has given it to them.

Man cannot obey the Gospel while unregenerate, he cannot believe it while in the flesh. Those in Rom 10:9-10 are regenerate, saved.

 

[Doug Brents]

Man cannot obey the Gospel while unregenerate, he cannot believe it while in the flesh. Those in Rom 10:9-10 are regenerate, saved.

You keep saying that, but it does not fit with what God commanded of us, nor of what the rest of Scripture says. Yes, unregenerated man can respond to God, and search for Him, and find Him, because God drew all men to Himself when Jesus was lifted up on the cross (John 12:32).

 

[brightfame52]

You keep saying that, but it does not fit with what God commanded of us, nor of what the rest of Scripture says. Yes, unregenerated man can respond to God, and search for Him, and find Him, because God drew all men to Himself when Jesus was lifted up on the cross (John 12:32).

Man in the flesh, which we all are when unregenerate, cannot please God Rom 8:8

8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
So the unregenerate cant have Faith which pleases God Heb 11:6
6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Its not possible for the unregenerate to do those things of Rom 10:9-10

 

[synergy]

Man cannot obey the Gospel while unregenerate, he cannot believe it while in the flesh. Those in Rom 10:9-10 are regenerate, saved.

If that's true then execution of Rom 10:8-17's exhortation to be saved would then make them twice saved. If they were twice saved already then another execution would make thrice saved. And and on we go - where we stop nobody knows.

 

[brightfame52]

If that's true then execution of Rom 10:8-17's exhortation to be saved would then make them twice saved. If they were twice saved already then another execution would make thrice saved. And and on we go - where we stop nobody knows.

I dont know what you talking about. Thats issues you must work out. But the unregenerate can do anything to please God. And if you condition your salvation with God on anything you do, if its just a twinkling of your eye, its works salvation and denies Christ.

 

[Doug Brents]

Man in the flesh, which we all are when unregenerate, cannot please God Rom 8:8

8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
So the unregenerate cant have Faith which pleases God Heb 11:6
6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Its not possible for the unregenerate to do those things of Rom 10:9-10

Clearly they can, because it says that doing those things LEADS TO RECEIVING REGENERATION. The ones doing what Rom 10:9-10 says cannot be regenerated, because doing those thing leads to them being regenerated. And if these things cannot be done by the unregenerated, then NO ONE CAN POSSIBLY BE REGENERATED.

 

[TomL]

Faith is not just intellectual assent, it requires action (Heb 11:1, James 2:26). But it is not just one action. It is all the actions that give life to our belief, and exhibit trust in God's promises. Abraham believed that God could raise Isaac from the dead, so he was willing to sacrifice Isaac to God, trusting that God would honor His promises. That is faith.

That is true, but is it the action or the faith behind the action that is decisive. We do not read in the scripture Abraham was willing to sacrifice his son, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. Nor do we read Abraham left his home, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. We do however read Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness

And the word that is translated "belief" in almost every place in the NT is the Greek word "pistis" which means faith. Thus it is not talking about intellectual assent (the way we understand "belief" today), but exhibiting faith. Some passages mention one part of what is required to receive salvation but not others. Some lump all of it under "faith" (belief). Some list several of the requirements, but all of them must be done in faith. If you don't believe Jesus is God, and you don't believe that He died for your sins, but you verbalize "Jesus is Lord" and are baptized, all you did was say some words and get wet; you were not saved.

I do not understand belief as intellectual assent nor do I teach that. I believe biblical faith is trust and that faith is seen in what one does.

In John 5:24, believes is again from "pistis" meaning faith. And faith is not real, alive, effective if it does not include actions of obedience (James 2:26). And baptism is the action of faith during which Scripture says that we receive forgiveness (Col 2:11-14), that we are united with Christ in His death and resurrection (Rom 6:14, Col 2:11-14), and that we enter into the Kingdom of God (John 3:5).

Baptism is an act of faith. It is however wrong to say one cannot be saved without it. We know the thief on the cross was.

I do not see a drop of water in Rom 6.

It is the baptism en the holy ghost by which we enter into the body of Christ, baptized into him (his body).

1 Corinthians 12:13 (ESV) — 13 For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—Jews or Greeks, slaves or free—and all were made to drink of one Spirit.

and sealed in Christ

Ephesians 1:13 (ESV) — 13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,

It is the only true baptism which unites us with Christ

You will note Cornelius and his household were baptized en the spirit and seen as having had received life apart from water baptism

Acts 11:15–18 (ESV) — 15 As I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell on them just as on us at the beginning. 16 And I remembered the word of the Lord, how he said, ‘John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’ 17 If then God gave the same gift to them as he gave to us when we believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could stand in God’s way?” 18 When they heard these things they fell silent. And they glorified God, saying, “Then to the Gentiles also God has granted repentance that leads to life.”

Water baptism is a symbol of what happens in the baptism en the spirit

It is the baptism en the spirit which unites us with Christ

Having sealed us in Christ it buries us with him and raises and seats us in heavenly places with Him

 

[TomL]

Its simple, if you condition your salvation with God on anything you did, its works and forfeits salvation by grace through faith.

You are repeating yourself while ignoring what Paul states in Rom 4:1-5, 16

Luke as well

Acts 16:30–31 (ESV) — 30 Then he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” 31 And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.”

Faith is not seeing merit in what you do, but in what he did

 

[synergy]

I dont know what you talking about. Thats issues you must work out.

Those are issues that confront you, not me. You offered no solution to the (nth saved) predicaments that your Calvinist belief forces you into.

But the unregenerate can do anything to please God. And if you condition your salvation with God on anything you do, if its just a twinkling of your eye, its works salvation and denies Christ.

Doug and Tom are doing a super job in showing you what the Bible truly says about that topic.

 

[TomL]

I dont know what you talking about. Thats issues you must work out. But the unregenerate can do anything to please God. And if you condition your salvation with God on anything you do, if its just a twinkling of your eye, its works salvation and denies Christ.

The unregenerate can believe given revelation

Mark 4:10–12 (ESV) — 10 And when he was alone, those around him with the twelve asked him about the parables. 11 And he said to them, “To you has been given the secret of the kingdom of God, but for those outside everything is in parables, 12 so that “ ‘they may indeed see but not perceive, and may indeed hear but not understand, lest they should turn and be forgiven.’ ”

Luke 8:13 (ESV) — 13 And the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear the word, receive it with joy. But these have no root; they believe for a while, and in time of testing fall away.

John 12:40 (ESV) — 40 “He has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart, lest they see with their eyes, and understand with their heart, and turn, and I would heal them.”

John 20:31 (ESV) — 31 but these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

John 1:6–7 (ESV) — 6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 He came as a witness, to bear witness about the light, that all might believe through him.

John 17:20 (ESV) — 20 “I do not ask for these only, but also for those who will believe in me through their word,

 

[TomL]

Man in the flesh, which we all are when unregenerate, cannot please God Rom 8:8

8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
So the unregenerate cant have Faith which pleases God Heb 11:6
6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Its not possible for the unregenerate to do those things of Rom 10:9-10

Romans 8:7–8 (ESV) — 7 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God’s law; indeed, it cannot. 8 Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

those controlled by the flesh

But let me ask you did Cornelius please God

Acts 10:1–4 (ESV) — 1 At Caesarea there was a man named Cornelius, a centurion of what was known as the Italian Cohort, 2 a devout man who feared God with all his household, gave alms generously to the people, and prayed continually to God. 3 About the ninth hour of the day he saw clearly in a vision an angel of God come in and say to him, “Cornelius.” 4 And he stared at him in terror and said, “What is it, Lord?” And he said to him, “Your prayers and your alms have ascended as a memorial before God.

Rahab the prostitute?

 

[Doug Brents]

That is true, but is it the action or the faith behind the action that is decisive. We do not read in the scripture Abraham was willing to sacrifice his son, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. Nor do we read Abraham left his home, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. We do however read Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness

Again, the word "believed" is translated from the Greek "pistis" which means "faith". Abraham had faith in God and it was accounted to him as righteousness. This passage is quoted twice by NT authors. Once in Rom 4, and the other in James 2:23. James, sheds some new light on the quote however. James says that Abraham's actions completed his faith, and through his actions he was accounted as righteous.

I do not understand belief as intellectual assent nor do I teach that. I believe biblical faith is trust and that faith is seen in what one does.

Very good. If you do not take action on your belief then you don't really believe. That is the gist of what Scripture teaches. If you do not do what Jesus says, then He is not your Lord no matter how much you profess otherwise (Luke 6:46).

Baptism is an act of faith. It is however wrong to say one cannot be saved without it. We know the thief on the cross was.

How many times do I have to go through this? The thief on the cross was promised paradise BEFORE Jesus died. Jesus had the power and authority to forgive sins while He was alive on Earth (Luke 5:24). So He was well within His rights and power to forgive the thief and promise him paradise. But after He died, His will (last will and testament) is locked and the path to salvation is also. Salvation only comes through doing what He said leads to salvation.

I do not see a drop of water in Rom 6.

There is only one baptism of consequence in the NT (Eph 4:5-6). That baptism is something that man does (Matt 28:19), and it leads to salvation (Mark 16:16), and it requires water (1 Pet 3:21). Thus, the baptism in which we are saved (have our sins cut from us, and are united with Jesus' death and resurrection) is the baptism that is in water.

It is the baptism en the holy ghost by which we enter into the body of Christ, baptized into him (his body).

1 Corinthians 12:13 (ESV) — 13 For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—Jews or Greeks, slaves or free—and all were made to drink of one Spirit.

and sealed in Christ

Ephesians 1:13 (ESV) — 13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,

It is the only true baptism which unites us with Christ

The baptism of the Spirit is not something man can accomplish, so it is not the baptism that Jesus commanded as leading to salvation (Matt 28:19, Mark 16:16). The baptism of the Holy Spirit has only occurred twice in all of history, and it was a sign to the people that God would accept them into the Church. It did not save them.

You will note Cornelius and his household were baptized en the spirit and seen as having had received life apart from water baptism

No, Cornelius received the miraculous works of the Spirit, but he did not receive the indwelling of the Spirit which is what is promised to those who are in Christ. He receive the indwelling and forgiveness of sin when he was baptized in water by Peter in Acts 10:47.

Acts 11:15–18 (ESV) — 15 As I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell on them just as on us at the beginning. 16 And I remembered the word of the Lord, how he said, ‘John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’ 17 If then God gave the same gift to them as he gave to us when we believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could stand in God’s way?” 18 When they heard these things they fell silent. And they glorified God, saying, “Then to the Gentiles also God has granted repentance that leads to life.”

Water baptism is a symbol of what happens in the baptism en the spirit

It is the baptism en the spirit which unites us with Christ

Having sealed us in Christ it buries us with him and raises and seats us in heavenly places with Him

Sorry Tom, but that is not correct. As pointed out above, the Holy Spirit takes action during baptism in water. Look at Col 2:11-14:
"and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision performed without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ, 12 having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. 13 And when you were dead in your wrongdoings and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our wrongdoings, 14 having canceled the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross."
The circumcision performed without hands is the Holy Spirit removing the body of the flesh from us. And this occurs when we are "buried with Him in Baptism", because it is in baptism that we are raised with Him through faith.... The baptism here is the baptism in water that the teacher does to the disciple (Matt 28:19).

 

[brightfame52]

Clearly they can, because it says that doing those things LEADS TO RECEIVING REGENERATION. The ones doing what Rom 10:9-10 says cannot be regenerated, because doing those thing leads to them being regenerated. And if these things cannot be done by the unregenerated, then NO ONE CAN POSSIBLY BE REGENERATED.

The unregenerate, them in the flesh cannot please God Rom 8:8

8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

What does cannot mean ? Hint it has to do with ability

 

[brightfame52]

You are repeating yourself while ignoring what Paul states in Rom 4:1-5, 16

Luke as well

Acts 16:30–31 (ESV) — 30 Then he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” 31 And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.”

Faith is not seeing merit in what you do, but in what he did

Dont matter how many scriptures you get, none of them condition salvation on your works.

 

[Doug Brents]

The unregenerate, them in the flesh cannot please God Rom 8:8

8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

What does cannot mean ? Hint it has to do with ability

Then, according to your theology, there will be absolutely no one in Heaven except the Father, because Jesus was in the flesh. No one can or will be saved, according to your theology (which is totally wrong, by the way, but what you stick to no matter what Scripture tells you).

 

[brightfame52]

Those are issues that confront you, not me. You offered no solution to the (nth saved) predicaments that your Calvinist belief forces you into.

Doug and Tom are doing a super job in showing you what the Bible truly says about that topic.

They can never show that salvation is conditioned on works. Eph 2:8-9

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

 

[brightfame52]

The unregenerate can believe given revelation

Mark 4:10–12 (ESV) — 10 And when he was alone, those around him with the twelve asked him about the parables. 11 And he said to them, “To you has been given the secret of the kingdom of God, but for those outside everything is in parables, 12 so that “ ‘they may indeed see but not perceive, and may indeed hear but not understand, lest they should turn and be forgiven.’ ”

Luke 8:13 (ESV) — 13 And the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear the word, receive it with joy. But these have no root; they believe for a while, and in time of testing fall away.

John 12:40 (ESV) — 40 “He has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart, lest they see with their eyes, and understand with their heart, and turn, and I would heal them.”

John 20:31 (ESV) — 31 but these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

John 1:6–7 (ESV) — 6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 He came as a witness, to bear witness about the light, that all might believe through him.

John 17:20 (ESV) — 20 “I do not ask for these only, but also for those who will believe in me through their word,

The unregenerate are in the flesh and cannot please God Rom 8:8

8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.