"Works Salvation"

[Doug Brents]

I hope the eight times in the above post where the word "you" is used is speaking in general. Because if it is in reference to me that would be breaking the rules. Please clarify.

I cannot tell if you are saved today or not. But by your own admission you did not obey Christ 45 years ago when you believe you were saved. And Scripture says that if you did not obey Him, then you were not saved at that time. Are you saved today? I don't know. Were you saved then? NO. If that breaks the rules of this forum, then I apologize to the forum. But I will not tell a lie saying that you were saved back then just to make you feel good.

 

[Azriel]

I cannot tell if you are saved today or not. But by your own admission you did not obey Christ 45 years ago when you believe you were saved. And Scripture says that if you did not obey Him, then you were not saved at that time. Are you saved today? I don't know. Were you saved then? NO. If that breaks the rules of this forum, then I apologize to the forum. But I will not tell a lie saying that you were saved back then just to make you feel good.

How can you say to your brother, ‘Brother, let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when you yourself fail to see the plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye. Luke 6:42

 

[Doug Brents]

How can you say to your brother, ‘Brother, let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when you yourself fail to see the plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye. Luke 6:42

I have had this particular plank removed from my own eye. I am not saying I do not have others, but we are called and instructed by Christ Jesus to notice where a person is not living or speaking the truth, and call them out on it (James 5:19-20).

 

[Handaan]

Who are you to judge another’s servant? To his own master he stands or falls. Indeed, he will be made to stand, for God is able to make him stand. Romans 14:4

If we judge someone, it is because we understand nothing about the nature of God or Who He is at all! If we did have this understanding, then we wouldn’t point our finger at anyone. After all, God Himself never does this. The devil is the accuser; that’s his role! It always has been, and it always will be. Unfortunately, many Christians are taking on this role for themselves… and even being proud of it!

 

[Aeliana]

I have had this particular plank removed from my own eye. I am not saying I do not have others, but we are called and instructed by Christ Jesus to notice where a person is not living or speaking the truth, and call them out on it (James 5:19-20).

This is the wrong place for that

In Matthew 18:15-17, Jesus sets forth the fourstep process of church discipline: (1) tell him his sin alone; (2) take some witnesses; (3) tell the church; and (4) treat him as an outsider. Step One (Matt. 18:15). The process of church discipline begins on an individual level.

Church Discipline | Grace Community Church

www.gracechurch.org

 

[Doug Brents]

Who are you to judge another’s servant? To his own master he stands or falls. Indeed, he will be made to stand, for God is able to make him stand. Romans 14:4

If we judge someone, it is because we understand nothing about the nature of God or Who He is at all! If we did have this understanding, then we wouldn’t point our finger at anyone. After all, God Himself never does this. The devil is the accuser; that’s his role! It always has been, and it always will be. Unfortunately, many Christians are taking on this role for themselves… and even being proud of it!

"Brothers and sisters, even if a person is caught in any wrongdoing, you who are spiritual are to restore such a person in a spirit of gentleness; each one looking to yourself, so that you are not tempted as well. 2 Bear one another’s burdens, and thereby fulfill the law of Christ." Gal 6:1-2

How can we obey this command if, as you say, we do not judge? We are called to judge in righteousness, not to allow a person who claims brotherhood with us to speak untruths.

 

[Aeliana]

"Brothers and sisters, even if a person is caught in any wrongdoing, you who are spiritual are to restore such a person in a spirit of gentleness; each one looking to yourself, so that you are not tempted as well. 2 Bear one another’s burdens, and thereby fulfill the law of Christ." Gal 6:1-2

How can we obey this command if, as you say, we do not judge? We are called to judge in righteousness, not to allow a person who claims brotherhood with us to speak untruths.

This is a discussion forum it's not church. Oh by the way I know you like to use that word "you" but that's Paul saying that.

Who are you to judge another’s servant? To his own master he stands or falls. Indeed, he will be made to stand, for God is able to make him stand. Romans 14:4

 

[Doug Brents]

This is a discussion forum it's not church.

The Church is the people of God, not a building, and not just the people that meet in a single place. All of God's people are one Church. So anyone claiming to be a Christ follower is claiming to be part of the body of Christ, and so is subject to correction per Gal:1-2.

 

[Anja]

To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everyone else, Jesus told this parable: 10 “Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee stood by himself and prayed: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other people—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.’

13 “But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, ‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner.’

14 “I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For all those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.”

Luke 18:9-14​

The Pharisee prayed about how good he was, but the tax collector asked for God's mercy as he was a sinner. Jesus said that it was the tax collector who went home justified before God.

 

[Aeliana]

The Church is the people of God, not a building, and not just the people that meet in a single place. All of God's people are one Church. So anyone claiming to be a Christ follower is claiming to be part of the body of Christ, and so is subject to correction per Gal:1-2.

That's what staff is for. But besides that everyone's welcome here. In reality churches are buildings full of people that belong to different denominations.

 

[Doug Brents]

In reality churches are buildings full of people that belong to different denominations.

No, the Church IS the people, not "buildings full of people". The building will not go to Heaven.

 

[Azriel]

No, the Church IS the people, not "buildings full of people". The building will not go to Heaven.

That's why we all need to put a brick in our back pocket. But seriously folks. Then the church is extremely divided. As you can tell from posts on Christian forums church people rarely agree on anything.

The People's Temple in Guiana, Was that full of God's people? Where a Madman was able to kill 900 people in the name of God?

 

[Hosanna]

How can you say to your brother, ‘Brother, let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when you yourself fail to see the plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye. Luke 6:42

Log-eye disease is easy to explain but hard to overcome. It’s our natural tendency to see the speck in someone else’s eye while being oblivious to the log in our own. It’s why we see and remember the worst in others while seeing and remembering only the best in ourselves. For that, we can thank Adam. Ever since his infamous fall, log-eye disease has been epidemic. So much so that Jesus famously warned us about its dangers when it comes to making judgments about others. Jesus told us not to judge others least we be judged.

To judge means: to separate, to pick out, select, choose. By implication, it means to condemn, punish—avenge, conclude. Jesus warned us not to fall into that.

One of the glaring symptoms of log eye disease Is the tendency to point out conceived faults and others and then being able to ignore our own faults when they are pointed out to us.

To judge another person shows pride. Only God knows what is in a person’s heart.

 

[Soyeong]

Faith is not works. Faith wrongly understood might be “works.” But that's not what the Bible means by faith, the Bible itself is the basis for this absolute distinction.

Salvation by faith is not salvation by works. You can deny salvation by faith by equating it with salvation by works but you would be way off page. Scripture prevents that equation. The very places we learn that salvation is not by works are the places we learn that it is by faith.

And salvation by faith is in perfect harmony with salvation by grace. So once again, it is the Scripture that teaches us this; indeed, salvation is by faith in order that it may be according to grace.

Every example of faith listed in Hebrews 11 is an example of works. In Romans 1:8, it speaks about their faith being reported all over the world and how else do you report someone's faith if not by speaking about the works that they did to practice their faith as Hebrews 11 does? This is why the Bible repeatedly connects our faith with our works. For example, in Matthew 23:23, Jesus said that faith is one of the weightier matters of the Mosaic Law. In Romans 3:31, our faith upholds God's law. In James 2:18, he would show his faith by his works. In Revelation 14:12, those who kept faith in Jesus are the same as those who kept God's commandments. In John 3:36, obeying Jesus is equated with believing in him. In Numbers 5:6, disobedience to God's law is described as breaking faith. In Hebrews 3:18-19, unbelief is equated with disobedience.

The many verses that that believing in Jesus is the way to eternal life and that obeying God's commands is the way to eternal life mean that God's commands are His instructions for how to have faith in Jesus. God is trustworthy, therefore His instructions are also trustworthy (Psalms 19:7), so the way to have faith in God is by having faith in what He has instructed. In Proverbs 3:5-7, we have a choice of whether we are going to lean on our own understanding of right and wrong by doing what is right in our own eyes or whether we are going to trust God with all of our heart to correctly divide between right and wrong by obeying His instructions, and this is what it means to have faith.

In Romans 1:5, we have received grace in order to bring about the obedience of faith. In Psalms 119:29-30, he wanted to put false ways far from him, for God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His law, and he chose the way of faithfulness by setting it before him, so this has always been the one and only way of salvation by grace through faith. In Ephesians 2:10, we are new creations in Christ to do good works, so while we do not earn our salvation as the result of our works lest anyone should boast, doing good works in nevertheless intrinsically part of the concept of being saved from not doing good works. It is not the case that we are required to have first done a certain amount of works in order to become saved as the result as through we could earn our salvation as a wage, but that works are the way to practice faith and it is by that faith that we are saved. Our obedience to God's law is about God giving the gift of salvation to us, not about us earning our salvation as a wage from God as the result of our works.

 

[Azriel]

Log-eye disease is easy to explain but hard to overcome. It’s our natural tendency to see the speck in someone else’s eye while being oblivious to the log in our own. It’s why we see and remember the worst in others while seeing and remembering only the best in ourselves. For that, we can thank Adam. Ever since his infamous fall, log-eye disease has been epidemic. So much so that Jesus famously warned us about its dangers when it comes to making judgments about others. Jesus told us not to judge others least we be judged.

To judge means: to separate, to pick out, select, choose. By implication, it means to condemn, punish—avenge, conclude. Jesus warned us not to fall into that.

One of the glaring symptoms of log eye disease Is the tendency to point out conceived faults and others and then being able to ignore our own faults when they are pointed out to us.

To judge another person shows pride. Only God knows what is in a person’s heart.

It is somewhat similar to work salvation in this way:

Those that adhere to works salvation may say "look at the work I've done, I deserve my salvation.... But that other guy over there I'm glad I'm not like him he barely does any work at all and what he does do isn't pleasing in God's sight." Oh wait that's in the Bible. It was posted above.

Luke 18:9-14​

The Pharisee prayed about how good he was, but the tax collector asked for God's mercy as he was a sinner. Jesus said that it was the tax collector who went home justified before God.

 

[Azriel]

Every example of faith listed in Hebrews 11 is an example of works. In Romans 1:8, it speaks about their faith being reported all over the world and how else do you report someone's faith if not by speaking about the works that they did to practice their faith as Hebrews 11 does? This is why the Bible repeatedly connects our faith with our works. For example, in Matthew 23:23, Jesus said that faith is one of the weightier matters of the Mosaic Law. In Romans 3:31, our faith upholds God's law. In James 2:18, he would show his faith by his works. In Revelation 14:12, those who kept faith in Jesus are the same as those who kept God's commandments. In John 3:36, obeying Jesus is equated with believing in him. In Numbers 5:6, disobedience to God's law is described as breaking faith. In Hebrews 3:18-19, unbelief is equated with disobedience.

The many verses that that believing in Jesus is the way to eternal life and that obeying God's commands is the way to eternal life mean that God's commands are His instructions for how to have faith in Jesus. God is trustworthy, therefore His instructions are also trustworthy (Psalms 19:7), so the way to have faith in God is by having faith in what He has instructed. In Proverbs 3:5-7, we have a choice of whether we are going to lean on our own understanding of right and wrong by doing what is right in our own eyes or whether we are going to trust God with all of our heart to correctly divide between right and wrong by obeying His instructions, and this is what it means to have faith.

In Romans 1:5, we have received grace in order to bring about the obedience of faith. In Psalms 119:29-30, he wanted to put false ways far from him, for God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His law, and he chose the way of faithfulness by setting it before him, so this has always been the one and only way of salvation by grace through faith. In Ephesians 2:10, we are new creations in Christ to do good works, so while we do not earn our salvation as the result of our works lest anyone should boast, doing good works in nevertheless intrinsically part of the concept of being saved from not doing good works. It is not the case that we are required to have first done a certain amount of works in order to become saved as the result as through we could earn our salvation as a wage, but that works are the way to practice faith and it is by that faith that we are saved. Our obedience to God's law is about God giving the gift of salvation to us, not about us earning our salvation as a wage from God as the result of our works.

Actually I'm totally into lordship salvation. So the last line of your post I'm in total agreement with. It's pretty simple really we are saved to do good works we're not saved by good works. It's in the Bible. Good works like spreading the gospel, love and one another. Help widows and orphans. You know, that kind of stuff. I would go so far as to say those that do that are going to get a reward in heaven when we are judged there for what we've done with our salvation.

According to the Bible, Christians will not face any judgment for their sins1. Christ died to take away our sins, once and for all. As a result, we have passed from judgment into new life in Christ, and there is now no condemnation for us. The saints of the Most High are to have the judgment work committed to them, but before this is placed in their hands, they are themselves to be judged by God the Father. This judgment, also called the Judgment of the Bema, is for the body of Christ only, the church, and it will take place in heaven immediately after the rapture of the church and the resurrection of the believers who have died in the Lord.

 

[charismaticlady]

This subject should be the difference between works vs. Spirit.

To receive the Spirit of Christ and become born of God you must recognize the sin in your nature and repent of those desires to sin, and that Jesus can take away those desires and the sin that follows. It is then that Christ takes away all the sin in our nature along with the desire to sin. You are now free to be and practice righteousness. All these truths are in 1 John 3, one of the most important chapters in the New Testament.

Once you are free from those major sins against the laws of God, now grow and mature in the fruit of the Spirit that can cause minor sins. 2 Peter 1:5-7.

Don't be deceived regarding those who only know doctrines of demons against practicing the righteousness Jesus makes you. During the first century when Paul was speaking against "works', those works were the ceremonial practices of Jews regarding holy days, meats and circumcision which were all done by the letter of the law. Christians practice all of these by the Spirit of those laws in Jesus.

 

[Azriel]

This subject should be the difference between works vs. Spirit.

To receive the Spirit of Christ and become born of God you must recognize the sin in your nature and repent of those desires to sin, and that Jesus can take away those desires and the sin that follows. It is then that Christ takes away all the sin in our nature along with the desire to sin. You are now free to be and practice righteousness. All these truths are in 1 John 3, one of the most important chapters in the New Testament.

Once you are free from those major sins against the laws of God, now grow and mature in the fruit of the Spirit that can cause minor sins. 2 Peter 1:5-7.

Don't be deceived regarding those who only know doctrines of demons against practicing the righteousness Jesus makes you. During the first century when Paul was speaking against "works', those works were the ceremonial practices of Jews regarding holy days, meats and circumcision which were all done by the letter of the law. Christians practice all of these by the Spirit of those laws in Jesus.

 

[Soyeong]

This subject should be the difference between works vs. Spirit.

To receive the Spirit of Christ and become born of God you must recognize the sin in your nature and repent of those desires to sin, and that Jesus can take away those desires and the sin that follows. It is then that Christ takes away all the sin in our nature along with the desire to sin. You are now free to be and practice righteousness. All these truths are in 1 John 3, one of the most important chapters in the New Testament.

Once you are free from those major sins against the laws of God, now grow and mature in the fruit of the Spirit that can cause minor sins. 2 Peter 1:5-7.

Don't be deceived regarding those who only know doctrines of demons against practicing the righteousness Jesus makes you. During the first century when Paul was speaking against "works', those works were the ceremonial practices of Jews regarding holy days, meats and circumcision which were all done by the letter of the law. Christians practice all of these by the Spirit of those laws in Jesus.

Paul was a servant of God, so he should not be interpreted as speaking against obeying any of His commands. In Acts 5:32, the Spirit has been given to those who obey God, so obedience to God is part of the way to receive the Spirit, however, Galatians 3:1-2 denies that "works of the law" are part of the way to receive the Spirit, therefore that phrase does not refer to obedience to any of God's commands. In 1 Peter 1:16 we are told to be holy for God is holy, which is a quote from Leviticus where God was giving instructions for how to do that, such as by keeping His Sabbaths holy (Leviticus 19:2-3) and by refraining from eating unclean animals (Leviticus 11:44-45).

 

[charismaticlady]

Paul was a servant of God, so he should not be interpreted as speaking against obeying any of His commands. In Acts 5:32, the Spirit has been given to those who obey God, so obedience to God is part of the way to receive the Spirit, however, Galatians 3:1-2 denies that "works of the law" are part of the way to receive the Spirit, therefore that phrase does not refer to obedience to any of God's commands. In 1 Peter 1:16 we are told to be holy for God is holy, which is a quote from Leviticus where God was giving instructions for how to do that, such as by keeping His Sabbaths holy (Leviticus 19:2-3) and by refraining from eating unclean animals (Leviticus 11:44-45).

You've got the cart before the horse my friend. If you try to keep the commandments of God with your flesh that is keeping the letter of the law. We must first repent of the desire to sin and turn to Christ to take part in the crucifixion of our flesh. The New Covenant is not just adding Jesus to the Old Covenant. The New Covenant is brand new in every way.

Romans 7:5-6
5 For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death. 6 But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.

1 Peter 1:16 about being holy has to do with maturing in all of the fruit of the Spirit. 2 Peter 1:5-11. But first comes righteousness where Jesus removes lawless sin from our nature.