"Works Salvation"

[FreeInChrist]

No, I am not going by the wrong standard. The question is, "Did Jesus misspeak when he described being born again as being born of water and Spirit?" I say he did not. In the phrase, "born of water and Spirit" in John 3:5 is what Jesus meant by being born again in John 3:3. Therefore the water in verse 5 cannot be referring to physical birth and must mean something else.

What did Jesus mean by following up with the word flesh in verse 6?

Start at John 3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

Comment. I would say there are very few on this or other "Christian " forums that would disagree with this statement.

John 3:4 Nicodemus said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born, can he?”

Comment. Nick was understandable not sure what Jesus was saying and he had only a child birth to go on when he heard born again.

John 3:5 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless someone is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

Comment. Jesus repeats being born of water and the Spirit. What does Jesus not say to Nick? Anyone? He did not say Nico, Old boy. You are a pharisee and you understand what a Mikveh is for , but I am not talking about a Mikveh I am talking about a baptism in my name (at that time they were baptised in Jesus name)

John 3:6 “That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Comment. Jesus goes on to confirm he is not speaking of a baptism but that of a natural birth.

Jumping to John 3:7 “Do not be amazed that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’

Comment. And never again hints at water.... he is into the "Spirit"

John 3:8“The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

Comment . And Jesus ends the discussion right here. IT IS THE SPIRITUAL REBIRTH THAT IS THE ONE THAT COUNTS. AND A SPIRITUAL REBIRTH DOES NOT REQUIRE WATER

 

[brightfame52]

Nothing in the Bible says he was saved

Sure it does, read my post already. He was a saved, justified man that feared God. A man or women that fears God is saved.

 

[brightfame52]

Not according to the Bible.

Yes you promoting ordinance keeping salvation, that the beast religion, Salvation is through the Grace of our Lord Jesus Christ Acts 15:11

But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

By His Obedience Rom 5:19

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

 

[Studyman]

@Studyman

So, if the law was added, till the true lamb of God came, did it truly have power to put away sins? Please consider and answer if you can:

There is no "If the Law was Added" to God's Commandments, Statutes and Judgments Red. There was a LAW that Abraham didn't have, a Priesthood Covenant that was ADDED to God's Commandments, Statutes and Laws, until the High Priest "After the Order of Melchizedek" should come.

Did this "LAW" or any Law take away sins? Of course not.

According to the Law, it was the "Priest" that provided for the Forgiveness. " and the priest shall make an atonement for him, and it shall be forgiven him". You can read it in your own Bible, "if you can".

The guilty man was required to offer for his sins something of value to him. Not because, as the deceivers of this world "who call Jesus Lord, Lord promote, "to Earn forgiveness". But to teach them the importance of yielding oneself to the God and Father of all, who knows better than us what we have need of. And to show how extremely wicked and evil rejecting and transgressing God's Law is, as Paul teaches, " that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful".

Here is what Christ told the mainstream preachers of Malachi's time, who refused to freely offer to God their most treasured possession.

Mal.1:6 A son honoureth his father, and a servant his master: if then I be a father, where is mine honour? and if I be a master, where is my fear? saith the LORD of hosts unto you, O priests, that despise my name. And ye say, Wherein have we despised thy name?

7 Ye "offer" polluted bread upon mine altar; and ye say, Wherein have we polluted thee? In that ye say, "The table of the LORD is contemptible." (This is you accusing God of placing on the necks of men who trust him, LAWS impossible to obey, )

8 And if ye offer the blind for sacrifice, "is it not evil"? and if ye offer the lame and sick, is it not evil? offer it now unto thy governor; will he be pleased with thee, or accept thy person? saith the LORD of hosts.

Here is what God said to those who would dishonor Him with their polluted offerings.

9 And now, I pray you, beseech God that he will be gracious unto us: this hath been by your means: will he regard your persons? saith the LORD of hosts.

10 Who is there even among you that would shut the doors for nought? neither do ye kindle fire on mine altar for nought. I have no pleasure in you, saith the LORD of hosts, neither will I accept an offering at your hand.

11 For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name shall be great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense shall be offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name shall be great among the heathen, saith the LORD of hosts.

12 But ye have profaned it, in that ye say, The table of the LORD is polluted; and the fruit thereof, even his meat, is contemptible.

13 Ye said also, Behold, what a weariness is it! and ye have snuffed at it, saith the LORD of hosts; and ye brought that which was torn, and the lame, and the sick; thus ye brought an offering: should I accept this of your hand? saith the LORD.

14 But cursed be the deceiver, which hath in his flock a male, and voweth, and sacrificeth unto the Lord a corrupt thing: for I am a great King, saith the LORD of hosts, and my name is dreadful among the heathen.

I don't write these things to you Red, but for those reading along. Is the Christ "of the Bible" not our High Priest? Shall we not freely offer to God through Him, our best and most treasured possession? Isn't the Kingdom of God a great treasure worth Seeking with all our heart? What do we really "own" that is ours alone to offer to God?

What do we have to offer that is ours, that would create in us a contrite and broken heart?

You won't find the answer in AI or some preacher that has transformed himself into an apostle of Christ.

But a man should know the answer to this question.

The law and its sacrifices "were" types, shadows, and symbols of the future sacrifice of Christ. While they were means of expiation by which the patriarchs testified faith, only the blood of Christ had the actual efficacy to wash away sin.

The Priesthood Covenant with Levi, and it's animal sacrifices is the Law that was Added, "Till the Seed should come", 430 years after Abraham. God's definition of Sin, Holy, Clean, and Good has not changed. Mankind has always been seduced by their own fleshy desires. From the very beginning we are told, "If thou doest well", shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him"

The deceiver would have us believe this God is a liar, that we have no capacity to do well or not do well, that God decides by some random chance drawing who HE will accept and who HE will reject, as you preach to anyone who will listen. I advocate that men turn away from this world's religions, their righteousness, their high days and traditions, that you have adopted Red, and are here to justify and promote. And turn to God instead and Yield ourself to God, to be learned of the Father, who will, by His Grace alone, give us to His Son for cleansing and saving.

The same Blood that removed Abraham and David and Paul's Sin, is the same Blood that I hope, that I have Faith will remove mine.

1 Peter 1: 13 Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;

14 As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance: 15 But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; 16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.

• Weakness of the Jews' temporary religion: It is so clear that animal blood cannot cleanse consciences or remove the guilt of sin. If they could, they would have ceased to be offered.
• Symbolic Value: The sacrifices under the law were not worthless; they were valid "symbols" or "types" through which believers could "truly" (sacramentally) receive pardon.
• Retrospective Merit: The power of Christ's one sacrifice on the cross extends backward to the beginning of the world and forward to the end, making it the only true sacrifice. The Old Testament believers were by Christ faith and obedience justified as we are, not by the efficacy of animal blood itself.

Men of God from 1450-1800 (through the blessing of the printing press invention) all taught:

• Temporary and Typical: They explains that sacrifices under the law only took away sin typically (representing something else), not really (or literally). They served as a "figure" or "shadow" for the time being, pointing forward to the true, ultimate sacrifice of Christ.
• A "Remembrance" of Sin: Rather than removing sin, They all preached that the yearly repetition of these sacrifices actually served as a "remembrance of sins" afresh.
• The Inefficacy of Law: They all with one voice maintains that the legal sacrifices could not perfect the worshippers, nor could they cleanse or purge the conscience from the guilt of sin.
• Contrast with Christ's Sacrifice: In contrast, they all argues that by his one offering, Christ has actually put away sin, removed our sins from the sight of God, and secured a complete atonement that gives to of God's elect total peace in their conscience that their sin are removed from them as far as the east is from the west, never to be remember again, never.

No one in this thread ever said, suggested or even implied that animal blood washes away sins. You create strawmen, then argue against them.

"For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give it: thou delightest not in burnt offering. The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise."

 

[brightfame52]

Again, Matthew's account of the great commission, Christians are made by being taught and water baptized. No such thing as an untaught unbaptized Christian.

No disciples are made by being taught and water baptism. Jesus told them to make disciples of men Matt 28:19-20

19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

The word teach, not save, is the word μαθητεύσατε:

1. (intransitively) to become a pupil
2. (transitively) to disciple, i.e. enroll as scholar

Cognate: 3100 mathēteúō (from 3101 /mathētḗs, "disciple") – to disciple, i.e. helping someone to progressively learn the Word of God to become a matured, growing disciple (literally, "a learner," a true Christ-follower); to train (develop) in the truths of Scripture and the lifestyle required, i.e. helping a believer learn to be a disciple of Christ in belief and practice. See 3101 (mathētēs).

Jesus has already saved them, He is commanding the Apostles to teach and disciple them He has saved, like Cornelius Jesus had already made him clean Acts 10:15


And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.

That word cleansed is aorist tense katharizō:
in a moral sense

1. to free from defilement of sin and from faults
2. to purify from wickedness
3. to free from guilt of sin, to purify
4. to consecrate by cleansing or purifying

Same word pertaining to Jesus work Eph 5:26

That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,

14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

Cornelius was already zealous of good works when Peter came to him and purified, cleansed by Christ . Where not these good works b4 God Acts 10:2

2 A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway.

He gave much alms to the people, and he was a praying man, always. Did God recognize and honor his prayers ?

Acts 10:4

4 And when he looked on him, he was afraid, and said, What is it, Lord? And he said unto him, Thy prayers and thine alms are come up for a memorial before God.

More than likely he had prayed for more light about Christ for God answred him as a just man Prov 4:18

18 ;But the path of the just is as the shining light, that shineth more and more unto the perfect day.

And Gods word says he was a just man Acts 10:22

22 And they said, Cornelius the centurion, a just man, and one that feareth God, and of good report among all the nation of the Jews, was warned from God by an holy angel to send for thee into his house, and to hear words of thee.

So Prov 4:18 applied to him ! A Just man is a saved man.

 

[brightfame52]

"If thou doest well", shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him"

So was God telling him salvation is by him doing well ? Jesus told the young rich ruler he would inherit eternal life if he did well also Matt 19:16-21

16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?

17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,

19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

20 The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?

21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

 

[Red Baker]

Verse 5 of John 3 explains verse 3. That is to be born again is to be born of water and Spirit. If born of water is to be born of flesh, then Jesus is definitely saying that being born of the flesh is a condition for being born again. But of course, that makes no sense at all. Thus born of flesh has nothing to do with it and Jesus would never have explained "born again" as born of flesh. So clearly born of water must mean something else.

Greetings Jim,

First, I try to send you an email and it came back to my surprise ~ have you changed your email? I have written a small booklet of Mystery, Babylon the great and wanted to share it with you. Please send it to me my just emailing me and say hello.

Actually my friend, verse five does not explain verse three, no way. Verse three explains how a man of the Pharisees, even one of their rulers believed that God was with Jesus, and wanted to tell him so, proving that his spirit was not like the other Pharisees who said that the miracles Jesus did, he did so through the power of the devil! Jesus clearly told him and US, that no man can see the kingdom of God (the truths of it) without first being born of God.

Jim, verse five was spoken based upon Nicodemus' pitiful reasoning concerning Jesus' words in John 3:3. In John 3:6-8, our Lord Jesus explained the new birth, which birth is by the Spirit of God alone without any other means whatsoever, including the will of the flesh and the will of man,, etc.

 

[Red Baker]

@Studyman

There is no "If the Law was Added" to God's Commandments, Statutes and Judgments Red

Your diatribe is noted as often are most of your posit.

The use of "if" in the context of Galatians 3:21 ("If a law had been given which could make alive...") is a classic example of a rhetorical or argumentative conditional, rather than a statement of uncertainty about whether the law was given

• "If" as Argumentation: Paul is not questioning the historical fact that God gave the law through Moses. Instead, he uses a hypothetical, logical setup to prove a point: If the law possessed the capability to give life (which he argues it does not), then righteousness would indeed come through it.
• "If" vs. "Since": The phrase is designed to demonstrate that the law was never meant to be a vehicle for justification, effectively saying, "Even if we assume for a moment that such a law could exist..."—a technique known as a contrary-to-fact conditional that for the sake of argument makes a concession.
• "Added Because of Transgressions": Paul argues in Galatians 3:19 that the law was added—or "superadded"—to expose and increase transgressions (make sin visible) rather than to grant life. Therefore, "if" indicates a conditional of purpose rather than doubt.

There was a LAW that Abraham didn't have, a Priesthood Covenant that was ADDED to God's Commandments, Statutes and Laws, until the High Priest "After the Order of Melchizedek" should come.

We well understand this truth, pretty sure much better than you do, just keep talking and i will prove it.

Did this "LAW" or any Law take away sins? Of course not.

Agreed and we know why...because of the weakness of man's flesh, being art enmity against God! Romans 8:2-9.

According to the Law, it was the "Priest" that provided for the Forgiveness. " and the priest shall make an atonement for him, and it shall be forgiven him". You can read it in your own Bible, "if you can".

Already addressed this above. #4,101 Why did you not refute what I posted?

And to show how extremely wicked and evil rejecting and transgressing God's Law is, as Paul teaches, " that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful".

You are wrong as always, nothing new, and pretty sure it will never change with you. The law shows and proves just how " wicked we all are by nature", when understood properly~with our new nature given freely to God's children by grace alone, on the behalf of our blessed surety. It is a schoolmaster for God's elect, to show them their need of Christ and their inability by nature to keep the law, even in one simple commandment, even as Adam and Eve disobeyed with a nature that did not have sin in its members as we all do by nature! Men like you believe man can please God without having a new nature, that man can do so, with his flesh that he received from Adam~totally disregarding Romans 7:18, etc.

Here is what Christ told the mainstream preachers of Malachi's time, who refused to freely offer to God their most treasured possession.

Mal.1:6 A son honoureth his father, and a servant his master: if then I be a father, where is mine honour? and if I be a master, where is my fear? saith the LORD of hosts unto you, O priests, that despise my name. And ye say, Wherein have we despised thy name?

7 Ye "offer" polluted bread upon mine altar; and ye say, Wherein have we polluted thee? In that ye say, "The table of the LORD is contemptible." (This is you accusing God of placing on the necks of men who trust him, LAWS impossible to obey, )

8 And if ye offer the blind for sacrifice, "is it not evil"? and if ye offer the lame and sick, is it not evil? offer it now unto thy governor; will he be pleased with thee, or accept thy person? saith the LORD of hosts.

Here is what God said to those who would dishonor Him with their polluted offerings.

9 And now, I pray you, beseech God that he will be gracious unto us: this hath been by your means: will he regard your persons? saith the LORD of hosts.

10 Who is there even among you that would shut the doors for nought? neither do ye kindle fire on mine altar for nought. I have no pleasure in you, saith the LORD of hosts, neither will I accept an offering at your hand.

11 For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name shall be great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense shall be offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name shall be great among the heathen, saith the LORD of hosts.

12 But ye have profaned it, in that ye say, The table of the LORD is polluted; and the fruit thereof, even his meat, is contemptible.

13 Ye said also, Behold, what a weariness is it! and ye have snuffed at it, saith the LORD of hosts; and ye brought that which was torn, and the lame, and the sick; thus ye brought an offering: should I accept this of your hand? saith the LORD.

14 But cursed be the deceiver, which hath in his flock a male, and voweth, and sacrificeth unto the Lord a corrupt thing: for I am a great King, saith the LORD of hosts, and my name is dreadful among the heathen.

Your verbosely is noted by using an excessive, unnecessary amount of words, as your manner often is. Men like you often communicate in a long-winded, wordy, or tedious manner, often making a message difficult to follow due to superfluous, and often repeating phrase over and over again.

I agree with the prophet Malachi, but we used them in a practical sense, never in a regenerating sense. We love serving God in the manner in which he commands us, and we do for nothing. I just finished a book and will be available very soon without charge and no copyrights,, since freely we have received, and freely we give to others, just as our Lord did.

Coming back later to finish, I have some things that I must get done. I'll be back.

 

[brightfame52]

even as Adam and Eve disobeyed with a nature that did not have sin in its members as we all do by nature!

Are you sure about that ? You dont think sin was lying silent and latent in their flesh until it was tried. I believe but Im not dogmatic that they were created innocent and upright but with a corruptible nature. What was it that appealed to Eve when she was tried ? Was it not lust ? Notice Gen 3:5-6

5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods[pride of life], knowing good and evil.

6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food[lust of the flesh], and that it was pleasant to the eyes[lust of the eyes], and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

This corresponds to Johns Epistle 1 Jn 2:16

16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

Also James 1:14-15

14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

15 ;Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

The words drawn away exelkō:

1. to draw out
2. metaph. lure forth: in hunting and fishing as game is lured from its hiding place, so man by lure is allured from the safety of self-restraint to sin. In Jas 1:14, the language of the hunting is transferred to the seduction of a harlot.

Sin was drawn out by the devil because of the untried lust or covetousness in the flesh.