"Works Salvation"

[Eternally-Grateful]

You should start listening to Jesus and those to whom he handed the true faith on.

I have been for years

The Bible does not stand alone , it has a true meaning handed down by tradition and authority of the succession.

No, the bible stands alone. It is inspired. even in the time of the NT false teachers creeped in.. The bible is our authority, because the bible are the very words of God

listen to those who were SENT, don’t lean on your own understanding, and take disputes on meaning to those Jesus appointed, the PILLAR OF TRUTH the physical church , given the power to “bind and loose” the true faith.

The reformationists severed the Bible from its true meaning and substituted the authority and tradition handed down with a myriad of conflicting personal opinions , it’s why they all disagree.

So all Protestants believe in different doctrines on every fundamental issue, and schism to form endless new churches in their own image not Gods. All are convinced they follow scripture while they have opposite meanings for it!

Protestants no longer have the word of God, they only have words.

Protestant man made traditions handed on as confessions or Calvin’s Tulip. . We know they were manmade we know who wrote them. Cranmer and his “ confession”.

Tradition is paradosis, handed down from the start, to which Paul tells you to stay true.

We know the Eucharist is the real flesh of Jesus valid only when presided by bishop in succession because that was what was handed down from the first , by those disciples of John and onwards from those appointed.
We know what they believed and did, and what John taught them because of their writings.

Protestants don’t get to choose what John 6 meant. Jesus true church handed it on from the beginning .

No protestant church has a true Eucharist because they have no bishop in succession.
That means they profane the true Eucharist which as Paul and the generations following him say can be fatal even.

Yeah

You keep listening to men. See where that will get you

I will listen to God.. Eternity is far to long to risk that some men a few thousand years ago changed the meaning of Gods word. and with the help of their mighty army, forced everyone to follow them

 

[Doug Brents]

I choose to follow Biblical practices like Councils that affirm what has been handed down to us by the Apostles such as Church practices and their Epistles. It is silly to follow only a portion of what the Apostles have bequeathed to us by not following their Church practices such as Councils.

You "follow Biblical practices like Councils", but you don't follow Biblical practices like refusing to call men "father" (as a title of respect within the Church) as Jesus commanded (Matt 23:9). Hmmm?
This is just one small example of the duplicity of the catholic cult.

 

[civic]

You "follow Biblical practices like Councils", but you don't follow Biblical practices like refusing to call men "father" (as a title of respect within the Church) as Jesus commanded (Matt 23:9). Hmmm?
This is just one small example of the duplicity of the catholic cult.

@synergy is not a catholic and doesn't call any man his Father but God.

 

[Doug Brents]

@synergy is not a catholic and doesn't call any man his Father but God.

My apologies @synergy. You appeared to be advocating for catholicism. Please forgive me for confusing you for a catholic.

 

[synergy]

My apologies @synergy. You appeared to be advocating for catholicism. Please forgive me for confusing you for a catholic.

You don't need to be a Catholic to support Councils like the Nicene Council. All Trinitarians support the Nicene Council.

 

[Doug Brents]

You don't need to be a Catholic to support Councils like the Nicene Council. All Trinitarians support the Nicene Council.

While I can agree with most of what the Nicene Council decided, there are some of their decisions that were not Scriptural.
For instance, they approved of "ordination of clergy". There is no "clergy" defined, considered, or even hinted at in Scripture. ALL Christ followers are priests to God; there is not supposed to be a "clergy" separated from the "lay" persons of the Church.

So while I agree that Jesus is God, as is the Holy Spirit, so there is a trinity within God, I cannot support the Nicene Council in general.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

You don't need to be a Catholic to support Councils like the Nicene Council. All Trinitarians support the Nicene Council.

I am a trinitarian, And I do not place any value into the Nicene council

 

[synergy]

While I can agree with most of what the Nicene Council decided, there are some of their decisions that were not Scriptural.
For instance, they approved of "ordination of clergy". There is no "clergy" defined, considered, or even hinted at in Scripture. ALL Christ followers are priests to God; there is not supposed to be a "clergy" separated from the "lay" persons of the Church.

So everyone is an ἐπίσκοπος (Episkopos), πρεσβύτερος (Presbyteros), and διάκονος (Deaconos) at your Church? Do you come from a Brethren or Congregational Church?

So while I agree that Jesus is God, as is the Holy Spirit, so there is a trinity within God,

Excellent!

I cannot support the Nicene Council in general.

That's what happens when one comes from a Church that does not appreciate everything that the Apostles bequeathed to us.

 

[synergy]

I am a trinitarian, And I do not place any value into the Nicene council

The Church was overwhelmingly Arian at the time of the Nicene Council. You don't appreciate the fact that the Council helped to transition the Church to Biblical Trinitarianism? Man, you're a tough one to please.

 

[Doug Brents]

So everyone is an ἐπίσκοπος (Episkopos), πρεσβύτερος (Presbyteros), and διάκονος (Deaconos) at your Church? Sounds like you come from a Brethren or Congregational Church.

Nope. There are specific qualifications (which no catholic priest can meet) to be an Elder (which is the same as a Presbyteros). There are similar but slightly less stringent qualifications to be a Deacon. These are positions of some authority (which means greater condemnation and responsibility as well), but they do not make the person of a separate class (clergy) than the rest of the congregation.

That's what happens when one comes from a Church that does not appreciate everything that the Apostles bequeathed to us.

I do appreciate everything that the Apostles gave to us. What I don't appreciate is the false doctrines that many have fostered in the Apostle's name that they expect us to accept as if it were the Word of God. As pointed out above, the Nicene Council is an example of that.

 

[synergy]

Nope. There are specific qualifications (which no catholic priest can meet) to be an Elder (which is the same as a Presbyteros). There are similar but slightly less stringent qualifications to be a Deacon. These are positions of some authority (which means greater condemnation and responsibility as well), but they do not make the person of a separate class (clergy) than the rest of the congregation.

So no ἐπίσκοπος (Episkopos) at your Church? Timothy was an ἐπίσκοπος that was ordained/commisioned through the laying on of hands by other ἐπίσκοπος.

I do appreciate everything that the Apostles gave to us. What I don't appreciate is the false doctrines that many have fostered in the Apostle's name that they expect us to accept as if it were the Word of God. As pointed out above, the Nicene Council is an example of that.

Do you appreciate the Church services within all the Churches that the Apostles planted during Apostolic times? Best remnants of that are the Roman Catacombs with their icons, intercessory inscriptions, and liturgical practices.

 

[Doug Brents]

So no ἐπίσκοπος (Episkopos) at your Church?

That is the word for Elders, Shepherd, Pastor, Presbeteros. Those are all the same title. And yes, these are the men who are given the authority to govern the local congregation of the Church (Tit 1:5, 1 Tim 5:17).

Timothy was an ἐπίσκοπος that was ordained/commisioned through the laying on of hands by other ἐπίσκοπος.

It does not appear that Timothy was an Elder. He was charged with appointing Elders in each congregation/city, but that doesn't make him an Elder. He was a fairly young man from all appearances, and it appears that he was not married, didn't have children, so couldn't have "believing children", so it is unlikely that he qualified to be an Elder.
Paul himself was not an Elder of the Church, even though he was an Apostle.

Do you appreciate the Church services within all the Churches that the Apostles planted during Apostolic times? Best remnants of that are the Roman Catacombs with their icons, intercessory inscriptions, and liturgical practices.

I appreciate all the Church services and practices of the Church of all ages that conform to the examples given in Scripture. But those that do not conform to Scripture, I must reject. There are some great traditions, like the arched tomb for martyrs in the Roman catacombs, that I appreciate, but they are not binding on anyone; they are just that: traditions.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

The Church was overwhelmingly Arian at the time of the Nicene Council. You don't appreciate the fact that the Council helped to transition the Church to Biblical Trinitarianism? Man, you're a tough one to please.

I follow the church found in the books of math through revelation.

the council helped transition the church to what?

The bible was completed by then, follow the word of God not the words of man.

 

[synergy]

That is the word for Elders, Shepherd, Pastor, Presbeteros. Those are all the same title. And yes, these are the men who are given the authority to govern the local congregation of the Church (Tit 1:5, 1 Tim 5:17).episodes.

I asked about Episkopos (ἐπίσκοπος). The word Episkopos is made up of epi which means over and skopeo which means to watch or to look after. Together, the word formed is Episkopos that can be translated to Overseer.

Timothy and Titus were given Regional Oversight by Paul. In 1 Tim 3:1–13, Timothy was instructed on the qualifications for episkopoi (overseers) and diakonoi (deacons). Titus 1:5 shows Paul giving Titus authority to appoint presbyters in every city. Timothy’s instructions are the same, implying he oversaw the appointment of leaders regionally. In 1 Tim 5:19–22, Timothy is to receive charges against elders, rebuke sinning leaders publicly, and even remove them if necessary. This shows he had authority over multiple elders, not just one congregation.

Timothy was also to guard doctrine across multiple churches. In 1 Tim 1:3–4, he is commanded to charge certain men not to teach strange doctrines. This places him as the Guardian of doctrine for the Ephesian churches — a regional supervisory role.

It does not appear that Timothy was an Elder. He was charged with appointing Elders in each congregation/city, but that doesn't make him an Elder. He was a fairly young man from all appearances, and it appears that he was not married, didn't have children, so couldn't have "believing children", so it is unlikely that he qualified to be an Elder.
Paul himself was not an Elder of the Church, even though he was an Apostle.

I appreciate all the Church services and practices of the Church of all ages that conform to the examples given in Scripture. But those that do not conform to Scripture, I must reject. There are some great traditions, like the arched tomb for martyrs in the Roman catacombs, that I appreciate, but they are not binding on anyone; they are just that: traditions.

Scripture is not an exhaustive manual for Church Services. It is not a detailed Eclessiastical manual. That is not its function. That's where Protestants went terribly wrong in their formation of white-washed walls churches with their imaginative services. Talk about man-made traditions, Protestant services are the epitome of that.

The above paragraph is for @Eternally-Grateful also.

 

[Doug Brents]

I asked about Episkopos (ἐπίσκοπος). The word Episkopos is made up of epi which means over and skopeo which means to watch or to look after. Together, the word formed is Episkopos that can be translated to Overseer.

That is what the Elder is and does. He is the Shepherd, the overseer, the pastor, etc. Those are all the same function within the Church.

Timothy and Titus were given Regional Oversight by Paul. In 1 Tim 3:1–13, Timothy was instructed on the qualifications for episkopoi (overseers) and diakonoi (deacons). Titus 1:5 shows Paul giving Titus authority to appoint presbyters in every city.

Again, same functions (except for the deacons).

Timothy’s instructions are the same, implying he oversaw the appointment of leaders regionally. In 1 Tim 5:19–22, Timothy is to receive charges against elders, rebuke sinning leaders publicly, and even remove them if necessary. This shows he had authority over multiple elders, not just one congregation.

Timothy, like Paul, was a teacher traveling around planting congregations of the very young Church and establishing leaders of those congregations. Yes, he had the authority to remove those leaders (elders) if they were not living up to the standards of the position. But he himself was not an Elder (and there is no position higher than an Elder within the Church).

Timothy was also to guard doctrine across multiple churches.

Again, the very young Church. We do not have any such position within the Church today. There are no longer any Apostles, and it was on their authority that Timothy did what Paul trained him to do.

In 1 Tim 1:3–4, he is commanded to charge certain men not to teach strange doctrines. This places him as the Guardian of doctrine for the Ephesian churches — a regional supervisory role.

Scripture is not an exhaustive manual for Church Services. It is not a detailed Eclessiastical manual. That is not its function. That's where Protestants went terribly wrong in their formation of white-washed walls churches with their imaginative services. Talk about man-made traditions, Protestant services are the epitome of that.

It is a good thing I am not a "protestant" then, isn't it.

 

[synergy]

That is what the Elder is and does. He is the Shepherd, the overseer, the pastor, etc. Those are all the same function within the Church.

Again, same functions (except for the deacons).

Timothy, like Paul, was a teacher traveling around planting congregations of the very young Church and establishing leaders of those congregations. Yes, he had the authority to remove those leaders (elders) if they were not living up to the standards of the position. But he himself was not an Elder (and there is no position higher than an Elder within the Church).

Again, the very young Church. We do not have any such position within the Church today. There are no longer any Apostles, and it was on their authority that Timothy did what Paul trained him to do.

It is a good thing I am not a "protestant" then, isn't it.

Timothy was not just a "teacher traveling". He had full Presidential, Administrative, Disciplinary, Judicial, Appointing, etc... powers across his whole region of congregations.

As a secular example, would you call the US President just a "teacher traveling"????