"Works Salvation"

[Seabass]

Phil 2:12 "Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, 13 for it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose."

God works in those who obey Him, God working in men is not capricious, random unconditional nor miraculous in nature. If God's Word commands me to do AB&C and I do AB&C then it can be clearly seen God is working in me by His word as I am conforming to that word. But if God commands me to do AB&C yet I do XY&Z then it can clearly be seen God is not working in me for I have rejected God's word to do my own will.

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AI notes: When God commands ABC but we persistently choose XYZ (disobedience, rationalizing sin, ignoring clear commands), it shows that our will is still dominated by the flesh/self rather than by God’s Word. In that case, we cannot honestly claim "God is working in me" in the sense Paul means here.

Scripture warns strongly about this:

"1 John 2:4 – "Whoever says, 'I know him,' but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth (God's word) is not in that person." (God's Word is not in that person, is not working in those that do not do what God commands)

This is why Paul sandwiches the command between Christ’s example of humble obedience (Phil 2:5-11) and warnings against grumbling/complaining (v.14). The Christian life is not effortless "let go and let God," nor is it self-powered moralism. It is Word-shaped, reverent obedience."

 

[Doug Brents]

lol,, what does that have to do with eternal salvation ?

A lot actually, but we will get to that.
Answer the question: Would the walls have still been knocked down if Israel hadn't walked around the walls as instructed?

 

[brightfame52]

A lot actually, but we will get to that.
Answer the question: Would the walls have still been knocked down if Israel hadn't walked around the walls as instructed?

It has not a thing to do with it. Eternal Salvation is through the obeying of Jesus Christ in the place and stead of Gods elect. Rom 5:19 Nothing to with walking around jerico or any other act of obedience

What you talking about is not the Gospel of Christ.

 

[Doug Brents]

It has not a thing to do with it. Eternal Salvation is through the obeying of Jesus Christ in the place and stead of Gods elect. Rom 5:19 Nothing to with walking around jerico or any other act of obedience

What you talking about is not the Gospel of Christ.

Just answer the question, regardless of whether you see the connection or not.
Would the walls have still been knocked down if Israel hadn't walked around the walls as instructed?

 

[brightfame52]

Answer the question: Would the walls have still been knocked down if Israel hadn't walked around the walls as instructed?

I dont know. Could they have not obeyed Gods command to do as instructed ? But nevertheless it had no bearing on the obedience of Christ that saves chosen sinners.

 

[Doug Brents]

I dont know. Could they have not obeyed Gods command to do as instructed?

You don't know. Ok, try this one:
Remember the widow that the prophet told to give him her last piece of bread? He told her that if she did, her food would last until the end of the famine. If she had not given him her last piece of bread, would she have survived until the end of the famine?

 

[Jim]

Okay, no problem. As long as he had already believed, and if he did, he was already born of the Spirit. Water baptism is a act of obedience to the saved.

It doesn't say that; baptism is not an act of obedience to the saved. Baptism is for the forgiveness of sin. One cannot be needing forgiveness and yet having been saved.

 

[brightfame52]

You don't know. Ok, try this one:

And you dont know either

Remember the widow that the prophet told to give him her last piece of bread? He told her that if she did, her food would last until the end of the famine. If she had not given him her last piece of bread, would she have survived until the end of the famine?

I dont know, God hasnt revealed it. I do know that God made Paul a unconditional promise regarding the ship here Acts 27:22-25

22 And now I exhort you to be of good cheer: for there shall be no loss of any man's life among you, but of the ship.

23 For there stood by me this night the angel of God, whose I am, and whom I serve,

24 Saying, Fear not, Paul; thou must be brought before Caesar: and, lo, God hath given thee all them that sail with thee.

25 Wherefore, sirs, be of good cheer: for I believe God, that it shall be even as it was told me.

Then it reads Vs 30-31

30 And as the shipmen were about to flee out of the ship, when they had let down the boat into the sea, under colour as though they would have cast anchors out of the foreship,

31 Paul said to the centurion and to the soldiers, Except these abide in the ship, ye cannot be saved.

so I believe if God gives conditions after He makes a unconditional promise, then His power causes the conditions to be performed.

 

[brightfame52]

It doesn't say that;

It doesn't have to say it

 

[Jim]

"Who has believed our report? And to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?" - Isaiah 53:1
"However, they did not all heed the good news; for Isaiah says, 'LORD, WHO HAS BELIEVED OUR REPORT?'" - Romans 10:16

I know whose report I will believe, God rather than man.

"So it is God who decides to show mercy. We can neither choose it nor work for it." - Romans 9:16 [NLT]

The mercy or hardness being discussed in Romans 9:16 is in this life. It is not about salvation or condemnation. We know that because as verses 22 and 23 says, God shows his wrath or mercy to make His power known. But neither salvation nor condemnation is showable or knowable. Neither salvation not condemnation is observable. It is only God's actions in this life that can be observed, evaluated and assessed. God's power to save or condemn is not something that can be seen and known.

 

[Jim]

It doesn't have to say it

Obviously not for you. You just make up whatever you want regardless of anything God says.

 

[brightfame52]

It doesn't say that; baptism is not an act of obedience to the saved. Baptism is for the forgiveness of sin. One cannot be needing forgiveness and yet having been saved.

Baptism in water isnt needed for forgiveness of sins, Just the shed blood of Christ for you. Matt 26:28

28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. And I know you going to run and get Acts 2:38 and the word form their means "because of " remission of sins they are commanded to be baptized in the name of Him [Jesus] who gave them forgiveness of sins Acts 5:31
31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

Lk 24 46-47

46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behooved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:

47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

On a side note back in the mid 70s I use to preach , going by Acts 2:38 that one had to get water baptized to get saved, I told all my friends and family, that there water baptism in the name of Father, Son and Holy Ghost was wrong, and they cant be saved until they get baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins. Well the Lord was merciful to me and in the late 70s He gave me repentance from that error and start teaching me about Grace.

 

[Jim]

Baptism in water isnt needed for forgiveness of sins, Just the shed blood of Christ for you. Matt 26:28

28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. And I know you going to run and get Acts 2:38 and the word form their means "because of " remission of sins they are commanded to be baptized in the name of Him [Jesus] who gave them forgiveness of sins Acts 5:31
31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

Lk 24 46-47

46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behooved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:

47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

On a side note back in the mid 70s I use to preach , going by Acts 2:38 that one had to get water baptized to get saved, I told all my friends and family, that there water baptism in the name of Father, Son and Holy Ghost was wrong, and they cant be saved until they get baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins. Well the Lord was merciful to me and in the late 70s He gave me repentance from that error and start teaching me about Grace.

All of that is pure Garbage. Even the baptism of John the Baptist was for [eis - unto], that is, in order to receive, forgiveness of sin.

 

[Doug Brents]

And you dont know either

I dont know, God hasnt revealed it.

Ahh, but He has, and we CAN tell from what we know of God's character, and the promise that was made the answer to that question.

I do know that God made Paul a unconditional promise regarding the ship

Sure do.

here Acts 27:22-25 Then it reads Vs 30-31
so I believe if God gives conditions after He makes a unconditional promise, then His power causes the conditions to be performed.

Oh no. If the centurion had allowed the sailors to flee the ship, he, Paul, would have survived, but the centurion and the sailors would not have survived. God had promised Paul that he would live to make it to Rome, and He gave the lives of everyone on the ship to Paul, but He did not promise unconditionally that everyone would live.

 

[brightfame52]

All of that is pure Garbage. Even the baptism of John the Baptist was for [eis - unto], that is, in order to receive, forgiveness of sin.

Not even Johns Baptism was a requirement for forgiveness of sins, Its the blood of Christ again

 

[brightfame52]

Ahh, but He has, and we CAN tell from what we know of God's character, and the promise that was made the answer to that question.

Sure do.

Oh no. If the centurion had allowed the sailors to flee the ship, he, Paul, would have survived, but the centurion and the sailors would not have survived. God had promised Paul that he would live to make it to Rome, and He gave the lives of everyone on the ship to Paul, but He did not promise unconditionally that everyone would live.

God had already promised Paul all on the ship with him was to survive. And Paul believed Him Acts 27 24 25

24 Saying, Fear not, Paul; thou must be brought before Caesar: and, lo, God hath given thee all them that sail with thee.

25 Wherefore, sirs, be of good cheer: for I believe God, that it shall be even as it was told me. It was a wrap

 

[Doug Brents]

God had already promised Paul all on the ship with him was to survive. And Paul believed Him Acts 27 24 25

24 Saying, Fear not, Paul; thou must be brought before Caesar: and, lo, God hath given thee all them that sail with thee.

25 Wherefore, sirs, be of good cheer: for I believe God, that it shall be even as it was told me. It was a wrap

God had given all who sailed with Paul. But if they got off the ship, then they would not longer be sailing with Paul. The fact that Paul believed it was immaterial. What mattered was that the centurion believed it, and acted upon that belief to prevent them from leaving the ship. There were conditions to the survival of the others on the ship.

Now, getting back to the topic you are distracting us from:
Remember the widow that the prophet told to give him her last piece of bread? He told her that if she did, her food would last until the end of the famine. If she had not given him her last piece of bread, would she have survived until the end of the famine?

 

[brightfame52]

God had given all who sailed with Paul. But if they got off the ship, then they would not longer be sailing with Paul.

They wasnt going to get off the Ship because God had promised His deliverance of them already. Acts 27 24

24 Saying, Fear not, Paul; thou must be brought before Caesar: and, lo, God hath given thee all them that sail with thee.

Hath given thee is in the perfect tense in the orginal charizomai so it was a completed action in the past with continual results. He has already in His word of promised preserved them all. So all their subsequent actions would conform to the decree of God

 

[Doug Brents]

They wasnt going to get off the Ship because God had promised His deliverance of them already. Acts 27 24

24 Saying, Fear not, Paul; thou must be brought before Caesar: and, lo, God hath given thee all them that sail with thee.

Hath given thee is in the perfect tense in the orginal charizomai so it was a completed action in the past with continual results. He has already in His word of promised preserved them all. So all their subsequent actions would conform to the decree of God

No. The sailors were getting off the ship, and Paul convinced the centurion to prevent it, because the centurion's life would be at risk also if the sailors left the ship. Read what the Scripture says, not what you want it to say. God promised to deliver them, but the sailors didn't believe in Paul/God like the centurion was beginning to.

 

[brightfame52]

No. The sailors were getting off the ship,

Yeah but their mind was changed to conform to the decree of God Prov 16 9

9 A man's heart deviseth his way: but the Lord directeth his steps.

Prov 19:21

21 There are many devices in a man's heart; nevertheless the counsel of the Lord, that shall stand.