"Works Salvation"

Jim said:
You can promote your brand of Zwingliism all you want. It doesn't change the truth of scripture.
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which you do not have.

the fact you can nbot even respond to the verses I gave is proof positive,.

Good luck man. Until your ready to dig deep into the scripture. I have no more need to try to have a discussion with you.
 
Jim said:
Yes, there is baptism of the Spirit. Peter described it as the gift of the Holy Spirit. It happens when the repentant believer is baptized.
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No. That is the anointing of the spirit

People need to learn the difference between baptize (to immerse, place into etc) and anoint (to come in or on)
 
@synergy
synergy said:
Your goal is to take the human element totally outside of salvation
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That's the truth of the pure gospel of Jesus Christ to take it outside of our salvation from sin and condemnation. Jesus christ secured that salvation for us by his faith and obedience. We are not thieves and robbers of Christ's work of redemption for his elect.

John 10:10​

“The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.”
 
Red Baker said:

@Eternally-Grateful, let us look at some of those scriptures that you mentioned yesterday.​

1st Corinthians 12:13​

“For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit."

We all know that the baptism here is not water baptism, for it is a baptism performed by the Holy Spirit. We also know not every every baptism is a baptism involving water and burial in it (Matthew 3:11).

Since baptism is an immersion, the verse describes the Spirit immersing us into a church. For the context drive this meaning for us if we stay with the context.

Churches lay claim to this verse by asking for it to be done when they receive new members, which is the opposite action we take when excluding a member from our church body. At least they should, if you understood what Paul is saying.

We know the church of God/Christ has binding and loosing authority, which the Spirit applies (Matthew 18:18).

The Holy Spirit immerses, buries, plunges, dips, and otherwise sticks new members into the body until they are grafted onto it and participate in the same Spirit in the body.

The result is not salvation, but being part of a local body of believers, gifts, or anything else, but participation in the local body of the saints. “To drink into one Spirit” is mutual participation in the lively energy of the Holy Spirit. This is a passive work done to members, just like the baptism in the first part of the verse.

The verse before and the verse after define the unifying animation of the Spirit of God. The coordination of members in a church is not by a faithful elders, but by a perfect Spirit. The closer a church gets to Christ and walks in the Spirit, the more benefits they realize.

This scripture is misused, and truly only a few understand what Paul is teaching here, yet if we follow all of the context, before and after 1st Corinthians 12:13 it should be clear as to what Paul is teaching us.

Next I want to look at Romans 6:3-6
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If your in the body of Christ,. You are saved.

This baptism is performed by God.

Its not the same of being baptized in water in a local church and being part of a local group of believers. it is everyone who are Gods children, who have recieved him as their savior
 
Red Baker said:
@Eternally-Grateful


If we are honest and not bias in trying to protect our doctrine which we have received, then we must confess that Paul in Romans 6:3-6 is without question speaking of water baptism ~when he used such words as: "were baptized into his death; buried with him by baptism into death; been planted together in the likeness of his death;" etc.

As a young Christian back in the early seventies, and working around many church of Christ followers, these scriptures they used to teach that if one wanted to be IN CHRIST then they must be baptized into him in order to have their sins forgiven, etc. So. I labored for many hours, weeks, months and even a year or two seeking the true meaning of such scriptures, for I desire to be living according to what the word of God taught rather than what I was taught and had come to believe. It did not take me very long to see that I was chosen IN CHRIST (Ephesians 1:4) before the foundation of the world, way before the first man ever taught water baptism put one into Christ! Here is my understanding of Romans 6:3-6.

Paul is definitely teaching on the subject of water baptism without questioning. Beside, there is not one word in the holy scriptures that teaches A Spirit baptism into the body of Christ at regeneration, that is made up by folks would reject water baptism as the means of being in Christ according to to Romans 6:3.

To me it is a simple truth of the scriptures that once a person comes to believe in Jesus Christ and his gospel, then the apostles always commanded them to be baptized, or, to be baptized INTO THE FAITH AND RELIGION OF JESUS CHRIST which they now confess to believe in. We are not baptized into his spiritual body, for we have been part of that body from before the foundation of the world, and were part of that body when Jesus lived and died and was risen! See Ephesians 2:5-7!
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Lets just interpret the passage. By using the interpretation of the greek word and not a transliterated made up word.

3 Or do you not know that as many of us as were "Immersed or placed into" into Christ Jesus were "Immersed or placed into" into His death? 4 Therefore we were buried with Him through this immersion into into His death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Also. Notice. It can not be water, When your immersed in water, you come out. Our resurrection has not taken place yet. our baptism into his ressurection will occure at the rime we are literally ressurected.

Either way, I do not have to add anything, or try to explain away anything, Just interpret it as written.. No water is involved
 
Eternally-Grateful said:
So your calling John the baptist A liar. Got it.

Your also calling paul a liar. when he said we were baptized by the spirit who raised Christ from the dead.

There is no water in Romans 6. the thing we were baptized into was the death of Christ. Only God can do this.

thats where you fail. again, the origional greek word baptizo should be your guide. Not an english word which never existed before. but is a transliteration of that word



Thats not what John said.

He said he will baptize you with the holy spirit and fire..
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Ai~ Baptism with the Holy Spirit and fire refers to a spiritual experience where a person is empowered by the Holy Spirit, often associated with purification and transformation. This concept is highlighted in the Bible, particularly in Matthew 3:11, where John the Baptist contrasts his water baptism with the more powerful baptism that Jesus will provide.

Meaning of "Baptize with the Holy Spirit and Fire"​

Context of the Phrase​

The phrase "baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire" originates from John the Baptist's proclamation about Jesus. He contrasts his own baptism with water, which symbolizes repentance, with the more powerful baptism that Jesus would offer. This statement is found in the Gospels, particularly in Luke 3:16 and Matthew 3:11.

Dual Significance of Fire​

The term "fire" in this context has two main interpretations:

  • Purification: Fire symbolizes the purifying work of the Holy Spirit. It represents the process of cleansing and transforming believers, helping them to grow in faith and holiness. This aligns with biblical references that describe fire as a means of refining and purifying God's people.
  • Judgment: Fire also signifies judgment. It serves as a warning that those who reject God will face consequences. This duality emphasizes the seriousness of accepting or rejecting the message of Jesus.

The Role of the Holy Spirit​

Being baptized with the Holy Spirit means being immersed in the Spirit's presence and power. This experience empowers believers for service, enabling them to live according to God's will and to bear witness to their faith. The Holy Spirit is seen as the agent of transformation, guiding and equipping individuals for their spiritual journey.

Conclusion​

In summary, "baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire" highlights the transformative power of the Holy Spirit in a believer's life while also serving as a reminder of the impending judgment for those who do not accept God's message.

Eternally-Grateful said:
the fire he said is a fire that shall never be quenched. there is only come fire in scripture that fits this defenition, and that is the fires of hell.

On the last judgment, all who reject christ will be "immersed" or "placed into" the fire.

Your not supposed to seek this baptism. Any more than you are supposed to seek the anointing of the spirit. these two works of God happen the moment one is saved.

Get off this person.. I am not a follower of man.. I pray you are not either. lets get to the word..

Believe a lie? if you think Baptize was an original English word. You have believed the lie

Baptize comes from the greek word Baptizo - they removed the o and replaced with an E and made a new english word.
Baptism comes from the greek baptismo. they removed the O and made a new english word.


I can go on and on. If you would like to study the greek words. i would be more than happy to help you
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FreeInChrist said:
Ai~ Baptism with the Holy Spirit and fire refers to a spiritual experience where a person is empowered by the Holy Spirit, often associated with purification and transformation. This concept is highlighted in the Bible, particularly in Matthew 3:11, where John the Baptist contrasts his water baptism with the more powerful baptism that Jesus will provide.
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um No. John explained it in his text.

16 John answered, saying to all, “I indeed baptize you with water; but One mightier than I is coming, whose sandal strap I am not worthy to loose. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. 17 His winnowing fan is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clean out His threshing floor, and gather the wheat into His barn; but the chaff He will burn with unquenchable fire.”

Jesus is the winnowing fan. Through his death, He suffered and paid the debt for all mankind.

Through his baptism with the HS. The wheat is put into the barn.

Through the baptism in fire. the chaff will be burned with the unquenchable fire.

Once again, the only fire said to be unquenchable is hellfire.
FreeInChrist said:

Meaning of "Baptize with the Holy Spirit and Fire"​

Context of the Phrase​

The phrase "baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire" originates from John the Baptist's proclamation about Jesus. He contrasts his own baptism with water, which symbolizes repentance, with the more powerful baptism that Jesus would offer. This statement is found in the Gospels, particularly in Luke 3:16 and Matthew 3:11.

Dual Significance of Fire​

The term "fire" in this context has two main interpretations:

  • Purification: Fire symbolizes the purifying work of the Holy Spirit. It represents the process of cleansing and transforming believers, helping them to grow in faith and holiness. This aligns with biblical references that describe fire as a means of refining and purifying God's people.
  • Judgment: Fire also signifies judgment. It serves as a warning that those who reject God will face consequences. This duality emphasizes the seriousness of accepting or rejecting the message of Jesus.

The Role of the Holy Spirit​

Being baptized with the Holy Spirit means being immersed in the Spirit's presence and power. This experience empowers believers for service, enabling them to live according to God's will and to bear witness to their faith. The Holy Spirit is seen as the agent of transformation, guiding and equipping individuals for their spiritual journey.

Conclusion​

In summary, "baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire" highlights the transformative power of the Holy Spirit in a believer's life while also serving as a reminder of the impending judgment for those who do not accept God's message.
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No.

This is not even close to what John is saying

He said he baptizes with water because of remission of sin. But one comes after him, Thats the one who will save us.. He will baptize with the HS and FIRE.

Everyone will be baptized by Christ, You better pray it is the one into his death and not the one into fire
 
synergy said:
The fact that we are now believers is a fabulous synergistic work.
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Its the work of God. Not a work of any man
synergy said:
No works of the Law are involved.
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No work is involved period. by anyone.
synergy said:
Belief is on both sides of your equation. Do the math.
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It is the work of God we believe.

Once we Understand, we have a decision to make, Receive the gift of salvation. or reject it.

He who believes is not condemned, He who remains is condemned already because they have failed to believe they have not repented from unbelief to faith
 
FreeInChrist said:
I do it because it is a privilege and an honor.
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Motivation doesn't really matter so long as your faith is sincere and true. My own theory in that is that one first believes in God, in Christ, in the gospel because he begins to know and understand that there really is a heaven and a hell. It usually takes some time to finally learn what determines where we will end up in the next world.
 

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