Why are you interested at all in The Father?

[Pancho Frijoles]

Dear Christian friends:

Jesus said He is The Way to the Father… and nobody goes to the Father except through him, but…
Why are you interested at all in going to The Father?
Does The Father offer something, or gives you something that Jesus does not?
I mean, you could just stick to Jesus, confess him as Lord and… well… pretty much forget about the Father.

I’m opening the thread to know your opinion.
Why not to put aside The Father in your conversations, debates and prayers more or less like you have put aside the Holy Spirit?
I mean, keeping The Father in your books but, honestly, not so much in your minds…

Isn’t Jesus already your King of Kings and Lord of Lords? Isn’t Jesus already your Savior, The Truth, The Life, the Light of this World?

So, what’s the role of The Father not in your Theology, but in your daily life?

As a Unitarian, I can share with you the role of the Father in my daily life, but I would like first to read your comments. Thanks in advance.

 

[Dizerner]

The argumentation here is a little confused, and doesn't quite make logical sense. It seems to be along the lines of "If God has seeming redundancy shouldn't you just reduce him to the simplest element." It would be similar to arguing, "God has infinite power, so angels are stupid and meaningless—nothing an angel does, God couldn't do." We do not play around with God and logic like this—whatever God reveals himself as, we accept as a matter of submission.

But as a matter of fact, each of the Trinity does have a unique role, personality and relation to each other and us. If you had three kids, would you argue that because one kid is really enough to say you have children, therefore you should ignore the others? It literally doesn't even make sense, because even if one kid would theoretically be enough, each child adds something special.

Then in your typical manner, that you really need to work on, you casually and thoughtlessly both accuse and insult the reader falsely. I have lived with Christians all my life, and none has "put aside the Holy Spirit," the thought itself is weird and ludicrous. The Trinity has always been exalted and honored equally, and prayed to each individually. If anything, I personally give the Spirit the most attention for better or worse or where I am right now, as the Spirit is the one specially present.

The Father is the head of the hierarchy and volitional origin of the Spirit and Son, and plan of creation, and so holds a unique place of authority. The Spirit is the executive branch of God endowed with the role of revealing the deep mysteries of God's beauty, power and sacrifice. The Son is the element and representation of God's ultimate expression of sacrifice and humility, and exaltation of submission as principle. And the relations and roles of the Trinity could be expanded and elaborated for quite some more time. For example, the Father represents approval and validation; the Spirit relational intimacy and passion; the Son the quality of sincerest friendship and faithfulness; each area our deeps relational desires.

The roles and unity of God in absolute love are so complete that praying to one is praying all three, and in a way, not especially important. However, knowing them brings a deeper appreciation and respect for each one, and unique individual love for each as well. Although one can be saved while denying the Trinity if one accepts and radically trusts that Christ personally suffered for ones sins, it will be quite embarrassing to have neglected and ignored actual persons of the Infinite Transcendence when we come to know as we are fully known.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

The argumentation here is a little confused, and doesn't quite make logical sense. It seems to be along the lines of "If God has seeming redundancy shouldn't you just reduce him to the simplest element." It would be similar to arguing, "God has infinite power, so angels are stupid and meaningless—nothing an angel does, God couldn't do." We do not play around with God and logic like this—whatever God reveals himself as, we accept as a matter of submission.

But as a matter of fact, each of the Trinity does have a unique role, personality and relation to each other and us. If you had three kids, would you argue that because one kid is really enough to say you have children, therefore you should ignore the others? It literally doesn't even make sense, because even if one kid would theoretically be enough, each child adds something special.

Then in your typical manner, that you really need to work on, you casually and thoughtlessly both accuse and insult the reader falsely. I have lived with Christians all my life, and none has "put aside the Holy Spirit," the thought itself is weird and ludicrous. The Trinity has always been exalted and honored equally, and prayed to each individually. If anything, I personally give the Spirit the most attention for better or worse or where I am right now, as the Spirit is the one specially present.

The Father is the head of the hierarchy and volitional origin of the Spirit and Son, and plan of creation, and so holds a unique place of authority. The Spirit is the executive branch of God endowed with the role of revealing the deep mysteries of God's beauty, power and sacrifice. The Son is the element and representation of God's ultimate expression of sacrifice and humility, and exaltation of submission as principle. And the relations and roles of the Trinity could be expanded and elaborated for quite some more time. For example, the Father represents approval and validation; the Spirit relational intimacy and passion; the Son the quality of sincerest friendship and faithfulness; each area our deeps relational desires.

The roles and unity of God in absolute love are so complete that praying to one is praying all three, and in a way, not especially important. However, knowing them brings a deeper appreciation and respect for each one, and unique individual love for each as well. Although one can be saved while denying the Trinity if one accepts and radically trusts that Christ personally suffered for ones sins, it will be quite embarrassing to have neglected and ignored actual persons of the Infinite Transcendence when we come to know as we are fully known.

Thank you very much for your post, Dizerner.
What I am trying to avoid is a theological dissertation..
In daily life we rarely think in theological terms and that’s why my question is What is the role of The Father, not in your theology, but in your daily life?
My question is also not about your duty, but about your interest, your deepest desire. So I ask:. Why are you interested in going to the Father? Particularly assuming that you think you can find everything you need in Jesus.

I think these are questions that deserve reflection .
I’m not presenting a structured argument. That’s not the intention of the thread. This is a free exploration of our hearts and daily lives.
You say that each of the three kids of a father adds something especial. I like this analogy. So, what is that special thing that The Father adds to your daily life?

I will explore an answer from my own daily life and share it with you all.

 

[atpollard]

If you were walking along and suddenly a voice started speaking to you from a burning bush, could YOU discern whether it was the FATHER, a CHRISTOPHANY or the HOLY SPIRIT speaking to you from that burning bush? If "I and my Father are one" and "I am in the Father and the Father is in Me", as Jesus claimed ... would it matter whose voice was coming from the bush?

I think you are overemphasizing the "THREE" and ignoring the "IN ONE" aspect of TRINITY. (ONE GOD in THREE PERSONS.)

As far as "division of labor" in Scripture:

• The Father GIVES/DRAWS people to the Son.
• The Son saves people for the Father.
• The Holy Spirit enters the saved to teach, preserve and empower until we are perfected in HIS (GOD's) glory in heaven.

Division of labor, but unity of purpose.

 

[atpollard]

So, what is that special thing that The Father adds to your daily life?

I pray to the FATHER in the name (authority) of the God-man-redeemer Son [sometimes with more than a little help from the Holy Spirit living inside me].

 

[civic]

I more often than not pray to the Son since He is the One who died for my sins, the One who is the Lord(YHWH ) a person must confess to be saved.

It never in the N.T. says one must confess the Father to be saved but many times it declares one must confess the Son to be saved. Eternal life is found in the Son. Only once out of dozens of times does it ever include the Father in eternal life. Jesus identified eternal life is found in him as did the Apostles who taught the same. The Son is worthy of all worship, honor, praise, power and prayer as we see demonstrated by the disciples and those in heaven in Revelation- all creation bows to Him. He is their CREATOR, their REDEEMER, SAVIOR, LORD, GOD etc...... who became man to pay the eternal price for sin.

Those who refuse to honor the Son as described above do not know the Father but only give Him lip service just like the pharisees did whom Jesus exposed their hypocrisy.

BTW- I think about Jesus, meditate about Him 90% of the time in my daily Christian life.

hope this helps !!!

 

[civic]

the greater question is why is a unitarian even interested in the slightest degree with the Son ?

Jesus pointed to Himself as the One who must be believed in to be saved, receive eternal life. The One a person must follow to be saved. He did not point to the Father, but Himself.

Something a unitarian cannot do and refuses to do.

hope this helps !!!

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

If you were walking along and suddenly a voice started speaking to you from a burning bush, could YOU discern whether it was the FATHER, a CHRISTOPHANY or the HOLY SPIRIT speaking to you from that burning bush? If "I and my Father are one" and "I am in the Father and the Father is in Me", as Jesus claimed ... would it matter whose voice was coming from the bush?

I think you are overemphasizing the "THREE" and ignoring the "IN ONE" aspect of TRINITY. (ONE GOD in THREE PERSONS.)

As far as "division of labor" in Scripture:

• The Father GIVES/DRAWS people to the Son.
• The Son saves people for the Father.
• The Holy Spirit enters the saved to teach, preserve and empower until we are perfected in HIS (GOD's) glory in heaven.

Division of labor, but unity of purpose.

Thank you very much for your great post.
Yes, the Oneness of God is what help us relate with Him everyday, since we wake up in the morning to the time we say Good night and sleep.

I have defended many times my Trinitarian brothers and sisters from accusations coming from Jehovah Witnesses... accusations about idolatry or "improper" worshiping.
I tell them that, regardles on the details of how the Trinity is presented or understood theoretically, in practice Trinitarians relate to a single Entity, God.
For example, the "division of labor" you present is fine, but you don't feel like different Persons are doing different things in you... or that you are doing different things to address each distinct person.

That's the essence of believing in a single God.
There is no competition for your attention or love.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

the greater question is why is a unitarian even interested in the slightest degree with the Son ?

Well, I can address that question from the point of view of non-Christian Unitarian, specifically a Baha'i, and specifically Pancho.
Our Christian Unitarian friends may have a different perspective.

From my perspective, I don't hear the voice of God speaking to me from heaven. What I hear is the voice of His Messengers talking to me.
So, my interest in Jesus is that He spoke the words of God and acted to show the attributes of God.
He is my example, my inspiration. He shows me the Path to God in a tangible, intelligible way.

For example, if I want to know what "love" means, I read the gospels to know how Jesus behaved, and I tell myself: "Oh, that's love".

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

the greater question is why is a unitarian even interested in the slightest degree with the Son ?

Jesus pointed to Himself as the One who must be believed in to be saved, receive eternal life. The One a person must follow to be saved. He did not point to the Father, but Himself.

Something a unitarian cannot do and refuses to do.

hope this helps !!!

In that respect, civic, let me share you my particular experience in every day life.

If I realize I sinned during the day, I come to the Father to ask forgiveness.
If I want something to be changed in my life, some recurring spiritual problem, I come to the Father.
If I am confused about the best choice to take in my job or in a family problem, I come to the Father.
When I talk to my wife (who self-identifies as atheist) about any blessing I have received, or the gratitude I feel about something, I talk to her about The Father.
Certainly, I also talk to her about Jesus. For example, I tell her stories from the gospel to illustrate God's love, justice, care, etc.
When I have conversations with taxi drivers (I love that) I also tell them about The Father and his care for his children. If he has read the gospels, then I also use examples from Jesus life and teachings. I live in a Christian country (Mexico) so most people are familiar with at least a couple of stories.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

I more often than not pray to the Son since He is the One who died for my sins, the One who is the Lord(YHWH ) a person must confess to be saved.

It never in the N.T. says one must confess the Father to be saved but many times it declares one must confess the Son to be saved. Eternal life is found in the Son. Only once out of dozens of times does it ever include the Father in eternal life. Jesus identified eternal life is found in him as did the Apostles who taught the same. The Son is worthy of all worship, honor, praise, power and prayer as we see demonstrated by the disciples and those in heaven in Revelation- all creation bows to Him. He is their CREATOR, their REDEEMER, SAVIOR, LORD, GOD etc...... who became man to pay the eternal price for sin.

Those who refuse to honor the Son as described above do not know the Father but only give Him lip service just like the pharisees did whom Jesus exposed their hypocrisy.

BTW- I think about Jesus, meditate about Him 90% of the time in my daily Christian life.

hope this helps !!!

Then, civic, why would you want to come to the Father?
Jesus says He is the Way to the Father. Why would you be interested in walking that way and arriving to such destination?
From what I read in your post, Jesus is not the Way, but the Destination. Is that so? If I am misunderstanding you, please correct me.

However, Jesus asked us to pray to the Father, to trust in the Father, to be like the Father. He is presented as a Mediator between us and the Father.
What do you need the Father for, then? I mean, not in your Theology, but in your daily life.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

I pray to the FATHER in the name (authority) of the God-man-redeemer Son [sometimes with more than a little help from the Holy Spirit living inside me].

Thank you, atpollard
What is the content of your prayers, if we can know?
I mean, do you praise the Father, thank Him, ask Him to forgive you, ask Him to assist you in personal problems and problems of people you know? Please let us know how your relationship with the Father looks or feels when you are praying to Him.

 

[civic]

In that respect, civic, let me share you my particular experience in every day life.

If I realize I sinned during the day, I come to the Father to ask forgiveness.
If I want something to be changed in my life, some recurring spiritual problem, I come to the Father.
If I am confused about the best choice to take in my job or in a family problem, I come to the Father.
When I talk to my wife (who self-identifies as atheist) about any blessing I have received, or the gratitude I feel about something, I talk to her about The Father.
Certainly, I also talk to her about Jesus. For example, I tell her stories from the gospel to illustrate God's love, justice, care, etc.
When I have conversations with taxi drivers (I love that) I also tell them about The Father and his care for his children. If he has read the gospels, then I also use examples from Jesus life and teachings. I live in a Christian country (Mexico) so most people are familiar with at least a couple of stories.

I’m just the opposite it’s all about Jesus even He declared it to be true.


Jesus said the OT was about Himself , not the Father.

Luke 24:25-27
25 And He said to them, "O foolish men and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken! 26 " Was it not necessary for the Christ to suffer these things and to enter into His glory?" 27 Then beginning with Moses and with all the prophets, He explained to them the things concerning Himself in all the Scriptures.

John 5:39-40
39 "You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me; 40 and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life.

Luke 24:44-45
44Now He said to them, "These are My words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things which are written about Me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled." 45 Then He opened their minds to understand the Scriptures,

Jesus said the Holy Spirit will bear witness of HIM, not the Father

John 15:26
“When the Advocate comes, whom I will send to you from the Father—the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father—he will testify about me. 27 And you also must testify, for you have been with me from the beginning.

John 16:7-9
But very truly I tell you, it is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Advocate will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you. 8 When he comes, he will prove the world to be in the wrong about sin and righteousness and judgment: 9 about sin, because people do not believe in me

John 16:13-14
But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14 He will glorify me because it is from me that he will receive what he will make known to you.


1 Corinthians 12:3
Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus is accursed"; and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit

 

[civic]

Then, civic, why would you want to come to the Father?
Jesus says He is the Way to the Father. Why would you be interested in walking that way and arriving to such destination?
From what I read in your post, Jesus is not the Way, but the Destination. Is that so? If I am misunderstanding you, please correct me.

However, Jesus asked us to pray to the Father, to trust in the Father, to be like the Father. He is presented as a Mediator between us and the Father.
What do you need the Father for, then? I mean, not in your Theology, but in your daily life.

I’m in the Son which automatically has me with the Father.

Next

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

I’m in the Son which automatically has me with the Father.

Next

I agree, but why is it important for you to be with the Father in the first place?
For example, you wouldn't want to follow a false messiah in which you would not be automatically united with the Father. Right?
So, the desire of being with the Father has been key for you to have chosen Jesus, the True Messiah. Am I right in this understanding?

The question is then, why do you want to abide in the Father or be connected with the Father or reconciled with the Father?

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

I’m just the opposite it’s all about Jesus even He declared it to be true.


Jesus said the OT was about Himself , not the Father.

There are some passages in the OT that speak about Christ... the messianic passages.
Jesus didn't say that all the OT was about Him. Please examine the verses you have quoted.
Again, if I am misundertanding you, please let me know.

If all the OT were about Jesus, then, was Jesus introducing to the people a new God when He talked about the Father?
Who was the Father, then? Why didn't Jesus have to explain who The Father was?
Jesus quoted the Torah normally, as any Hebrew, and spoke about the God of Israel in third person.
Furthermore, Jesus was clear that the God that his Jewish apostles believing in was also His God.

If the OT was about Jesus, what is the role of the Father in the OT?

 

[civic]

There are some passages in the OT that speak about Christ... the messianic passages.
Jesus didn't say that all the OT was about Him. Please examine the verses you have quoted.
Again, if I am misundertanding you, please let me know.

If all the OT were about Jesus, then, was Jesus introducing to the people a new God when He talked about the Father?
Who was the Father, then? Why didn't Jesus have to explain who The Father was?
Jesus quoted the Torah normally, as any Hebrew, and spoke about the God of Israel in third person.
Furthermore, Jesus was clear that the God that his Jewish apostles believing in was also His God.

If the OT was about Jesus, what is the role of the Father in the OT?

Jesus said no one in the OT has seen the Father or heard His voice.

Yet they saw and heard YHWH many times

 

[atpollard]

Thank you, atpollard
What is the content of your prayers, if we can know?
I mean, do you praise the Father, thank Him, ask Him to forgive you, ask Him to assist you in personal problems and problems of people you know? Please let us know how your relationship with the Father looks or feels when you are praying to Him.

Respectfully, life is hard and my prayer life is personal. Events since Christmas:

• Foot surgery for wife.
• Hospitalization for post-surgery complications.
• Work from home during post-surgery recovery (to cook and change dressings).
• Daughter struck in crosswalk by hit and run driver.
• I had the flu.

… and that is just the events in my immediate household. Needless to say, I am “prayed up” and happy to say that through it all, GOD is still very good.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Respectfully, life is hard and my prayer life is personal. Events since Christmas:

• Foot surgery for wife.
• Hospitalization for post-surgery complications.
• Work from home during post-surgery recovery (to cook and change dressings).
• Daughter struck in crosswalk by hit and run driver.
• I had the flu.

… and that is just the events in my immediate household. Needless to say, I am “prayed up” and happy to say that through it all, GOD is still very good.

God bless you, my brother.
Thanks for having shared with us these things.
It resonates with me. We trust that the Father can help us and our beloved ones to go through difficult health situations. We understand that the Father, who created our bodies and sustain them, has the power to heal them, (if this is according to His Will) and to help us to cope with pain and leverage these difficulties and trials to strengthen our trust in Him and learn from the experience.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Jesus said no one in the OT has seen the Father or heard His voice.

Yet they saw and heard YHWH many times

Then, who was This Father who Jesus asked the Israelites to pray to?