"Works Salvation"

[Soyeong]

You've got the cart before the horse my friend. If you try to keep the commandments of God with your flesh that is keeping the letter of the law. We must first repent of the desire to sin and turn to Christ to take part in the crucifixion of our flesh. The New Covenant is not just adding Jesus to the Old Covenant. The New Covenant is brand new in every way.

In Romans 8:4-7, those who walk in the Spirit are contrasted with those who have minds set on the flesh who are enemies of God who refuse to submit to His law, and in Galatians 5:19-23, everything listed as works of the flesh that are against the Spirit are also against God's law, while all of the fruits of the Spirit are in accordance with it. Christ is God's word made flesh, so us embodying God's word through following his example is the way to turn to him. In Jeremiah 31:33, the New Covenant involves God putting the Mosaic Law in our minds and writing it on our hearts, and in Ezekiel 36:26-27, the New Covenant involves God removing our hearts of stone, giving us hearts of flesh, and sending His Spirit to lead us to obey the Mosaic Law.

Romans 7:5-6
5 For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death. 6 But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.

In Romans 7:22-23, Paul said that he delighted in obeying the Mosaic Law, but contrasted that with the law of sin that held him captive, so verses that are interpreted as referring to the Mosaic Law should make sense for them to be referring to something that Paul delighted in doing. For example, it would be absurd to interpret those verses as referring to the Mosaic Law as if Paul delighted in stirring up sinful passions in order to bear fruit unto death or as if he delighted in being held captive to sin, but rather it is the law of sin that he described as holding him captive.

In Romans 7:7, the Law of God is not sinful, but is how we know what sin is, however, a law that stirs up sinful passions in order to bear fruit unto death is a law that is sinful, so Romans 7:5 and 7:7 can't both be referring to the same law. When the Law of God reveals our sin, then that leads us to repent and causes sin to decrease, but the law of sin is sinful and causes sin to increase. So verses that refer to a law that is sinful, that causes sin to increase, or that hinders us from obeying the Law of God should be interpreted as referring to the law of sin, such as Romans 5:20, Romans 6:14, Romans 7:4-6, Galatians 2:19, Galatians 5:16-18, and 1 Corinthians 15:56.

1 Peter 1:16 about being holy has to do with maturing in all of the fruit of the Spirit. 2 Peter 1:5-11. But first comes righteousness where Jesus removes lawless sin from our nature.

In 1 Peter 1:16, is making a quote from Leviticus, so what he was quoting from is directly relevant to the point that he was making and should not be ignored. The Law of Moses was given by God and the Spirit is God, so it is the Law of the Spirit, which is why all of the fruits of the Spirit are in accordance with it, so maturing in all of the fruits of the Spirit does not refer to something other than what Peter was quoting from.

 

[Rowan]

The question here is, Is God the standard maker? or Are you the standard maker? God's standard says that we are saved when we obey Him in repenting of our sins (Acts 3:19), Confess Jesus' name as Lord (Rom 10:9-10), and are baptized in His name (Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38). In baptism the Holy Spirit takes action to cut our sin from us (Col 2:11-14), unite us with Jesus' death and resurrection (Rom 6:1-4), and make us part of the Bride (the Church)(Eph 5:25-27).

You may have thought you were forgiven, and you may have stopped living a destructive life, but so did many people who Jesus spoke of in Matt 7:21-23). But God will tell them, "I NEVER knew you." It does not matter that you know Him. What matters is that He know you. If He doesn't, then you are still lost.

It's not your call. You have no way of knowing whether someone is saved or not from reading a few sentences in a post where they claim to be saved. How do we know you're saved? How do we know you're not just a Deceiver? That kind of stuff can go both ways. And they're both wrong.
looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, That's what I'm talking about.

 

[Azriel]

Once good works are introduced into the salvation process, salvation is no longer by faith alone; it is by faith and works. To imply that salvation is maintained by good works, or by not sinning is to take the daily burden of our salvation upon ourselves. In that case, there will be room for boasting in heaven.

 

[Rockson]

Once good works are introduced into the salvation process, salvation is no longer by faith alone; it is by faith and works. To imply that salvation is maintained by good works, or by not sinning is to take the daily burden of our salvation upon ourselves. In that case, there will be room for boasting in heaven.

The question is though as it always will be what constitutes man seeking to be saved by "good works" for salvation in a Biblical context? I'd say it's seeking to be saved by good works by the keeping of the Jewish law. Some claim if one says they use their will and they choose for God that's something they've done and the want to rule that out. I say one has to choose to put their faith in Jesus to save them and that it's not automatic.

 

[Soyeong]

Once good works are introduced into the salvation process, salvation is no longer by faith alone; it is by faith and works. To imply that salvation is maintained by good works, or by not sinning is to take the daily burden of our salvation upon ourselves. In that case, there will be room for boasting in heaven.

Do you deny that someone can act in a way that expresses faith? We are not required to have first done works in order to become saved as the result, but doing works is intrinsically part of the concept of being saved from not doing them. For example, honoring our parent is intrinsically part of the concept of being saved from not honoring our parents. When someone honors their parents, they are express faith, and it is by that faith that we are saved. Our good works testify that God is good, which is why our good works bring glory to Him (Matthew 5:16), and by testifying that God is good, we are also expressing the belief that God is good, or in other words, we are believing in or having faith in Him, and is by that faith that we are being saved from not doing good works.

 

[Doug Brents]

It's not your call. You have no way of knowing whether someone is saved or not from reading a few sentences in a post where they claim to be saved. How do we know you're saved? How do we know you're not just a Deceiver? That kind of stuff can go both ways. And they're both wrong.
looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, That's what I'm talking about.

When someone says that all they did was believe and they were saved as Obadiah did below:

Four and a half decades was a long time ago but if I remember correctly when I got saved all I did was believe.

and Scripture clearly says that one must Repent (Acts 3:19), Confess Jesus as Lord (Rom 10:9-10), and be baptized (Acts 2:38, Mark 16:16) in order to be saved, then it is very clear that the person is deceived, and was not really saved when they thought they were. Now, if he has since obeyed the Gospel then I have no problem accepting that he is saved. But when he tells me directly that he had not obeyed the Gospel when he thought he was saved, then I know that he was not saved at that point.

 

[Doug Brents]

Once good works are introduced into the salvation process, salvation is no longer by faith alone; it is by faith and works. To imply that salvation is maintained by good works, or by not sinning is to take the daily burden of our salvation upon ourselves. In that case, there will be room for boasting in heaven.

Repentance, confession of Jesus as Lord, and baptism are not "good works". They are actions of obedience which God has placed as prerequisites to reception of salvation. They are not meritorious in any way, and so do not "earn" salvation in any way.

 

[Azriel]

Repentance, confession of Jesus as Lord, and baptism are not "good works". They are actions of obedience which God has placed as prerequisites to reception of salvation. They are not meritorious in any way, and so do not "earn" salvation in any way.

Baptism can't save you. Baptism is an outward sign of an inward conversion. If you're counting on baptism to save you you have made it at work. When you believe in the saving Grace of Jesus you are repenting. Any prerequisites that you add to what Jesus has done in the cross is work salvation.

 

[Azriel]

When someone says that all they did was believe and they were saved as Obadiah did below:

and Scripture clearly says that one must Repent (Acts 3:19), Confess Jesus as Lord (Rom 10:9-10), and be baptized (Acts 2:38, Mark 16:16) in order to be saved, then it is very clear that the person is deceived, and was not really saved when they thought they were. Now, if he has since obeyed the Gospel then I have no problem accepting that he is saved. But when he tells me directly that he had not obeyed the Gospel when he thought he was saved, then I know that he was not saved at that point.

Relieving is repenting. You're believing that you're Old way of life doesn't work in the new life the resurrected life the born again life that Jesus gives will work. BAM Repentance in a nutshell.

 

[Azriel]

Do you deny that someone can act in a way that expresses faith? We are not required to have first done works in order to become saved as the result, but doing works is intrinsically part of the concept of being saved from not doing them. For example, honoring our parent is intrinsically part of the concept of being saved from not honoring our parents. When someone honors their parents, they are express faith, and it is by that faith that we are saved. Our good works testify that God is good, which is why our good works bring glory to Him (Matthew 5:16), and by testifying that God is good, we are also expressing the belief that God is good, or in other words, we are believing in or having faith in Him, and is by that faith that we are being saved from not doing good works.

I'm not worried about how someone else acts and how they express their faith. I'm not part of the salvation Police. You do it however you want to do it. It's your thing, I can't tell you how to work out your salvation.

We are being saved from not doing good works? Wow

 

[Azriel]

The question is though as it always will be what constitutes man seeking to be saved by "good works" for salvation in a Biblical context? I'd say it's seeking to be saved by good works by the keeping of the Jewish law. Some claim if one says they use their will and they choose for God that's something they've done and the want to rule that out. I say one has to choose to put their faith in Jesus to save them and that it's not automatic.

That's that's the problem it's not a matter of good works. It's a matter of pride in wanting to help and God out with our salvation. Man's pride insist that he has a hand in it somehow some way. That we just can't accept the free gift of salvation, we want to earn it so we can take pride in the wonderful job we've done. Like the Pharisees.

 

[Hosanna]

That's that's the problem it's not a matter of good works. It's a matter of pride in wanting to help and God out with our salvation. Man's pride insist that he has a hand in it somehow some way. That we just can't accept the free gift of salvation, we want to earn it so we can take pride in the wonderful job we've done. Like the Pharisees.

Correct.

One of man’s basic desires is to be in control of his own destiny, and that includes his eternal destiny. Salvation by works appeals to man’s pride and his desire to be in control. Being saved by works appeals to that desire far more than the idea of being saved by faith alone.

The truth of the situation.

Why is salvation by works the predominantly held viewpoint? | GotQuestions.org

Why is salvation by works the predominantly held viewpoint? Why do so many people believe that we can be saved by works?

www.gotquestions.org

 

[Obadiah]

Paul defines justification as God’s declaration that sinners who believe in Christ are fully pardoned, acquitted of all guilt and are in a right legal standing before him, on the basis of what God has done in Jesus Christ.

Paul introduces justification as of central importance to the gospel and insists that all boasting should be ‘in the Lord’

30 But it is from Him that you have your life in Christ Jesus, Whom God made our Wisdom from God, [revealed to us a knowledge of the divine plan of salvation previously hidden, manifesting itself as] our Righteousness [thus making us upright and putting us in right standing with God], and our Consecration [making us pure and holy], and our Redemption [providing our ransom from eternal penalty for sin].
31 So then, as it is written, Let him who boasts and proudly rejoices and glories, boast and proudly rejoice and glory in the Lord 1 Corinthians 1:30–31

It's what Jesus has done not what we do. We just believe on what he's accomplished on the cross and accept the free gift of salvation.

 

[Soyeong]

I'm not worried about how someone else acts and how they express their faith. I'm not part of the salvation Police. You do it however you want to do it. It's your thing, I can't tell you how to work out your salvation.

We are being saved from not doing good works? Wow

I didn't suggest that you were part of the salvation police. Our salvation is from sin (Matthew 1:21) and sin is the transgression of God's law (1 John 3:4), so while we do not earn our salvation as the result of obeying God's law, living in obedience to it through faith in Jesus is nevertheless intrinsically part of the concept of him saving us from not living in obedience to it. For examples, honoring our parents is intrinsically part of the concept of Jesus saving us from not honoring our parents. In Titus 2:11-13, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, so God graciously teaching us to do those works is itself the content of His gift of saving us from not doing those works.

 

[Rockson]

That's that's the problem it's not a matter of good works. It's a matter of pride in wanting to help and God out with our salvation.

And I'm sorry but that's the problem with Calvinism. It takes what God requites men to choose life and when the man responds and say OK I'll do so they level a claim they really didn't choose LIFE at all.....it was really imposed upon them, which would be what irresistible grace would mean.

Man's pride insist that he has a hand in it somehow some way.

If a rescue boat with a life guard throws out a life jacket or round float to someone drowning the one who reaches out and grabs it and his life is saved doesn't claim later he had a part in saving himself. He gives all praise to the rescuer. Now he still had to reach out and grab the float but no way does he take any of the credit. Calvanism would claim he would need to.

 

[Azriel]

Paul defines justification as God’s declaration that sinners who believe in Christ are fully pardoned, acquitted of all guilt and are in a right legal standing before him, on the basis of what God has done in Jesus Christ.

Paul introduces justification as of central importance to the gospel and insists that all boasting should be ‘in the Lord’

30 But it is from Him that you have your life in Christ Jesus, Whom God made our Wisdom from God, [revealed to us a knowledge of the divine plan of salvation previously hidden, manifesting itself as] our Righteousness [thus making us upright and putting us in right standing with God], and our Consecration [making us pure and holy], and our Redemption [providing our ransom from eternal penalty for sin].
31 So then, as it is written, Let him who boasts and proudly rejoices and glories, boast and proudly rejoice and glory in the Lord 1 Corinthians 1:30–31

It's what Jesus has done not what we do. We just believe on what he's accomplished on the cross and accept the free gift of salvation.

I hear you. Paul presents the truth of justification by faith alone as the crucial and initial element in the sinner’s redemptive relationship with God through Jesus Christ. It is not to be confused with reconciliation, restoration, liberation or transformation or Sanctification..

The mystery of sanctification is that the perfections of Jesus Christ are imparted to me, not gradually, but instantly when by faith I enter into the realization that Jesus Christ is made unto me sanctification. Sanctification does not mean anything less than the holiness of Jesus being made mine manifestly. Oswald Chambers

 

[Soyeong]

Paul defines justification as God’s declaration that sinners who believe in Christ are fully pardoned, acquitted of all guilt and are in a right legal standing before him, on the basis of what God has done in Jesus Christ.

Paul introduces justification as of central importance to the gospel and insists that all boasting should be ‘in the Lord’

30 But it is from Him that you have your life in Christ Jesus, Whom God made our Wisdom from God, [revealed to us a knowledge of the divine plan of salvation previously hidden, manifesting itself as] our Righteousness [thus making us upright and putting us in right standing with God], and our Consecration [making us pure and holy], and our Redemption [providing our ransom from eternal penalty for sin].
31 So then, as it is written, Let him who boasts and proudly rejoices and glories, boast and proudly rejoice and glory in the Lord 1 Corinthians 1:30–31

It's what Jesus has done not what we do. We just believe on what he's accomplished on the cross and accept the free gift of salvation.

In Titus 2:11-14, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, and Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so just because we have salvation because of what he accomplished does not mean that it doe snot involve what we do.

The content of a free gift can itself be the experience of doing something, such as giving someone the opportunity to experience divine a Ferrari for an hour, where the gift requires them to do the work of driving it in order to have that experience, but where doing that work contributes nothing towards earning their gift. Similarly, the content of God's gift of eternal life is the experience of knowing God and Jesus (John 17:3) and the gift of God's law is His instructions for how to have that experience (Exodus 33:13, Matthew 7:23).

 

[Azriel]

I didn't suggest that you were part of the salvation police. Our salvation is from sin (Matthew 1:21) and sin is the transgression of God's law (1 John 3:4), so while we do not earn our salvation as the result of obeying God's law, living in obedience to it through faith in Jesus is nevertheless intrinsically part of the concept of him saving us from not living in obedience to it. For examples, honoring our parents is intrinsically part of the concept of Jesus saving us from not honoring our parents. In Titus 2:11-13, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, so God graciously teaching us to do those works is itself the content of His gift of saving us from not doing those works.

I didn't say that you suggested I was part of the salvation police. We're not saved by good works we do good works because we are saved. We do want to please our Heavenly Father. I have a good understanding of lordship salvation and I'm into it.

 

[Rapture Bound]

The issue of "works salvation" eventually and inevitably revolves full circle back to the age-old dispute centering around the Latin phrase "Sola Fide" [Faith Alone]. It's become much more difficult to contend for Sola Fide in the modern day "church" climate. How so? Back in the days of the Reformation the debate was basically between the Protestants and the Roman Catholics [rejecting the Reformational perspective on Sola Fide].

Today however, the atmosphere has become all so convoluted. Many "Protestant" [and/or non- Roman Catholic] churches use and support the same arguments [heresies] that the R.C.'s used in the dispute against the early Reformers on the issue ... while, in the same breath say, "man ... those Roman Catholics teach a counterfeit Gospel message ... we need to get out there and get them saved." And perhaps just as tragic, others of them tell me, "relax man ... being a Christian is not about doctrinal truth ... it's simply about loving Jesus ... get over that meaningless Reformational theology "thingy" already" ... God help us!

 

[Obadiah]

I hear you. Paul presents the truth of justification by faith alone as the crucial and initial element in the sinner’s redemptive relationship with God through Jesus Christ. It is not to be confused with reconciliation, restoration, liberation or transformation or Sanctification..

The entire process of sanctification rests on the believer’s union with Christ by faith, whereby the virtue of Christ’s death and resurrection are made real and personal. As a result, sanctification is connected both to justification and regeneration. Justification changes a believer’s legal standing before God, but it does not change his sinful character. So in sanctification God works by the Holy Spirit to re-create a holy character in the believer that progressively corresponds to the righteousness of Christ imputed to him in justification.