"Works Salvation"
- Thread starter Seabass
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Seabass
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The context says nothing about being made righteous unconditionally.
Rom 5:8 'But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.'
Christ's death gave sinners the opportunity to be justified, it did not unconditionally justify all sinners universally.
Rom 5:9 'Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.'
We know from Rom 6:16-18 those Romans were;
1)servant of sin
2) obeyed from the heart
3) then freed from sin
Christ's death can justify those who conditionally obey Christ (Heb 5:9)
Rom 5:10
'For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.'
God did not leave man. man left God and God through Christ provided a means of reconciliation between God and man. Man has been commanded to be reconciled to God (2 Cor 5:20) and man obeys this command by obedience to the gospel of Christ, belief, repentance, confession and baptism to receive this gift of reconciliation.
2 Cor 5:19
"To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world (universal provision) unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation."
...reconciliation can only happen when sins are forgiven. Sins are not unconditionally forgiven..those who obey have sins forgiven (Acts 2:38) bringing about reconciliation.
"reconciled the world" does not teach Universalism, that all men are unconditionally reconciled to God. But that reconciliation is now made possible through Christ's death and received by those who conditionally obey Christ. Those that reject God's offer of reconciliation remain enemies of God.
If reconciliation were already unconditional and complete for every person, the whole world, there would be no need for Paul's prayer that men be reconciled, no need for the command to be reconciled, and no gospel to preach. The fact that Paul commands people to be reconciled shows that the work on God’s side is finished through Christ, but receiving reconciliation requires a response from man.
brightfame52
Active Member
The condition was the death of Christ as to why they were reconciled Rom 5:10
10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
They were far from obedience when it occurred, they were in fact enemies
A hardened criminal -- no worse than you -- sin is sin.
I suppose you think when Jesus spoke to the thief on the cross, He was speaking to you also. Wrong!
Seabass
Active Member
Where is the verse that explicitly states the thief was never baptized?
It does not exist. The thief argument has always failed for many reasons one being it is based on assumption the thief had never been baptized.
I don't think I understand that. The sin that entered the world was Adam's disobedience. None, but Adam, was affected by that. That is the whole point of Romans 5:18-19. All are affected by their own sin, not Adam's.
Seabass
Active Member
the death of Christ provides reconciliation for the whole world but the whole world will not be saved for most will not receive the offer of reconciliation by being obedient to Christ.
NOTHING says justification, reconciliation, being made righteous happen unconditionally to just a few "elect".
Christ's obedience does not mean man does not have to obey.
brightfame52
Active Member
brightfame52
Active Member
So what if he did, he was baptized while hating God and robbing folk
It wasn't. What church? Why do you even bring up the subject of baptism?
You are seriously confused. But that is normal.
brightfame52
Active Member
False Christ death reconciled them He died for Rom 5:10
10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
were reconciled is second aorist passive voice ! It was a completed action upon them
Seabass
Active Member
the context does not say he was a thief his whole life. Mk 1:5 he could have been a baptized disciple of John who later turned to a life of crime then finding himself crucified next to Christ and seeking forgiveness. From Luke's account the thief knew as much about Christ, or more, than some of CHrist's own disciples.
Since no verse explicitly states he was never baptized the thief argument fails on that one point.
brightfame52
Active Member
brightfame52
Active Member
It doesnt say he wasn't, but it says he was a thief when he was saved. 1 Cor 6 10
9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
he was most unworthy of salvation at the time Jesus saved him.
Maybe Jesus should have said, hey since you were baptized as a teen ager, good job, you saved.
That is a completely illogical statement.
Seabass
Active Member
Rom 5:10 does not say Christ died for only a few elect.
2 Cor 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, this is not Universalism.
The "we" refers to those who are now Christians in Christ that conditionally obeyed (Rom 5:1 those justified by faith) not the whole world unconditionally nor just a pre-chosen "elect".
The text itself does not say Christ died only for the elect, nor does it say reconciliation was applied to people before they believed or without any response, this is why Paul commanded men to be reconciled. That command requires a response from man.
It is like God signed (in the past aorist tense) the treaty of reconciliation and sealed it through Christ’s death while we were still enemies. But men today must accept the terms of that already signed treaty by being obedient to Christ in order to be part of that past made treaty.
The "we" in the context does not refer to some pre-selected elect but to those who have already obeyed, accepted the terms of the treaty.
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2 Cor 5:19 'To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself". Here 'reconciling' is present tense...reconciliation is taking place now and going forward. People today and going forward that obey Christ can receive reconciliation, hence reconciliation was not a 'done deal' in the past for only a select random few.
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"be ye reconciled to God", Paul commanded 'be ye reconciled' with reconciled past tense, completed action. How can Paul command people today to already (past tense) be reconciled?
Many Greek grammarians and commentators paraphrase it as: “Get reconciled to God” or “Be reconciled [now]!” It urges an immediate, wholehearted acceptance of the reconciliation God has already provided.
So the verb tenses involved in reconciliation:
--Rom 5:10: The provision (what God did in Christ for the world), made a reconciliation treaty that is already accomplished (aorist).
--2 Cor 5:19: The personal application (actually becoming reconciled) requires a response. Present tense shows people today can still receive reconciliation through obedience, not a done deal in the past for certain few.
--2 Cor 5:20 "be ye reconciled" (aorist, imperative) people today are commanded to be reconciled....do it NOW so you can say you are reconciled.
Treaty was made and signed in the past (aorist tense), offer of that treaty is now (present tense) hence men are now commanded be ye reconciled to God...do it now.
"It is like a king who has already paid the full price to end a war and signed the peace treaty (past/completed action). He then sends ambassadors to the other side saying, “Accept the peace now! Be at peace with me!” The command is not asking them to re-sign the treaty themselves — it is urging them to stop fighting and step into the peace that already exists because of what the king did." AI
brightfame52
Active Member
Seabass
Active Member
you are still making assumptions about the thief....assume he was a thief his whole life..assume he was not baptized.
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