Who you are in Christ

[atpollard]

I recognize this thread is just getting started, but I am sensing a serious unintended problem (I assume it is unintended). Are there actually this many Christians who do not understand the purpose of their salvation? How is it there exists such difficulty answering the question,

Would you agree that the purpose of our salvation is to do good works that God planned for each of us to perform prior to His saving us?

that 1) none would provide the answer scripture provides and 2) and only one would offer an instantaneous "Amen!" to the testimony of Ephesians2:10 (nod to @Pancho Frijoles for the and unequivocal "YES")? How can anyone hope to discuss our identity in Christ ("who you are in Christ" is the op's title) without a basic understanding of one's purpose therein?

• Saved by grace
• Saved through faith.
• Created in Christ for good works.

Soteriology 101.

Can I get an "Amen!" now?

While true (and I will always give an Amen to the great news of Ephesians 2:1-10), I think that the "good works" are actually secondary ... inevitable, but secondary. I don't remember which one had it, but one of the Catechisms that I browsed through asked:

Q: "What is the chief end of man?"​

A: "Our good and God's glory".​

That is why we exist. That is why God saved us. That is why we do the good works that God prepared in advance for us to walk in. Because such things are "for our good" and such things are "for His glory" and without that ... Thomas Hobbes and Friedrich Nietzsche were right (life is harsh, lonely and meaningless).

 

[JoshebB]

While true (and I will always give an Amen to the great news of Ephesians 2:1-10), I think that the "good works" are actually secondary ... inevitable, but secondary.

With respect, I disagree and I find the following.....

I don't remember which one had it, but one of the Catechisms that I browsed through asked:

Q: "What is the chief end of man?"​

A: "Our good and God's glory".​

That is why we exist. That is why God saved us.

Contradictory to the first portion of the post because there is no who without a why. To suggest otherwise would be to necessarily assert a purposeless existence, a purposeless identity and that goes against everything having to do with the nature and purpose of creation as a whole and the God who is always fruitful. I trust you and everyone else currently here knows and embracingly accepts the fact is always bearing fruit, always profiting, and never, ever failing in His purpose. There is no one created in Christ without purpose. Our existence, ontology and teleology are not capable of being extricated from each other.

That is why we do the good works that God prepared in advance for us to walk in.

No. Even the Christ-denying unregenerate sinner glorifies God. The reason we do good works is because we have been created in Christ to do so. Faith begets faithfulness. There are generic works God expects from everyone (like loving others - Rom. 13:8, for example), but that is not the same as God having good works for each of us to perform as a direct consequence of His creating us in Christ.

Because such things are "for our good" and such things are "for His glory" and without that ... Thomas Hobbes and Friedrich Nietzsche were right (life is harsh, lonely and meaningless).

non sequitur




Simply put: Did God create you (any of you all) to do a bunch of generic stuff everyone in Christ is (supposed to be) doing? Or is there something specific to you for which He shed His Son's blood?

To be sure: Jesus gave some to be leaders (Eph. 4), and most of us are sheep, not shepherds, most places in our lives,* but that does not preclude a uniqueness to every one of our identities and purpose in Christ. God made fourteen or fifteen billion people (so far) and no two of them are exactly alike. Is that the end of His diversity? I say, "No! God has a unique purpose for every individual He saves. We each bear His image differently than our neighbor. Christ in us and we in Christ is not (solely) monolithic."










* I happen to have been privileged with leadership qualities that avail themselves in many, if not most places. I have been a preacher and a teacher and an evangelist. As a professional counselor I have even pastored the pastors. On its surface that may sound amazing (or arrogant, depending on your reading), but it's also something to be overcome because no leader can lead well without also learning how to learn and how to follow others. No one is always a pastor (or teacher, etc.). No marriage, for example, is capable of enduring well with one spouse always running everything. That has killed many a marriage unnecessarily and unscripturally. It becomes necessary for any leader to know when s/he is a shepherd and when s/he is a sheep, because both conditions co-exist in every creature God makes in Christ. That being said, most of us are sheep, not shepherds - especially in this forum - so please do not construe my posts to say otherwise.
.

 

[atpollard]

With respect, I disagree and I find the following.....

You have the right to be wrong.

 

[JoshebB]

nt

 

[MTMattie]

I recognize this thread is just getting started, but I am sensing a serious unintended problem (I assume it is unintended). Are there actually this many Christians who do not understand the purpose of their salvation? How is it there exists such difficulty answering the question,


Would you agree that the purpose of our salvation is to do good works that God planned for each of us to perform prior to His saving us?

NO.

that 1) none would provide the answer scripture provides and 2) and only one would offer an instantaneous "Amen!" to the testimony of Ephesians2:10 (nod to @Pancho Frijoles for the and unequivocal "YES")? How can anyone hope to discuss our identity in Christ ("who you are in Christ" is the op's title) without a basic understanding of one's purpose therein?

• Saved by grace
• Saved through faith.
• Created in Christ for good works.

Soteriology 101.

Can I get an "Amen!" now?

No.

 

[JoshebB]

NO.

No.

Well then, aside from observing the abject denial of what is plainly stated in scripture, I do not think we have more to discuss. I could quote a handful of other passages that speak of our identity in Christ but I do not hope any of them would be accepted since the purpose stated Ephesians 2:5-10 was rejected. Thank you for your time.

 

[JoshebB]

I'll take it line by line.

The difference between who we are in Christ and what we do is huge.

Not so huge that the two are mutually exclusive of one another because the identity existing in Christ has purpose. God is not a purposeless or fruitless God. He acts with intent and purpose and that fact includes His making of people in Christ.

We are so much more than our jobs, our accomplishments, or our failures.

That' a vague statement that could mean anything. It would be nice to read some examples of the "more," especially since scripture chronically operationalizes our identity in Christ.

Matthew 22:37
Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.

2 Corinthians 10:5
We are destroying arguments and all arrogance raised against the knowledge of God, and we are taking every thought captive to the obedience of Christ...

Philippians 4:13
I can do all this through him who gives me strength.

To be sure, there are many more verses that speak of the nature of being in Christ...

2 Corinthians 5:17
Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come.

Galatians 2:20
I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me.

But they are never asserted apart as mutually exclusive of what we do. Many passages overtly combine whow we are with what we do.

2 Peter 1:2-7
Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord; seeing that His divine power has granted to us everything pertaining to life and godliness, through the true knowledge of Him who called us by His own glory and excellence. For by these He has granted to us His precious and magnificent promises, so that by them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world by lust. Now for this very reason also, applying all diligence, in your faith supply moral excellence, and in your moral excellence, knowledge, and in your knowledge, self-control, and in your self-control, perseverance, and in your perseverance, godliness, and in your godliness, brotherly kindness, and in your brotherly kindness, love.

In point of fact, much of the epistolary is direction on how to live and work, what to be doing in Christ. Care must be taken not to create false dichotomies when talking about who we are in Christ.

1 Peter 2:9
But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light.

Who we are in Christ: Royal priests, members of a holy nation.
What royal priests of a holy nation do: Proclaim the excellencies of God.

No "huge difference." Had the op said there is a huge difference between what those outside of Christ do and what those in Christ do then there would be a huge difference. The same holds true who we are. Those in Christ are fundamentally different people, different kind of people, than those outside Christ.

Our identity comes from Jesus.

Yep. Amen!

In and of ourselves, we are nothing, we have nothing, and we can do nothing of eternal value.

Well..... sorta maybe kinda. I would normally agree but two of the critically important underlying facts are 1) God does not make worthless things, and 2) God wouldn't not have shed His Son's blood if we had no inherent value. It would be accurate to say the sinful flesh has not value other than to bear witness to God's glory in the end.

But in Christ, we can be, do, and have everything God promises us in His Word.

I thought you just said there's a huge difference between who we are an what we do . If that is true, why then is what "we can do" brought back into the op on who we are?

Obvious answer: Because the two are not mutually exclusive of one another. Part of who we are is people with divine purpose.

An attitude of confidence will exude from us when we know who we are in Christ and believe in the power that the Bible says is ours through faith.

Pkay....... we're people who have an attitude of confidence when we know who we are and believe in the power that is ours thorugh faith. That is true. Often have I said to a client, am mentee, or a disciplee....

You are always better able to recall who you are when you remember Whose you are.

However, the first portion of that sentence begs the question and operationalizes the matter. The confidence is dependent upon something we do, and there's supposed to be a huge difference between who we are and what we do. If we do not know who we are then there's no exuding.

We are enabled to live new lives because of who we are in Christ.

That is true. 100% correct. We are, however, enabled whether we know it or not, believe it or not. Which, presumably, is the purpose of the op: to remind everyone of who we are in Christ and that we have been enabled.

Enabling implies purpose and tasks to be performed.


Who we are is people who have been enabled to do stuff; stuff the unregenerate, unredeemed, faithless, unjustified, unsanctified, etc. person cannot do.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

No disrespect toward @Begotten, but that reads very human-centric and not Christ-centric.

Are you referring to the OP or to any further text from his posts?
I am puzzled. Why do you think that his post reads very "human-centric" and not "Christ-centric"?
@Begotten says:

"In and of ourselves, we are nothing, we have nothing, and we can do nothing of eternal value.
But in Christ, we can be, do, and have everything God promises us in His Word."

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

NO.

No.

Hi MTMattie

I would be very interested in knowing why you said no.
Please share with us your thoughts.

 

[Dizerner]

Well..... sorta maybe kinda. I would normally agree

Let me encourage you to more deeply consider your worthlessness apart from God, so that you do not hedge on it.

God DOES make things that are worthless IN AND OF THEMSELVES, and that's a very crucial point to consider.

We derive our value from God's valuation rather than our own inherent "in and of ourselves" worth.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Not so huge that the two are mutually exclusive of one another because the identity existing in Christ has purpose. God is not a purposeless or fruitless God. He acts with intent and purpose and that fact includes His making of people in Christ.

Beautifully put.
I like allegories so I will use one to support your point and also Begotten’s.

The identity of a human baby normally ensures she will be able to speak. Furthermore, to make language an extension of her abstract reasoning. In some cases, God will have endowed that baby with the ability to write profound essays, inspiring poems, or to rally crowds towards the defense of a good cause. In this, the identity of a baby chimpanzee and a human baby guarantee that they will end up producing very different things in regard to language.

However, by observing the first weeks of life of a human baby, we notice that there is a huge distance between what the baby does and what the baby is… while such distance is quite shorter between what the chimpanzee baby does from what she is.

From the perspective of our first creation (“in the image of God”) our identity is already that of inifinitely special beings.

Being reborn/renewed in Christ (our second creation, so to speak) we find ourselves in a development journey, foreseen by God’s sovereignty and wisdom from the beginning of the world. While we can recognize we are still toddlers not able to talk, knowing our identity as children of God is already the most powerful motivator of our gratitude and loyalty to He who we belong.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Let me encourage you to more deeply consider your worthlessness apart from God, so that you do not hedge on it.

But why would @JoshebB focus more deeply in his worthlessness apart from God, when he is in fact living in God, and enjoying his enourmous worth?

In his recommendations for a moral behavior, Paul often reminds his readers of their enormous value. For example, he advices “do not go to a prostitute because your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit”. Living our new life, thinking with our new mind, should be our focus.

The old man has been crucified. It is no longer the central theme of our life. We let the dead bury their dead.

 

[Dizerner]

But why would @JoshebB focus more deeply in his worthlessness apart from God, when he is in fact living in God, and enjoying his enourmous worth?

The reason is, we are all tempted to pride.

Pride is THE original and cardinal sin from which ALL other sins stem.

In this life we have a sin nature always trying to secretly cover and excuse the sin of pride, that we have value without God.

In his recommendations for a moral behavior, Paul often reminds his readers of their enormous value.

Paul clearly and forcefully reminds us that apart from Christ we are nothing.

He calls himself the greatest of all sinners and says he was not worthy to be an apostle.

The old man has been crucified. It is no longer the central theme of our life. We let the dead buy their dead.

Paul tells us to daily put off the old man, which contradicts your once-for-all theology.

And only those who accepted the Biblical Christ can claim to have died with him—which excludes those like yourself.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

The reason is, we are all tempted to pride.
Pride is THE original and cardinal sin from which ALL other sins stem.

I see your point and thank you for reminding us about this.

In this life we have a sin nature always trying to secretly cover and excuse the sin of pride, that we have value without God.

How much value does the sinner have before the eyes of God?
How much value does the sinner have before your eyes? Think in the people that you interact with daily… particularly those who follow a different religion, like me.
The intrinsic value of every man and woman derives from our Creator, and encompasses people from all nations, all times, all religions.

Did Paul ask the Pagan Athenians to focus on their intrinsic worthlessness?
No. On the contrary… Paul told them that in God “we live and move and exist. As some of your own poets have said, ‘We are his offspring.”
To conceive the dignity of God, who could not be thought like an idol of metal or stone, dweller of physical temples, Paul appealed to the dignity of his Pagan audience!
Paul let them know that we all are the offspring of God. Please notice how he said “we”. Paul, born again in Christ, counted himself in dignity, in value, among those Pagan Greeks. “For in God we live and move and exist.”

Paul clearly and forcefully reminds us that apart from Christ we are nothing.

Certainly. But Paul spends even more time and energy in reminding us about how the life in Christ looks like for us. Do you agree?

He calls himself the greatest of all sinners and says he was not worthy to be an apostle.

He also said
“My old self has been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me (Gal 2:20)
“ I am convinced that nothing can ever separate us from God’s love. Neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither our fears for today nor our worries about tomorrow—not even the powers of hell can separate us from God’s love.” (Romans 8:38)
“So I urge you to imitate me.” (1 Cor 4:16)

Paul tells us to daily put off the old man, which contradicts your once-for-all theology.

I don’t believe in a once-for-all soteriology. I believe in salvation as a continuous, daily process.

And only those who accepted the Biblical Christ can claim to have died with him—which excludes those like yourself.

I think it does not exclude you or those like yourself. I am sure that you, Dizerner, are the offspring of God, my brother and a person of infinite value in the eyes of Our Father.

 

[JoshebB]

But why would @JoshebB focus more deeply in his worthlessness apart from God, when he is in fact living in God, and enjoying his enourmous worth?

It's trolling, Pancho. Don't feed it.

 

[JoshebB]

I am puzzled. Why do you think that his post reads very "human-centric" and not "Christ-centric"?

Because 1) the op is @Begotten's and it is my common practice to defer to the author of an opening post, and the emphasis in doing is couched in what humans do, not what God/Jesus/the Spirit does. I've already covered the inconsistency pertaining to the "huge difference" between who we are and what we do. By pointing out the human-centricity of the doing, attention is brought to another inconsistency. Who we are in Christ and what we do in Christ is accomplished by Christ (and His Spirit). I am not implying we are controlled like puppets, but that it is God who is at work in you, both to desire and to work for His good pleasure. That is who we are in Christ. We are creatures in whom God works for His pleasure. We are creatures in whom He works so that we desire and work for His pleasure.

Now go back to Posts 1 and 3 and see if you read that emphasis, the Christ-centricity versus the human-centricity.


No offense, no untoward insinuation, was intended (and disqualifiers have to be stated because some will attribute such things if not precluded); just a simple observation. As someone else has observed, apart from Christ we are nothing. We were once strangers to God's covenants of the promise and without hope and God. The one who remains in Christ bears fruit and apart from him we can do nothing (Jn. 15:5). We are, therefore, people who bear fruit; people who bear fruit in Christ. That is who we are and what we do. To tie it back to my original point, having been saved by grace..... we are created in Christ to do good works that God had planned for us to perform before He saved us.

Our attitude - our understanding - should be the one described in Philippians 2.

Philippians 2:3-8
Do nothing from selfishness or empty conceit, but with humility of mind regard one another as more important than yourselves; do not merely look out for your own personal interests, but also for the interests of others. Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, who, although he existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself, taking the form of a bondservant, and being made in the likeness of men. Being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.

Jesus exemplified this when he reported he said nothing and did nothing other than what his Father told him to say and do. Does that mean Jesus asked God for the answer to every meticulous matter? Did Jesus need God to tell him which exact, specific 144 square inches to place each and every footprint as he walked from town to town? Did Jesus need God to tell him exactly how many beans to eat with breakfast or which bush to go behind when nature called journeying on the road? No! That is not what Jesus is talking about. It's not what Paul was writing about, either. This sort of thig gets over-spiritualized and that leads to an array of subsequent errors. What then was Jesus talking about when he said he said and did only what the Father told him to do.

The good works God had planned for him to perform before he was born.

The incarnation was not purposeless. Who Jesus is and what Jesus did/does are not mutually exclusive conditions and ALL of it was decided before the logos of God that is God was made flesh. Christ's taking on the form of a bondservant was part of the plan; his assignment, so to speak. So too was his obedience to the point of death and his death on the cross. We, as a consequence, have been purchased (1 Cor. 6:20) and, like him, are now bondservants (2 Cor. 4:5) who, also like him, have been crucified with him. This is who we are in him. At lot could be said about this because the significance of a purchased bondservant is inherently gospel oriented. At the other end of that paradigm, we are also royal priests. Much could be said about that too because those two roles go all the way back at least to Melchizedek and are also inherently gospel oriented, but for now it is worth noting that the bondservant is also a royal priest and all three: bondservant, royalty, and priest have assigned tasks.

Who we are and what we do in Christ overlap abundantly.

 

[JoshebB]

Being reborn/renewed in Christ (our second creation, so to speak) we find ourselves in a development journey, foreseen by God’s sovereignty and wisdom from the beginning of the world. While we can recognize we are still toddlers not able to talk, knowing our identity as children of God is already the most powerful motivator of our gratitude and loyalty to He who we belong.

Yep.

And if stricken with terminal disease we do not develop; we die. Cured of the disease, we heal. Healing is...... developmental. It's extraordinary if considered this way because we're not ignorant of grace, mercy, forgiveness, redemption, and all that God has done through Christ. We are creatures who know many things Satan and his ilk will never know . It is who we are in Christ.

That has got to irritate that guy to know end.





Well, I reckon it does have an end .