Who are the Seed of Abraham, heirs of the promises of God?

[Red Baker]

For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

Again, Saul is referring to those of his flesh aka Jews.

Jeremiah, you are just as blinded as the Jews were in Jesus' day. Notice Paul said clearly: "For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world"~The Jews as a nation are forever cast off as a nation, a very small, and I emphasis, a very small remnant are part of the children of Abraham since Christ, before Christ a larger number, but only then, those that had faith ~ had faith because they were part of the children of God's promises just as it is now.

Now, we could spend as much time in Romans eleven as you desire to do, for Paul is addressing the very elect among the Jews that were having trouble reconciling OT scriptures, with the the very fact that God is now visiting the Gentiles nations to take out of them a people for his name sake. Also, Jerusalem was no longer the place to go to worship, the temple no longer the temple of God, thereby some natural branches were having trouble understanding these truths, and it was to them that Paul labored to save them to the truth~he did not labor to saved them from their sin and condemnation, the power of God did that for some of them, the very ones he sought to help ~ he did labor to save them in a practical sense, and he knew it was be much easier for them since they were born into the Olive tree which their fathers had enjoyed the fatness thereof for almost four thousand tress. Romans eleven is a much disputed section of the book of Romans, even more so than chapter 9, and very few truly understand chapter eleven.

But for now, I want to debate you one on one on many subjects pertaining to Israel. We might as well stay here, since this thread is already moved in this direction.

Let's start with this: Who Is the seed of Abraham? I mean, the biblical, spiritual, true seed of Abraham?

I'll let a natural born son of Abraham tell us who that seed might be.
“Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.”

All the promises to Abraham's seed, were made to Christ. God made incredible promises to Abraham and his seed about 4,000 years ago … promises of a land for an everlasting possession, an innumerable family, destruction of their enemies, and blessings on all nations of the earth. Who is the seed of Abraham? Do not attempt to say that the nations of the earth meant Jews that were part of these nation, for the verse YOU quoted of above clearly stated: "For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world,"...Jeremiah, the Jews were cast away as a whole, but not completely ~ and God is reconciling the WORLD to come and enjoyed the fatness of the Olive tree, the world which was wild by nature...."being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:"

We both are from Adam, thereby, both are an Olive tree in that sense..... God first chose and formed the nation of Israel, the Jews, to reveal himself to them, and then he chose to visit the Gentiles nations of this world to do the same with them, bringing the children of God's promises to salvation and a knowledge of the truth.

Who Is the seed of Abraham? I mean, the biblical, spiritual, true seed of Abraham?
“Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.” Galatians 3:16

Galatians 3:27-29
“For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.”

I'll come back since I have much more to say.

 

[Red Baker]

Jeremiah, you are just as blinded as the Jews were in Jesus' day. Notice Paul said clearly: "For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world"~The Jews as a nation are forever cast off as a nation, a very small, and I emphasis, a very small remnant are part of the children of Abraham since Christ, before Christ a larger number, but only then, those that had faith ~ had faith because they were part of the children of God's promises just as it is now.

Cast off? But Saul says "and ALL Israel shall be saved." And saved they ALL shall be for they have that kind of covenant in Moses. And since Christ fulfilled the Law of Moses now the Law is to Israel just as Saul instructs:

16 All [OLD TESTAMENT] scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, [and] for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
2 Ti 3:16–17.

Thus, destroying the false teaching that the Law was "abolished" or [made] "obsolete." If that's the case, then Saul is instructing God's people in Law that doesn't exist. Is that what you believe? If you believe that then NO ONE can be saved for:

24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Gal. 3:24.

The Law brings us to Christ. Take away the Law and NO ONE can be brought to Christ. But thank God that lie is exposed by the very Word of God. And the "reconciling of the world" is in context to whom Saul is writing to and that would be the "world of Jews." It's the same when Jesus said:

16 For God so loved the world [OF JEWS], that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
John 3:16–20.

Context is everything. Jesus came to save His people the Jews:

21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Matt. 1:21.

Who are HIS PEOPLE, Red Baker?
The Hebrew people of the seed of Abraham.

Now, we could spend as much time in Romans eleven as you desire to do, for Paul is addressing the very elect among the Jews that were having trouble reconciling OT scriptures, with the the very fact that God is now visiting the Gentiles nations to take out of them a people for his name sake.

He is taking out FROM AMONG THE GENTILES where He scattered His people a people to Himself: the Jews.

23 And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, saith the Lord GOD, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes.
24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.
25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
26 A new heart also will I give you, and fa new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.
Ezekiel 36:23–28.

Jesus sent His eleven apostles and Saul and others "TO THE GENTILES" because that's where He scattered His people. Read verse 24 again. Let that settle in your mind. And verse 26 began on the day of the Jewish Feast of Harvest also known as Pentecost, where 3,000 Jews were born-again by the Holy Spirit of Promise PROMISED TO ISRAEL as prophesied by Joel.

Also, Jerusalem was no longer the place to go to worship, the temple no longer the temple of God, thereby some natural branches were having trouble understanding these truths, and it was to them that Paul labored to save them to the truth~he did not labor to saved them from their sin and condemnation, the power of God did that for some of them, the very ones he sought to help ~ he did labor to save them in a practical sense, and he knew it was be much easier for them since they were born into the Olive tree which their fathers had enjoyed the fatness thereof for almost four thousand tress. Romans eleven is a much disputed section of the book of Romans, even more so than chapter 9, and very few truly understand chapter eleven.

Romans 11 is not disputed by me. I understand it. John's gospel, Saul's letters, Peter's letters, Hebrews, and that of James was written to and for Jews so that they may come to know their Lord.

31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
John 20:31.

 

[Red Baker]

From: @Jim
@jeremiah1five said

17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
Romans 11:14–17.

The image of the olive tree is used symbolically in the Bible, particularly in relation to Israel.
This passage in the New Testament, written by the Apostle Paul, uses the olive tree as an allegory.
It describes Israel as a cultivated olive tree, with some of its branches (referring to some of the Jewish people) having been broken off. There are also older testament references. For example, Jeremiah 11:16, where God referred to Israel as a green Olive tree, fair, and of goodly fruit. The olive tree also appears in other contexts throughout the Old Testament, often symbolizing fruitfulness, beauty, and prosperity.
Hosea 14:6 also refers to Israel like an olive tree. The olive tree is a symbol for Israel and God's covenant with his people.

From this Olive tree which is Israel there are branches broken off. These are Jews who were broken off because of disobedience. But Saul here is telling the Jews that God is gracious to graft BACK IN those disobedient Jews again into the Olive tree which is Israel so that the whole tree be prosperous. There is no mention of Gentiles in Saul's analogy. Only Israel. Additionally, nowhere in the Old Testament does God call Gentiles an Olive tree. You are adding to the bible.

"and thou, being a wild olive tree" is a reference to the Gentiles. Of course, he refuses to acknowledge that fact; because, if he did, it would destroy the false idea of the covenant theology that he holds.

 

[Johann]

From this Olive tree which is Israel there are branches broken off. These are Jews who were broken off because of disobedience. But Saul here is telling the Jews that God is gracious to graft BACK IN those disobedient Jews again into the Olive tree which is Israel so that the whole tree be prosperous. There is no mention of Gentiles in Saul's analogy. Only Israel. Additionally, nowhere in the Old Testament does God call Gentiles an Olive tree. You are adding to the bible.

“There is no mention of Gentiles in Saul’s analogy. Only Israel.” – This is incorrect. Paul explicitly states that Gentiles are grafted into the olive tree (Romans 11:17, 19, 24). He describes them as "wild olive branches" grafted into the cultivated tree, which represents participation in God's blessings and covenantal relationship.

Romans 9–11 addresses the question of Israel’s rejection of the Messiah and God’s plan for both Jews and Gentiles. Paul argues that God has not permanently rejected Israel, but rather has allowed a temporary hardening to bring salvation to the Gentiles, with the ultimate goal of provoking Israel to faith (Romans 11:11, 25-26).

2. The Olive Tree and Its Symbolism (Romans 11:16-24)
Romans 11:16
"Εἰ δὲ ἡ ἀπαρχὴ ἁγία, καὶ τὸ φύραμα· καὶ εἰ ἡ ῥίζα ἁγία, καὶ οἱ κλάδοι."
"If the firstfruit is holy, so also is the lump; and if the root is holy, so also are the branches."

Root: Represents the patriarchs (Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob) and the covenantal foundation of Israel (cf. Romans 9:4-5).
Branches: Represent individual Israelites.
Firstfruit and Lump: Similar to Numbers 15:20, the imagery suggests that if the foundation (patriarchs) is set apart for God, so too should be the rest of the nation.
Romans 11:17
"Εἰ δέ τινες τῶν κλάδων ἐξεκλάσθησαν, σὺ δὲ ἀγριέλαιος ὢν ἐνεκεντρίσθης ἐν αὐτοῖς καὶ συγκοινωνὸς τῆς ῥίζης καὶ τῆς πιότητος τῆς ἐλαίας ἐγένου,"
"But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them and became a partaker of the root and richness of the olive tree,"

"Some of the branches were broken off" (τινες τῶν κλάδων ἐξεκλάσθησαν) – This refers to some Israelites who were cut off due to unbelief in Messiah.
"You, being a wild olive tree" (σὺ δὲ ἀγριέλαιος ὢν) – This is a direct reference to Gentiles, confirming that Paul includes them in the analogy.

"Were grafted in among them" (ἐνεκεντρίσθης ἐν αὐτοῖς) – Gentiles do not replace Israel but are grafted into the same covenantal tree, indicating their inclusion in God's plan.
"Partaker of the root and richness of the olive tree" – Gentiles now partake in the covenant blessings originating from the patriarchs.
Romans 11:18
"μὴ κατακαυχῶ τῶν κλάδων· εἰ δὲ κατακαυχᾶσαι, οὐ σὺ τὴν ῥίζαν βαστάζεις, ἀλλ’ ἡ ῥίζα σέ."
"Do not boast against the branches; but if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you."

Gentiles are warned not to become arrogant toward Israel. They are dependent on the Jewish root (patriarchs and covenantal history).
Romans 11:19-20
"ἐρεῖς οὖν· ἐξεκλάσθησαν κλάδοι ἵνα ἐγὼ ἐγκεντρισθῶ. καλῶς· τῇ ἀπιστίᾳ ἐξεκλάσθησαν, σὺ δὲ τῇ πίστει ἕστηκας. μὴ ὑψηλοφρόνει, ἀλλὰ φοβοῦ·"
"You will say then, 'Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.' Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but fear."

Israelites were not removed arbitrarily; they were cut off because of unbelief (ἀπιστίᾳ).

Gentiles stand by faith (πίστει), not by merit.

A warning is issued against pride and overconfidence.
Romans 11:21-22
"εἰ γὰρ ὁ θεὸς τῶν κατὰ φύσιν κλάδων οὐκ ἐφείσατο, μήπως οὐδὲ σοῦ φείσηται. ἴδε οὖν χρηστότητα καὶ ἀποτομίαν θεοῦ· ἐπὶ μὲν τοὺς πεσόντας ἀποτομία, ἐπὶ δὲ σὲ χρηστότης θεοῦ, ἐὰν ἐπιμένῃς τῇ χρηστότητι· ἐπεὶ καὶ σὺ ἐκκοπήσῃ."
"For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. Therefore, consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off."

The natural branches (Jews) were cut off for unbelief.
Gentiles are not secure by default; if they turn away from faith, they too will be cut off.
Paul emphasizes both God's kindness (χρηστότης) and severity (ἀποτομία).

Romans 11:23-24
"κἀκεῖνοι δέ, ἐὰν μὴ ἐπιμένωσιν τῇ ἀπιστίᾳ, ἐγκεντρισθήσονται· δυνατὸς γάρ ἐστιν ὁ θεὸς πάλιν ἐγκεντρίσαι αὐτούς. εἰ γὰρ σὺ ἐκ τῆς κατὰ φύσιν ἐξεκόπης ἀγριελαίου καὶ παρὰ φύσιν ἐνεκεντρίσθης εἰς καλλιέλαιον, πόσῳ μᾶλλον οὗτοι οἱ κατὰ φύσιν ἐγκεντρισθήσονται τῇ ἰδίᾳ ἐλαίᾳ;"
"And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. For if you were cut out of the wild olive tree, which is contrary to nature, and were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?"

God is able to graft Israel back in if they believe – This reinforces that God's covenant with Israel is not annulled.
Gentiles (wild branches) were grafted in "contrary to nature" – This confirms their inclusion was an act of divine grace.
Jews (natural branches) will be more readily grafted back in – Their restoration is anticipated.

3. Summary of Key Points
The olive tree represents the covenantal blessings of God through Israel, not just Israel as an ethnic entity.
Gentiles are explicitly included in the analogy (Romans 11:17-24).
Jewish branches were broken off due to unbelief, not because they were Jewish.
Gentiles were grafted in by faith, not by replacing Israel.
Paul expects and encourages the restoration of Israel (Romans 11:23-24).

J.

 

[Jim]

@Johann, that quote you attributed to Red Baker was actually a quote from @jeremiah1five which I referenced and took issue with. Your response was, as is typical, in much greater depth than anything that I said.

 

[Johann]

@Johann, that quote you attributed to Red Baker was actually a quote from @jeremiah1five which I referenced and took issue with. Your response was, as is typical, in much greater depth than anything that I said.

Noted @Jim.

Johann.

 

[jeremiah1five]

Jeremiah, you are just as blinded as the Jews were in Jesus' day.

The Jews weren't blinded in Jesus' day. Multitudes of people flocked to Jesus, and it even says some wanted to take Him by force and make Him their King. Jesus not opened blind eyes but also opened the minds of the people to His identity and purpose.

Notice Paul said clearly: "For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world"~The Jews as a nation are forever cast off as a nation, a very small, and I emphasis, a very small remnant are part of the children of Abraham since Christ, before Christ a larger number, but only then, those that had faith ~ had faith because they were part of the children of God's promises just as it is now.

There are millions of Jews who accept Jesus as their Messiah. Then, there are also "Gentiles" who think themselves as Gentiles that are born-again by the Spirit of Promise PROMISED TO ISRAEL. These so-called "Gentiles" who are truly born-again as promised by God to Abraham and his seed are a people that God knows would have had at least one Hebrew parent in their ancestry. Remember, God made promise to Abraham and his seed excluding non-Hebrew Gentiles in any of the covenants God made with the children of Israel. In history God scattered the Jews among the Gentiles four times. And I'm sure some for many reasons married a Gentile and such bloodlines are tied to God's promises to Abraham and his seed no matter the dilution of their DNA.

If Israel is cast off as a nation, why would God birth 3,000 Jews on Pentecost to be the foundation of His Church He promised to build?

Now, we could spend as much time in Romans eleven as you desire to do, for Paul is addressing the very elect among the Jews that were having trouble reconciling OT scriptures, with the the very fact that God is now visiting the Gentiles nations to take out of them a people for his name sake.

Again, God scattered His people among the Gentiles four times in world history: Assyrian conquest and exile; the Babylonian conquest and exile; the Roman destruction of the Jewish Temple and that nation in AD 70; and in Europe in the 1930s. Many Jews escaped Nazi Germany with their very lives. But just as God prophesied their scattering, He also declared that each time He would gather His people to Himself, and that didn't always mean He would gather them ALL back to Israel. There are millions of Jews that still remain in Gentile lands living among Gentiles in their own neighborhoods and grottos. Ezekiel and Jeremiah and Isaiah and several of the 'minor' prophets prophesied their dispersal and regathering. There are Russian Jews, Romanian Jews, Ukrainian Jews, etc.

Also, Jerusalem was no longer the place to go to worship, the temple no longer the temple of God, thereby some natural branches were having trouble understanding these truths, and it was to them that Paul labored to save them to the truth~he did not labor to saved them from their sin and condemnation, the power of God did that for some of them, the very ones he sought to help ~ he did labor to save them in a practical sense, and he knew it was be much easier for them since they were born into the Olive tree which their fathers had enjoyed the fatness thereof for almost four thousand tress. Romans eleven is a much disputed section of the book of Romans, even more so than chapter 9, and very few truly understand chapter eleven.

Romans is written to Jews and Jewish Christians at Rome. Thousands and thousands of Jews traveled to Jerusalem for the Feast which is covered in Acts 2.

7 And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans?
8 And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?
9 Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia,
10 Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes,
11 Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.
Acts 2:7–11.

The Roman Church was founded by these very Jews that returned home in Italy taking with them an outline of Peter's sermon, a testimony of Jesus, and their personal experiences with the Holy Spirit of Promise.

But for now, I want to debate you one on one on many subjects pertaining to Israel. We might as well stay here, since this thread is already moved in this direction.

Let's start with this: Who Is the seed of Abraham? I mean, the biblical, spiritual, true seed of Abraham?

The true biblical natural and spiritual seed of Abraham are those who are his seed. They are as defined by God the Hebrew people no matter their DNA dilution of intermingling with Gentiles whether in the past through conquest, marriage, rape, concubinage and slavery. There are also Jews who maintained their biological integrity by marrying fellow Jews. But I do believe the majority are today mixed heritage Jews-Gentile. Today, millions of Jews live in Gentile lands and may never return to Israel in their lives.

I'll let a natural born son of Abraham tell us who that seed might be.
“Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.”

All the promises to Abraham's seed, were made to Christ.

No, God made promises to Abraham and God will keep His promises to Abraham. Christ was never mentioned in Genesis 12, 15, and 17. But it all began with Abraham asking God for an heir which God granted in Isaac. And while Isaac was alive, he was the rightful heir of the Abraham promises. He waited and longed to have God fulfill those promises in his life and the same can be said of Jacob, and then to Jacob's twelve sons.

God made incredible promises to Abraham and his seed about 4,000 years ago … promises of a land for an everlasting possession, an innumerable family, destruction of their enemies, and blessings on all nations of the earth. Who is the seed of Abraham? Do not attempt to say that the nations of the earth meant Jews that were part of these nation, for the verse YOU quoted of above clearly stated: "For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world,"...Jeremiah, the Jews were cast away as a whole, but not completely ~ and God is reconciling the WORLD to come and enjoyed the fatness of the Olive tree, the world which was wild by nature...."being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:"

It was those mixed heritage Jews who remained in Gentile lands and did not return with Nehemiah with the remnant in 522 BC. They grew up in Gentile lands heavily influenced by Greek culture for about 15-20 generations. Many Jews assimilated and took on the culture of Gentiles. Many were not even circumcised and not having their Temple and living outside of their Promised Land made for a losing of their Hebrew heritage since the Jewish life centered first around the Tabernacle and later their two Temples. But once their Temples were destroyed and they were taken captive and dragged into Gentile lands how much do you think they lost with regard to their heritage? A great deal. I can promise you that. What is your "Gentile" heritage? Are you German? Mexican? Irish? Now you're in America. If you are German, do you still practice the heritage of Germans? No, you don't. That's because you've assimilated into American culture. How many generations of your family practice German culture? I'm sure not all. Nowadays, Jews in America have assimilated into American culture. Bill Shatner is a Canadien Jew. Leonard Nimoy was a Boston Jew. Jack Warner and his three brothers (Warner Bros.) were Jewish. Many Jews in Hollywood in the 20th century were Jewish and they were in majority in California and other places. In 1970 there was a great influx of Jews returning to Israel that a movie was made starring Paul Neuman and an ensemble of Jewish stars. The name of the movie is "Exodus." It's a fair documentation of Jews returning to Israel in large numbers from Russia and other European countries.

We both are from Adam, thereby, both are an Olive tree in that sense..... God first chose and formed the nation of Israel, the Jews, to reveal himself to them, and then he chose to visit the Gentiles nations of this world to do the same with them, bringing the children of God's promises to salvation and a knowledge of the truth.

God did that because He scattered His people into Gentile lands. He scattered His people into Gentile lands four times in history.

Who Is the seed of Abraham? I mean, the biblical, spiritual, true seed of Abraham?
“Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.” Galatians 3:16

Galatians 3:27-29
“For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.”

I'll come back since I have much more to say.

Notice what Saul doesn't say. He doesn't say "Gentiles" but Greek (Hellenized.)

Tell me, were Gentiles ever under the Law of Moses? Were any Gentiles a biological heir of Abraham?
Abraham and Sarah were from the same family. Isaac also married into his family. Gentiles do not come from the loins of Abraham. They come from Ham and Japheth. Shem was a chosen one. Follow his family to Eber then to Abraham. Then to Isaac and Jacob etc. God commanded the Jews to not mingle with the "Goyim" nor learn their ways but that is difficult when God deliberately scatters His people into Gentile lands.

 

[Red Baker]

@Johann, that quote you attributed to Red Baker was actually a quote from @jeremiah1five which I referenced and took issue with. Your response was, as is typical, in much greater depth than anything that I said.

Amen, that's not my quote!

 

[jeremiah1five]

Jeremiah, you are just as blinded as the Jews were in Jesus' day.

The Jews weren't blinded in Jesus' day. Multitudes of people flocked to Jesus, and it even says some wanted to take Him by force and make Him their King. Jesus not opened blind eyes but also opened the minds of the people to His identity and purpose.

Notice Paul said clearly: "For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world"~The Jews as a nation are forever cast off as a nation, a very small, and I emphasis, a very small remnant are part of the children of Abraham since Christ, before Christ a larger number, but only then, those that had faith ~ had faith because they were part of the children of God's promises just as it is now.

There are millions of Jews who accept Jesus as their Messiah. Then, there are also "Gentiles" who think themselves as Gentiles that are born-again by the Spirit of Promise PROMISED TO ISRAEL. These so-called "Gentiles" who are truly born-again as promised by God to Abraham and his seed are a people that God knows would have had at least one Hebrew parent in their ancestry. Remember, God made promise to Abraham and his seed excluding non-Hebrew Gentiles in any of the covenants God made with the children of Israel. In history God scattered the Jews among the Gentiles four times. And I'm sure some for many reasons married a Gentile and such bloodlines are tied to God's promises to Abraham and his seed no matter the dilution of their DNA.

If Israel is cast off as a nation, why would God birth 3,000 Jews on Pentecost to be the foundation of His Church He promised to build?

Now, we could spend as much time in Romans eleven as you desire to do, for Paul is addressing the very elect among the Jews that were having trouble reconciling OT scriptures, with the the very fact that God is now visiting the Gentiles nations to take out of them a people for his name sake.

Again, God scattered His people among the Gentiles four times in world history: Assyrian conquest and exile; the Babylonian conquest and exile; the Roman destruction of the Jewish Temple and that nation in AD 70; and in Europe in the 1930s. Many Jews escaped Nazi Germany with their very lives. But just as God prophesied their scattering, He also declared that each time He would gather His people to Himself, and that didn't always mean He would gather them ALL back to Israel. There are millions of Jews that still remain in Gentile lands living among Gentiles in their own neighborhoods and grottos. Ezekiel and Jeremiah and Isaiah and several of the 'minor' prophets prophesied their dispersal and regathering. There are Russian Jews, Romanian Jews, Ukrainian Jews, etc.

Also, Jerusalem was no longer the place to go to worship, the temple no longer the temple of God, thereby some natural branches were having trouble understanding these truths, and it was to them that Paul labored to save them to the truth~he did not labor to saved them from their sin and condemnation, the power of God did that for some of them, the very ones he sought to help ~ he did labor to save them in a practical sense, and he knew it was be much easier for them since they were born into the Olive tree which their fathers had enjoyed the fatness thereof for almost four thousand tress. Romans eleven is a much disputed section of the book of Romans, even more so than chapter 9, and very few truly understand chapter eleven.

Romans is written to Jews and Jewish Christians at Rome. Thousands and thousands of Jews traveled to Jerusalem for the Feast which is covered in Acts 2.

7 And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans?
8 And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?
9 Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia,
10 Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes,
11 Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.
Acts 2:7–11.

The Roman Church was founded by these very Jews that returned home in Italy taking with them an outline of Peter's sermon, a testimony of Jesus, and their personal experiences with the Holy Spirit of Promise.

But for now, I want to debate you one on one on many subjects pertaining to Israel. We might as well stay here, since this thread is already moved in this direction.

Let's start with this: Who Is the seed of Abraham? I mean, the biblical, spiritual, true seed of Abraham?

The true biblical natural and spiritual seed of Abraham are those who are his seed. They are as defined by God the Hebrew people no matter their DNA dilution of intermingling with Gentiles whether in the past through conquest, marriage, rape, concubinage and slavery. There are also Jews who maintained their biological integrity by marrying fellow Jews. But I do believe the majority are today mixed heritage Jews-Gentile. Today, millions of Jews live in Gentile lands and may never return to Israel in their lives.

I'll let a natural born son of Abraham tell us who that seed might be.
“Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.”

All the promises to Abraham's seed, were made to Christ.

No, God made promises to Abraham and God will keep His promises to Abraham. Christ was never mentioned in Genesis 12, 15, and 17. But it all began with Abraham asking God for an heir which God granted in Isaac. And while Isaac was alive, he was the rightful heir of the Abraham promises. He waited and longed to have God fulfill those promises in his life and the same can be said of Jacob, and then to Jacob's twelve sons.

God made incredible promises to Abraham and his seed about 4,000 years ago … promises of a land for an everlasting possession, an innumerable family, destruction of their enemies, and blessings on all nations of the earth. Who is the seed of Abraham? Do not attempt to say that the nations of the earth meant Jews that were part of these nation, for the verse YOU quoted of above clearly stated: "For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world,"...Jeremiah, the Jews were cast away as a whole, but not completely ~ and God is reconciling the WORLD to come and enjoyed the fatness of the Olive tree, the world which was wild by nature...."being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:"

It was those mixed heritage Jews who remained in Gentile lands and did not return with Nehemiah with the remnant in 522 BC. They grew up in Gentile lands heavily influenced by Greek culture for about 15-20 generations. Many Jews assimilated and took on the culture of Gentiles. Many were not even circumcised and not having their Temple and living outside of their Promised Land made for a losing of their Hebrew heritage since the Jewish life centered first around the Tabernacle and later their two Temples. But once their Temples were destroyed and they were taken captive and dragged into Gentile lands how much do you think they lost with regard to their heritage? A great deal. I can promise you that. What is your "Gentile" heritage? Are you German? Mexican? Irish? Now you're in America. If you are German, do you still practice the heritage of Germans? No, you don't. That's because you've assimilated into American culture. How many generations of your family practice German culture? I'm sure not all. Nowadays, Jews in America have assimilated into American culture. Bill Shatner is a Canadien Jew. Leonard Nimoy was a Boston Jew. Jack Warner and his three brothers (Warner Bros.) were Jewish. Many Jews in Hollywood in the 20th century were Jewish and they were in majority in California and other places. In 1970 there was a great influx of Jews returning to Israel that a movie was made starring Paul Neuman and an ensemble of Jewish stars. The name of the movie is "Exodus." It's a fair documentation of Jews returning to Israel in large numbers from Russia and other European countries.

We both are from Adam, thereby, both are an Olive tree in that sense..... God first chose and formed the nation of Israel, the Jews, to reveal himself to them, and then he chose to visit the Gentiles nations of this world to do the same with them, bringing the children of God's promises to salvation and a knowledge of the truth.

God did that because He scattered His people into Gentile lands. He scattered His people into Gentile lands four times in history.

Who Is the seed of Abraham? I mean, the biblical, spiritual, true seed of Abraham?
“Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.” Galatians 3:16

Galatians 3:27-29
“For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.”

I'll come back since I have much more to say.

Notice what Saul doesn't say. He doesn't say "Gentiles" but Greek (Hellenized.)

Tell me, were Gentiles ever under the Law of Moses? Were any Gentiles a biological heir of Abraham?
Abraham and Sarah were from the same family. Isaac also married into his family. Gentiles do not come from the loins of Abraham. They come from Ham and Japheth. Shem was a chosen one. Follow his family to Eber then to Abraham. Then to Isaac and Jacob etc. God commanded the Jews to not mingle with the "Goyim" nor learn their ways but that is difficult when God deliberately scatters His people into Gentile lands.

From: @Jim
@jeremiah1five said

17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
Romans 11:14–17.

The image of the olive tree is used symbolically in the Bible, particularly in relation to Israel.
This passage in the New Testament, written by the Apostle Paul, uses the olive tree as an allegory.
It describes Israel as a cultivated olive tree, with some of its branches (referring to some of the Jewish people) having been broken off. There are also older testament references. For example, Jeremiah 11:16, where God referred to Israel as a green Olive tree, fair, and of goodly fruit. The olive tree also appears in other contexts throughout the Old Testament, often symbolizing fruitfulness, beauty, and prosperity.
Hosea 14:6 also refers to Israel like an olive tree. The olive tree is a symbol for Israel and God's covenant with his people.

From this Olive tree which is Israel there are branches broken off. These are Jews who were broken off because of disobedience. But Saul here is telling the Jews that God is gracious to graft BACK IN those disobedient Jews again into the Olive tree which is Israel so that the whole tree be prosperous. There is no mention of Gentiles in Saul's analogy. Only Israel. Additionally, nowhere in the Old Testament does God call Gentiles an Olive tree. You are adding to the bible.

"and thou, being a wild olive tree" is a reference to the Gentiles. Of course, he refuses to acknowledge that fact; because, if he did, it would destroy the false idea of the covenant theology that he holds.

Israel is represented as an Olive tree.

Israel, NOT Gentiles.

 

[Red Baker]

Jeremiah 1 Five said: The promise to build His Church [Greek: "ekklesia" = "called out [ones].") A direct reference to Israel as a "Great Congregation" in the desert at the time of the Tabernacle and beyond. Israel, as was with baby Jesus, were called out of Egypt.
65 And at that time Solomon held a feast, and all Israel with him, a great congregation, from the entering in of Hamath unto the river of Egypt, before the LORD our God, seven days and seven days, even fourteen days.
1 Ki 8:65.

1 Furthermore David the king said unto all the congregation, Solomon my son, whom alone God hath chosen, is yet young and tender, and the work is great: for the palace is not for man, but for the LORD God.
1 Ch 29:1.

25 My praise shall be of thee in the great congregation:
I will pay my vows before them that fear him.
Psalm 22:25.

And on the day of the Jewish Feast of Harvest Jesus Christ through the Holy Spirit of Promise PROMISED TO ISRAEL BY JOEL began that building of His Church by delivering from sin three thousand Jews.

41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
Acts 2:41.

IF Israel was cast off as a nation why did Jesus begin the spiritual building of the natural Olive tree Israel with the saving of three thousand Jews? That is a very large number of maybe a million of attendees at this Jewish Feast circa AD 32. But there's more to become saved:

47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.
Acts 2:47.

The Jews having favor with God and the people. And the Lord added thousands to His Church, that Great Congregation of Jews, daily "such as should be saved." Imagine that. A nation you claim is "cast off" [and ended] comes roaring back with the personal salvation of thousands of Jews daily into the foundation of the Church of the Lord Jesus Christ. Seems to me Jesus Christ is not casting off but BUILDING a Church of "called out [ones]."
Thousands and thousands daily were being born-again, filled with the Holy Spirit of Promise and having favor with all the Jewish people as they began to see these events as fulfillment of Joel's prophecy of God giving His Spirit - which is necessary to salvation - to the Jews.

27 And ye shall know that I am in the midst of Israel,
And that I am the LORD your God, and none else:
And my people shall never be ashamed.
28 And it shall come to pass afterward,
That I will pour out my spirit upon all [Hebrew] flesh;
And your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
Your old men shall dream dreams,
Your young men shall see visions:
29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids
In those days will I pour out my spirit.
30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth,
Blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.
31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood,
Before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.
32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered:
For in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance,
As the LORD hath said,
And in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.
Joel 2:27–32.

It doesn't say "In Gentiles" or "among Gentiles" there will be salvation. It says "IN MOUNT ZION AND IN JERUSALEM" - possessions of the Jewish people, owners of the Promised Land that sees the salvation of the Lord.
Everyday going forward thousands and thousands of Jews being born-again in fulfillment of dozens of prophecies to Israel by God were being born-again and being filled with the Holy Spirit of Promise. And to whom was God's Spirit promised to?
To the Jewish people.

38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
Acts 2:38–40.

I don't see the "casting off" of the Jewish people, but the building and re-building of this great congregation of people. Every day since the Feast of Harvest Jesus Christ is giving the Jewish people His Spirit and is building back up this great congregation of people. Don't you see this? Or, does Scripture hold nothing towards what you are to believe as the truth of God. Can you continue to say and believe the false teaching you claim of God "cast off" this nation of people?

Tell me.

 

[Red Baker]

Jeremiah 1 Five said: Cast off? But Saul says "and ALL Israel shall be saved." And saved they ALL shall be for they have that kind of covenant in Moses. And since Christ fulfilled the Law of Moses now the Law is to Israel just as Saul instructs:

16 All [OLD TESTAMENT] scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, [and] for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
2 Ti 3:16–17.

Thus, destroying the false teaching that the Law was "abolished" or [made] "obsolete." If that's the case, then Saul is instructing God's people in Law that doesn't exist. Is that what you believe? If you believe that then NO ONE can be saved for:

24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Gal. 3:24.

The Law brings us to Christ. Take away the Law and NO ONE can be brought to Christ. But thank God that lie is exposed by the very Word of God. And the "reconciling of the world" is in context to whom Saul is writing to and that would be the "world of Jews." It's the same when Jesus said:

16 For God so loved the world [OF JEWS], that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
John 3:16–20.

Context is everything. Jesus came to save His people the Jews:

21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Matt. 1:21.

Who are HIS PEOPLE, Red Baker?
The Hebrew people of the seed of Abraham.

He is taking out FROM AMONG THE GENTILES where He scattered His people a people to Himself: the Jews.

23 And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, saith the Lord GOD, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes.
24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.
25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
26 A new heart also will I give you, and fa new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.
Ezekiel 36:23–28.

Jesus sent His eleven apostles and Saul and others "TO THE GENTILES" because that's where He scattered His people. Read verse 24 again. Let that settle in your mind. And verse 26 began on the day of the Jewish Feast of Harvest also known as Pentecost, where 3,000 Jews were born-again by the Holy Spirit of Promise PROMISED TO ISRAEL as prophesied by Joel.

Romans 11 is not disputed by me. I understand it. John's gospel, Saul's letters, Peter's letters, Hebrews, and that of James was written to and for Jews so that they may come to know their Lord.

31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
John 20:31.

 

[Red Baker]

Jeremiah 1 Five said: Cast off? But Saul says "and ALL Israel shall be saved." And saved they ALL shall be for they have that kind of covenant in Moses. And since Christ fulfilled the Law of Moses now the Law is to Israel just as Saul instructs:

16 All [OLD TESTAMENT] scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, [and] for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
2 Ti 3:16–17.

Thus, destroying the false teaching that the Law was "abolished" or [made] "obsolete." If that's the case, then Saul is instructing God's people in Law that doesn't exist. Is that what you believe? If you believe that then NO ONE can be saved for:

24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Gal. 3:24.

The Law brings us to Christ. Take away the Law and NO ONE can be brought to Christ. But thank God that lie is exposed by the very Word of God. And the "reconciling of the world" is in context to whom Saul is writing to and that would be the "world of Jews." It's the same when Jesus said:

16 For God so loved the world [OF JEWS], that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
John 3:16–20.

Context is everything. Jesus came to save His people the Jews:

21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Matt. 1:21.

Who are HIS PEOPLE, Red Baker?
The Hebrew people of the seed of Abraham.

He is taking out FROM AMONG THE GENTILES where He scattered His people a people to Himself: the Jews.

23 And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, saith the Lord GOD, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes.
24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.
25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
26 A new heart also will I give you, and fa new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.
Ezekiel 36:23–28.

Jesus sent His eleven apostles and Saul and others "TO THE GENTILES" because that's where He scattered His people. Read verse 24 again. Let that settle in your mind. And verse 26 began on the day of the Jewish Feast of Harvest also known as Pentecost, where 3,000 Jews were born-again by the Holy Spirit of Promise PROMISED TO ISRAEL as prophesied by Joel.

Romans 11 is not disputed by me. I understand it. John's gospel, Saul's letters, Peter's letters, Hebrews, and that of James was written to and for Jews so that they may come to know their Lord.

31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
John 20:31.

 

[Red Baker]

Jeremiah 1 Five said: The promise to build His Church [Greek: "ekklesia" = "called out [ones].") A direct reference to Israel as a "Great Congregation" in the desert at the time of the Tabernacle and beyond. Israel, as was with baby Jesus, were called out of Egypt.
65 And at that time Solomon held a feast, and all Israel with him, a great congregation, from the entering in of Hamath unto the river of Egypt, before the LORD our God, seven days and seven days, even fourteen days.
1 Ki 8:65.

1 Furthermore David the king said unto all the congregation, Solomon my son, whom alone God hath chosen, is yet young and tender, and the work is great: for the palace is not for man, but for the LORD God.
1 Ch 29:1.

25 My praise shall be of thee in the great congregation:
I will pay my vows before them that fear him.
Psalm 22:25.

@jeremiah1five

It is very true that during the time of the true biblical reformation from 33A.D to around 70 A.D. plus (Hebrews 9:10) many thousand of Jews came to faith, that is very clear from the scriptures. Nevertheless, it is just as clear, that more Gentiles throughout the Romans Empire, so many thousands of Gentiles Churches rose up who rejoice that they were been visited by the God of heaven though the ministry of Paul and others, but mainly Paul, Luke, and Timothy, etc. Timothy's father was a Greek, his mother was a Jewess.

Acts 16:1​

“Then came he to Derbe and Lystra: and, behold, a certain disciple was there, named Timotheus, the son of a certain woman, which was a Jewess, and believed; but his father was a Greek:”

Jeremiah, have you never considered the following scriptures: (there're hundred more)

Romans 15:10​

“And again he saith, Rejoice, ye Gentiles, with his people.”

Moses said:

Deuteronomy 32:43​

“Rejoice, O ye nations, with his people: for he will avenge the blood of his servants, and will render vengeance to his adversaries, and will be merciful unto his land, and to his people.”

Luke 2:32​

“A light to lighten the Gentiles, and the glory of thy people Israel.”

Matthew 12:21​

“And in his name shall the Gentiles trust.”

The great congregation is made up of both Jews and Gentiles, a mystery hidden in the OT scriptures that we shall consider soon, the Lord willing.

IF Israel was cast off as a nation why did Jesus begin the spiritual building of the natural Olive tree Israel with the saving of three thousand Jews? That is a very large number of maybe a million of attendees at this Jewish Feast circa AD 32. But there's more to become saved:

47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.
Acts 2:47.

You are not hearing the scriptures. "As a nation", the natural children of Abraham, are cut off as far as being the nation, whom God is the God of, as He was from Jacob onward until Christ. Israel, and Jacob typified to the very elect, among both Jewess and Gentiles believers. This is a hidden mystery in the OT scriptures revealed by apostles who were Jews, to us Gentiles. I will look at this mystery as soon as I answer this post.

The Jews having favor with God and the people. And the Lord added thousands to His Church, that Great Congregation of Jews, daily "such as should be saved." Imagine that. A nation you claim is "cast off" [and ended] comes roaring back with the personal salvation of thousands of Jews daily into the foundation of the Church of the Lord Jesus Christ. Seems to me Jesus Christ is not casting off but BUILDING a Church of "called out [ones]."
Thousands and thousands daily were being born-again, filled with the Holy Spirit of Promise and having favor with all the Jewish people as they began to see these events as fulfillment of Joel's prophecy of God giving His Spirit - which is necessary to salvation - to the Jews.

Jeremiah, so far you are correct, but things will soon change drastically starting around Acts ten, as we shall see! The gospel was to the Jews first, and then to the Gentiles and it has been here every since until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled, which it seems they are fast approaching. We shall address this very soon.

It doesn't say "In Gentiles" or "among Gentiles" there will be salvation. It says "IN MOUNT ZION AND IN JERUSALEM" - possessions of the Jewish people, owners of the Promised Land that sees the salvation of the Lord.
Everyday going forward thousands and thousands of Jews being born-again in fulfillment of dozens of prophecies to Israel by God were being born-again and being filled with the Holy Spirit of Promise. And to whom was God's Spirit promised to?
To the Jewish people.

True, up until Acts ten!

Tell me.

Look for a post coming, maybe tomorrow~it will be no problem, the problem will be will you admit the truth of the scriptures.