It sure is. As such you are at a lose to explain how it supports what you're claiming.
"Works Salvation"
- Thread starter Seabass
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Doug Brents
Well-known member
Yes, it was at the point when they were listening to Paul, but not when they first heard and obeyed the Gospel. Read the text of verse 10 again. “for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.”. If you are honest with the text, and don’t read your preconceptions into it, you MUST admit that these actions, which you said man does, must precede the reception of salvation.
dwight92070
Well-known member
So when I was born again in my military barracks, I don't recall making that confession. Not only that - about 2 weeks later I was baptized in water, and I don't recall making that confession there either. So you're telling me I was not saved, even though I believed He was my Lord in my heart?
Also, what does a person do who believes in his heart, but he is not instructed to say "Jesus is Lord"? That is what happened to me and I'm sure thousands of others.
What about the thief on the cross? Obviously, he could not get baptized, but he could speak, but he did NOT say "Jesus is Lord"? Did Jesus tell him to say "Jesus is Lord"? Did he believe in his heart?
Why did Philip NOT tell the Ethiopian eunuch to say "Jesus is Lord"? So I guess he was lost?
Peter didn't tell the 3,000 to say "Jesus is Lord". So they were lost?
Nor did he tell Cornelius and his household to say "Jesus is Lord". So I guess they were all lost?
Ananias didn't tell Paul to say "Jesus is Lord". So Paul actually wasn't saved, even though he was baptized? Even after his baptism, he was not instructed to confess "Jesus is Lord".
Peter, in his second recorded sermon in Acts 3:11-26, did not instruct them to say "Jesus is Lord", so they must be lost too?
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Not if you believe scripture
Romans 4 (KJV 1900) — 1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? 2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. 3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. 4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
faith is called for, and it is not defined as works salvation
Should we not heed the word of God?
If you believe that you have a problem with scripture
Acts 16:30–31 (KJV 1900) — 30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? 31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
Shall we heed what God says in his word or what man says in his lexicon.
A lexicon cannot tell you what a word must mean only context can do that.
Faith is not works salvation for those who believe God's word
brightfame52
Well-known member
I dont see the relation. Im saying if you condition your salvation with God or Justification before God on something you did, its works and apostacy from Grace Salvation.
Again Paul refutes that contention
Romans 4:1–5 (ESV) — 1 What then shall we say was gained by Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.” 4 Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. 5 And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness,
What was the basis of Abraham's justification?
brightfame52
Well-known member
The word was in their heart, thats regeneration, they were saved. Man cannot obey God in his natural lost condition, hes not subject to God neither indeed can be Rom 8:7-8
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
That word subject in Vs 7 is the greek word ὑποτάσσω:
- to arrange under, to subordinate
- to subject, put in subjection
- to subject one's self, obey
- to submit to one's control
- to yield to one's admonition or advice
- to obey, be subject
The unregenerate cant obey God friend, he has the nature of disobedience Eph 2:2-3
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
brightfame52
Well-known member
Oh yeah, you condition salvation on anything you do, thats works, and apostasy.
brightfame52
Well-known member
Is believing something done by the individual ? Yes or no
brightfame52
Well-known member
Paul teaches against salvation by works, and says its by grace.
Doug Brents
Well-known member
Absolutely not. When looking at Scripture, we must understand that all Scripture is equal in its power, authority, and Holiness. That means that we cannot take one verse (John 3:16 for instance) and proclaim that it is complete in what is required to receive salvation unless it is the ONLY passage that talks about salvation. If any other passage talks about salvation from sin, then it too must be considered before we decide on our doctrine. Thus, John 3:16 has equal weight with Rom 10:9-10, which has equal weight with Mark 16:16, and Matt 28:19, and Acts 2:38, and Acts 3:19, and 1 Pet 3:21, and many others. And because of this, we see that belief, and repentance, and confession of Jesus as Lord, and baptism all lead to being saved; belief alone is not the only requirement.
There is not negative inference fallacy, because there are also passages that put baptism as the point at which salvation is received (conditioned upon the other things that lead to salvation).
Col 2:11-14 says that it is during baptism that the Holy Spirit cuts our sin from us and unites us with Christ's death and resurrection.
Rom 6:1-4 makes a very similar connection between baptism and becoming a new creation.
Jesus said in John 3:5, that if you are not born of water and the Spirit then you cannot enter the Kingdom of God (the Church). Here He makes the negative (not baptized equals not saved) true.
Doug Brents
Well-known member
I can't tell you what you experienced, I wasn't there, and I am not God. I can only tell you what the Bible says. Now, I know many ministers who help the disciple out through asking the question, "Do you believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God?" Thus, a simple, "Yes." is all that is required to have "made the confession".
In those cases, I blame the teacher for not knowing and teaching the truth. Does God make allowances for this? I don't know, I am not Him. I think He may, but I would not risk your salvation or my own on it. I would teach what Scripture teaches, that one must confess verbally and publicly that Jesus is Lord.
The thief on the cross is not relevant to the discussion of New Testament salvation. He was promised paradise by Jesus before Jesus died. Jesus had the power and authority to forgive sin (Matt 9:6). And so, He was perfectly within His rights and power to forgive the thief without any other sign of faith than he had already given. By the way, the thief did recognize Jesus' authority when he said, "Remember me when you come into your Kingdom (or Kingship)."
In many translations Acts 8:37 is cut out. But in some, the verse reads, "If you believe with all your heart, you may.” And he answered and said, “I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God."
We don't know what all he told them, because there is a lot that he said that is not recorded (Acts 2:40).
There is a lot that was done that was not recorded. Scripture is not a detailed accounting of everything that was done. It is not a novel.
Ananias told Paul to be baptized, "calling on the name of the Lord".
See response above.
Doug Brents
Well-known member
You are taking passages out of context, twisting what they mean when taken in proper context, and applying them in a manner that is neither Biblical nor correct. Just as Satan did when he tempted Jesus saying, "If You are the Son of God, throw Yourself down; for it is written:
‘He will give His angels orders concerning You’;
and
‘On their hands they will lift You up,
So that You do not strike Your foot against a stone.’"
Yes, these passages are Scripture, but they are taken out of context and are not rightly used by Satan, just as you are not rightly using the Scriptures you are citing.
brightfame52
Well-known member
Oh no, the unregenerate cant obey God, and Gods Gospel is to be obeyed Rom 10:16
But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
But you can look at each verse and say it is true.
Now were we to proclaim salvation requires faith, confession and baptism
What do you do with the verse which state we are saved through faith?
What do you do with the verses which mention faith and baptism, but not confession?
What do you do with verses which mention faith and confession, but not baptism?
Can you argue they are all false?
No you must assume all three are true.
Thus you cannot deny one with faith is saved.
Yes it is the negative inference fallacy and I can post multiple verses which point to faith as the point of salvation
Example
John 5:24 (NASB 2020) — 24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, the one who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
Are you going to proclaim it false?
Indeed he does and he teaches faith is not works salvation.
And that faith establishes that it by grace
Romans 4:16 (ESV) — 16 That is why it depends on faith, in order that the promise may rest on grace and be guaranteed to all his offspring—not only to the adherent of the law but also to the one who shares the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all,
brightfame52
Well-known member
So if you condition salvation on something you do, you believe contrary to Pauls doctrine.
Um faith is not about what you do but what he did.
That is what you are resting on
Your trust in Him
Paul affirmed what I claimed
Romans 4:1–16 (ESV) — 1 What then shall we say was gained by Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.” 4 Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. 5 And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness, 6 just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works: 7 “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, and whose sins are covered; 8 blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not count his sin.” 9 Is this blessing then only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? For we say that faith was counted to Abraham as righteousness. 10 How then was it counted to him? Was it before or after he had been circumcised? It was not after, but before he was circumcised. 11 He received the sign of circumcision as a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. The purpose was to make him the father of all who believe without being circumcised, so that righteousness would be counted to them as well, 12 and to make him the father of the circumcised who are not merely circumcised but who also walk in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham had before he was circumcised. 13 For the promise to Abraham and his offspring that he would be heir of the world did not come through the law but through the righteousness of faith. 14 For if it is the adherents of the law who are to be the heirs, faith is null and the promise is void. 15 For the law brings wrath, but where there is no law there is no transgression. 16 That is why it depends on faith, in order that the promise may rest on grace and be guaranteed to all his offspring—not only to the adherent of the law but also to the one who shares the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all,
Luke does as well
Acts 16:30–31 (ESV) — 30 Then he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” 31 And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.”
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