No, its to be administered after one has already been saved
"Works Salvation"
- Thread starter Seabass
- Start date
So unless Jesus is made lord of all over you, then remains Lord of none?
Yes, but he must first become a disciple. Jesus told the eleven how to do that.
Doug Brents
Active Member
Sorry, but Scripture does not say that.
Rom 6:1-7 - "in baptism" is the point at which we die to sin and are resurrected with Christ by the Holy Spirit.
1 Pet 3:21 - "baptism now saves you", through the action of the Holy Spirit by the power of Jesus' blood.
Col 2:11-14 - "in baptism" is the point at which we are circumcised by the Holy Spirit and united with the resurrection of Jesus.
Acts 22:16 - "be baptized and wash away your sin calling on the name of the Lord."
Eph 5:26-27 - we are washed clean of all blemishes and made holy through the washing of water (baptism) by the Word.
Gal 3:26-27 - we become clothed with Christ and are adopted into the family of God in baptism.
Acts 2:38 - repent and be baptized in order to receive forgiveness of sin.
You cannot be saved if you are still stained with sin.
You cannot be saved if you are still dead in sin.
You cannot be saved if you are still outside the family of God.
You cannot be saved if Jesus is not your Lord.
And just having an intellectual assent (belief) that Jesus is who He says He is does not make these things happen. ONLY obedience to Him does. Again, read John 12:42-43. They believed, but they loved man's praise more than the praise of God = still lost.
Baptism is in order to receive the forgiveness of sin. That was even true of John's baptism. In Christian baptism it is that and more; it is in order to receive the forgiveness of sin and to receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
civic
Active Member
If He is not your Lord then He is not your Savior either
The only way that you can enter Heaven or receive eternal life is as a free gift. It has to come by God’s “grace”, through “faith”, not by doing it yourself or earning it.
Jesus Christ died for the ‘ungodly’, for ‘sinners’ and for His ‘enemies’. You will not be able to get anywhere until you realise that you belong in all of those categories and accept that you can’t save yourself.
Jesus Christ died for the ‘ungodly’, for ‘sinners’ and for His ‘enemies’. You will not be able to get anywhere until you realise that you belong in all of those categories and accept that you can’t save yourself.
yes and that faith is your faith that you come to through hearing the word about Christ.
AMEN!
Doug Brents
Active Member
This is perfectly and completely true, but it is not the complete story.
God has said in His Word that there are certain qualifications we must meet, things we must do, acts of faith, that do not "earn" salvation, but qualify us to receive it. These actions are repentance (Acts 3:19), verbal, public confession of Jesus as Lord (Rom 10:9-10), and baptism (Acts 2:38, 1 Pet 3:21, Rom 6:1-7).
Seabass
Active Member
Calvinist use Adam to try and "prove" all are UNIVERSALLY, UNCONDITIONALLY with no limits born in sin. If that is true then the second half of the verse means that all will be UNIVERSALLY UNCONDITIONALLY, with no limits be saved.
brightfame52
Active Member
Rom 5 is about the elect anyway, it has nothing to do with the non elect. Paul in Rom 5:12ff is showing the contrasting experiences of the elect in their natural head Adam and the consequences thereof versus that in their Spiritual Head Christ and the overriding consequences thereof. Showing the triump of Christ superabounding Grace for them ! Rom 5:21
21 That as sin hath reigned unto death[in adam], even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
Seabass
Active Member
Eph 2:9 the Jews thought they could work to keep the OT law perfectly thereby meriting salvation by their perfect works. So the "works" here eliminates works of the OT law in meriting salvation but does not eliminate faithful obedience..
In Rom 1 and 2 Paul proves that both Gentiles and Jews have sinned and concludes that all (Jew & Gentile) are under sin. Those under sin are in need of justification (which is the theme here in Romans).
In Rom 3 Paul begins writing on two subjects;
1) the OT law given to the Jews
2) faith (NOT faith only)
In Rom 3 Paul begins the chapter by speaking about the OT law given to the Jews, though it was an advantage to the Jew for having the law, it still left the Jew unjustified as the Gentile (v9). Paul then in verses 10-19 takes verses from the OT law proving that the Jew sinned and did not keep the OT law perfectly. Therefore the OT law is not the solution for those under sin needing justification.
In Rom 3:21 Paul changes gears from talking about trying to be justified by the OT law to talking about being justified by faith by saying there is now another way to be justified apart from the perfect, sinless works required by the OT law and that way to be justified is by faith. In v28 Paul CONTRASTS being justified by faith from trying to be justified by the deeds of the law.
Yes, some of those Galatians foolishly left the NT that can justify them by faith to keep the OT law that could not justify them. Instead of maintaining their faith, conviction in the NT they allowed false Judaizing teachers to lead them astray.
Obeying the gospel justifies.
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Seabass
Active Member
Paul is pointing out in Rom 5:18-19 that the benefit (being made righteous) of Christ's death is available to all those affected by the consequence of sin (condemnation). And that man is not UNCONDITIONALLY made righteous but there are conditions ("obedience unto righteousness" Rom 6:16) attached to being made righteous. Just as no one is UNconditionally made righteous, no one UNconditionally made a sinner. People are conditionally made sinners when they choose to sin (Rom 5:12).
The passage refutes Calvinistic ideas of original sin and limited atonement.
Seabass
Active Member
I am simply pointing out that the Bible ties faith to obedient works so closely that faith itself is a work for without obedient works faith is dead.
Seabass
Active Member
The Roman epistle is written to Christians (the elect) in Rome but specifically in Rom 5:18-19 Paul is dealing with what Adam and Christ did and how it affects all men. If all are UNconditionally made sinners by Adam, then it is equally true that same all will be UNconditionally made righteous by Christ.
The Calvinists want the first part of these verses to include all UNIVERSALLY to be UNconditionally made sinners. yet they want the second half of the verses to be limited to only some not all UNIVERSALLY to be made righteous.
@Doug Brents
Which means before we had done any good or evil!
”
Jesus Christ did not come into this world as a private person, but as the Head of the elect of God and we members of that chosen body, and all he did was imputed to us as though we did what he did perfectly.
And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:”
God has never viewed his elect outside of Jesus Christ eternally and legally speaking!
You folks who hold to a work gospel may one day be very disappointed, but that's not for me to say who that may be, those are only known to God.
Practically, yes........... saved from sin and condemnation absoultely no way, that's another gospel pure and simple. Only the life and death of Jesus Christ secured eternal life for God's elect~a life that was promised before the world begun ~ and Christ sent into the world to secure this life for God's elect.
Titus 1:2
“In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;”Which means before we had done any good or evil!
Romans 9:11
“(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth”2nd Timothy 1:9
“Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,”Jesus Christ did not come into this world as a private person, but as the Head of the elect of God and we members of that chosen body, and all he did was imputed to us as though we did what he did perfectly.
Isaiah 42:1
“Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.”Psalms 139:16
“Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them.”Ephesians 1:4
“According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:”Ephesians 2:5
“Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:”God has never viewed his elect outside of Jesus Christ eternally and legally speaking!
You folks who hold to a work gospel may one day be very disappointed, but that's not for me to say who that may be, those are only known to God.
Seabass
Active Member
Yes. Below is an article I have referred to and cited many times over the years that deals with the grammar used in Matthew's account of the great commission about the modal participles 'teach' and 'baptize' and how they relate to the main verb 'make'. The link gives quotes from commentators with various religious backgrounds about the modal participles.....but many of them still denied baptism being essential....
What Is the Purpose of Baptism? (Part 1) - Apologetics Press
Matthew 28:19-20 constitutes the “marching orders” for the apostles in promulgating the spread of Christianity in the first century. Embedded within this “Great Commission” is one of the key prerequisites to being saved: water baptism. The precise wording expressed by Jesus provides...
apologeticspress.org
brightfame52
Active Member
Yes and its about their experience
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