"Works Salvation"

[Jim]

Okay. if you do well ? But he couldnt do well. He was in the flesh. He didnt have the gift of faith given him as it was given to Abel. Heb 11:4

4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.

So are you really saying that he couldn't do well because God kept him in the flesh? If not, how was he to get out of the flesh?

 

[Jim]

Say it ain’t so!
I mean, all @Red Baker did was to quote from …

• Ephesians 2:1-3 “And you were dead in your offenses and sins, in which you previously walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. Among them we too all previously lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the rest.”

No that was not all @Red Baker did. He then, the same as you, gave his own particular [and incorrect] interpretation of what that passage means.

… and if, as YOU say, Ephesians 2:1-3 is a “false doctrine”, then the rest of Ephesians 2, like …

• Ephesians 2:8-10 “For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.”

… must be “false” as well.

It is obviously not Ephesians 2:1-3 and 8 that are false. But it is definitely yours and @Red Baker 's interpretation of those verse that are false.

Therefore … “preaching is in vain … faith also is in vain … worthless … still in [our] sins … we are of all people most to be pitied.” (1 Corinthians 15:14-19)

With due respect, [particularly Red whom I consider to be a fellow believer and a good friend], I truly believe that your preaching is in vain. You preach a god who gives commands, prevents most from obeying those commands, and then punishes them for failing to obey the commands.

 

[brightfame52]

So are you really saying that he couldn't do well because God kept him in the flesh?

Yeah God didnt give him faith, he wasnt elect. He was under the curse of the law, he was a child of the devil 1 Jn 3:12

12 Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous. God knew he couldn't do well, none can,

Also Gods elect aren't favored, accepted by doing well, but according to their election by God in the beloved Eph 1:4-6

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

See Abel's Faith was in the coming seed of the women, his sacrifice evidenced it, he was given faith in Christ to find his acceptance.

 

[brightfame52]

If not, how was he to get out of the flesh?

What did Jesus tell Nicodemus ? Jn 3 You must be born again

 

[Seabass]

Jeremiah 18:7-10

"At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it;

If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them.

And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it;

If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them."

===============================

There is a basis as to why God shows mercy or not, and that basis is.........OBEDIENCE

If that nation (Nineveh), against whom I have pronounced (overthown in 40 days), turn from their evil (Nineveh repented) I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them.(And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.)

Pharaoh would not repent therefore saw no mercy.

Gen 6:9 "...Noah was a righteous man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God."
Gen 7:1 "And the LORD said unto Noah, Come thou and all thy house into the ark; for thee have I seen righteous before me in this generation."

Noah was an obedient, righteous man therefore found grace in God's eyes.

God SAW the obedient repentance of Nineveh and SAW Noah's righteous and his walk of obedience. Faith is not just a mental assent of the mind but an action, an action that could be seen by God.

 

[Studyman]

To sinners in unbelief, ask Paul 1 Tim 1:13

13 Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.

Heb. 10: 26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth "no more sacrifice for sins", 27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

 

[brightfame52]

If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them.

Thats conditional for the nation of israel, its the old covenant law, not Grace which is made known in the New Covenant.

 

[brightfame52]

Heb. 10: 26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth "no more sacrifice for sins", 27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

Okay yet that doesnt overturn what I just showed you with Paul and how God has mercy on sinners even while in unbelief.

 

[Jim]

In this discussion and others like it there is, in some who post, a really serious confusion about the words righteous and righteousness. There is the righteousness of God and there is the righteousness of man, i.e., human beings. In saving us, God transfers (by imputation) Christ's righteousness to us in His act of justification (Romans 3:21-22; 10:3; 2 Cor 5:21; Phip 3:9). This is what I would call the absolute divine righteous of God.

However, most of the references to human beings as righteous are suing the terminology in a relative sense only. How can we know there is a difference between the absolute divine righteousness of God imputed to human beings in being saved and the "lessor" relative human righteousness of ordinary human beings? The truth of all of this is perhaps worth a separate topic all of its own.

 

[Studyman]

Okay yet that doesnt overturn what I just showed you with Paul and how God has mercy on sinners even while in unbelief.

Paul said ignorance, not unbelief. When Paul was shown the truth, he believed. Had he rejected God's truth after that and willfully sinned, there is no more sacrifice, but punishment

 

[Jim]

Yeah God didnt give him faith, he wasnt elect. He was under the curse of the law, he was a child of the devil 1 Jn 3:12

I am sorry, but that is an absolutely horrific attribute to assign to God.

 

[brightfame52]

Paul said ignorance, not unbelief.

He said both 1 Tim 1:13

13 ;Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief. He also used the prep in en denoting: he was in a fixed state of unbelief

 

[brightfame52]

I am sorry, but that is an absolutely horrific attribute to assign to God.

You just cant believe

 

[Jim]

He said both 1 Tim 1:13

13 ;Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief. He also used the prep in en denoting: he was in a fixed state of unbelief

1Ti 1:12 I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who has strengthened me, because He considered me faithful, putting me into service,

 

[Jim]

You just cant believe

And you are irrational in your interpretation of God's word.

 

[brightfame52]

1Ti 1:12 I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who has strengthened me, because He considered me faithful, putting me into service,

Yeah, he made him to be faithful 1 Cor 7:25

Now concerning virgins I have no commandment of the Lord: yet I give my judgment, as one that hath obtained mercy of the Lord to be faithful.

 

[brightfame52]

And you are irrational in your interpretation of God's word.

You just cant believe it, Gods word

 

[Jim]

Yeah, he made him to be faithful 1 Cor 7:25

Now concerning virgins I have no commandment of the Lord: yet I give my judgment, as one that hath obtained mercy of the Lord to be faithful.

1Co 7:25 Now concerning virgins I have no command of the Lord, but I give an opinion as one who by the mercy of the Lord is trustworthy.

 

[brightfame52]

1Co 7:25 Now concerning virgins I have no command of the Lord, but I give an opinion as one who by the mercy of the Lord is trustworthy.

God makes a person faithful.

 

[Jim]

God makes a person faithful.

If that were true, then why would God punish anyone who is not faithful? That would be the height of injustice. And God is certainly not unjust, so that must not be true.