When You See JERUSALEM Surrounded By Armies, Luke 21

[JLB]

Cute. You disregard that there are various competing interpretations. You disregard that Paul shared this over 1900 years ago as if nothing happened after he wrote the warnings. You fail to recognize these were warnings to people who would have known whether the resurrection had happened because they would not be on earth anymore to read Paul's cautions. Perhaps you can explain how they would doubt if they were resurrected or not. I would love to hear your insight into that point.

There is no competing interpretations about His coming and the resurrection of the dead.


For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming. Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power.
1 Corinthians 15:22-24


When He returns the dead in Christ will be resurrected and have glorified bodies like Jesus that will never die.

• those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage; nor can they die anymore

But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage; nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection. Luke 20:35-36


The resurrection is yet to come. Promoting a doctrine that says the resurrection is past is heresy.


Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. 2 John 9


Heretics who teach people to transgress the doctrine of Christ will not inherit the kingdom of God.


Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:19-21

 

[mikesw]

There is no competing interpretations about His coming and the resurrection of the dead.


For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming. Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power.
1 Corinthians 15:22-24


When He returns the dead in Christ will be resurrected and have glorified bodies like Jesus that will never die.

• those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage; nor can they die anymore

But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage; nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection. Luke 20:35-36


The resurrection is yet to come. Promoting a doctrine that says the resurrection is past is heresy. Remember that it was you who brought up the concept that people could have missed that they had already been resurrected.


Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. 2 John 9


Heretics who teach people to transgress the doctrine of Christ will not inherit the kingdom of God.


Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:19-21

So you are asserting that you will not inherit the kingdom because you hold to a heresy. Sad to see that happening.

I do not see your explanation how those people could believe the resurrection happened even though they were still on earth. But if you have explained that to yourself, I guess you can stick with that belief to your heart's content. I am not sure that I can untwist your concept there.

 

[JLB]

So you are asserting that you will not inherit the kingdom because you hold to a heresy. Sad to see that happening.

I do not see your explanation how those people could believe the resurrection happened even though they were still on earth. But if you have explained that to yourself, I guess you can stick with that belief to your heart's content. I am not sure that I can untwist your concept there.

Read the words of scripture.

It’s written for all to read and either obey or not.

To give heed to or not.


If you give heed to the doctrine of Christ you will do well.

If you do not then you won’t.


Take heed to yourself and to the doctrine. Continue in them, for in doing this you will save both yourself and those who hear you.
1 Timothy 4:16

 

[Red Baker]

@mikesw

So you are asserting that you will not inherit the kingdom because you hold to a heresy. Sad to see that happening.

I just got in from a long day ~ Let me go aback and carefully read all the posit up to this point ~but I can assure you that a correct understanding of bible prophecy is not a prerequisites to to eternal life, not even close.

Mike, please do not leave this thread, just because you cannot find agreement with your understanding, that is not a good sign that you know the truth, stay here and learn and defend what you thus far see and understand and see where that take you. That's the honorable way of doing things to come to the knowledge of the truth. Show yourself a lover of God seeking his truth. Your brother in the faith of Jesus Christ regardless of your understanding of eschatology. RB

 

[mikesw]

Read the words of scripture.

It’s written for all to read and either obey or not.

To give heed to or not.


If you give heed to the doctrine of Christ you will do well.

If you do not then you won’t.


Take heed to yourself and to the doctrine. Continue in them, for in doing this you will save both yourself and those who hear you.
1 Timothy 4:16

I have followed scripture and can present it to people as I have opportunity. thanks.
You may know that a claim of someone being a heretic solely on your level of reading of scripture is not a sufficient argument against what a person shares from scripture.

 

[mikesw]

@mikesw

I get got in from a long day ~ Let me go aback and carefully read all the posit up to this point ~but I can assure you that a correct understanding of bible prophecy is not a prerequisites to to eternal life, not even close.

Mike, please do not leave this thread, just because you cannot find agreement with your understanding, that is not a good sign that you know the truth, stay here and learn and defend what you thus far see and understand and see where that take you. That's the honorable way of doing things to come to the knowledge of the truth. Show yourself a lover of God seeking his truth. RB

I just mean that a different thread would allow a different starting point without interfering with the train of thought going on in this thread. I know that eschatology has had many views and people can get dedicated to one view but people also can change their views on it. i hope I can lead people into a godly understanding even if they have not seen the text in the way I am showing.

 

[JLB]

I have followed scripture and can present it to people as I have opportunity. thanks.
You may know that a claim of someone being a heretic solely on your level of reading of scripture is not a sufficient argument against what a person shares from scripture.

If you teach the resurrection is past you are teaching a heretical false doctrine.

• saying that the resurrection is already past;

And their message will spread like cancer. Hymenaeus and Philetus are of this sort, who have strayed concerning the truth, saying that the resurrection is already past; and they overthrow the faith of some.
2 Timothy 2:17-18


If you are promoting a doctrine that teaches this then you are actively working together with Satan to overthrow the faith of some.

 

[mikesw]

If you teach the resurrection is past you are teaching a heretical false doctrine.

• saying that the resurrection is already past;

And their message will spread like cancer. Hymenaeus and Philetus are of this sort, who have strayed concerning the truth, saying that the resurrection is already past; and they overthrow the faith of some.
2 Timothy 2:17-18


If you are promoting a doctrine that teaches this then you are actively working together with Satan to overthrow the faith of some.

So you wish to discard scripture in favor of your view and speaks against your misconceptions. You accuse me only in your misunderstanding. So, this is forgivable. I do not think it is your intent to distort scripture. You have made two verses your key to interpreting scripture forevermore. That has caused many people to stumble.
I was going to let you have your discussion here on your own but you keep on wanting to deny discussion with your two verses. I know people have had that fear. Don't worry. You can believe what you want on this issue.

More detail:
Some people have encountered full preterists and in that encounter have heard that everything was finished and life would continue endlessly in a drab state with no future. That idea results from improper interpretation by full preterists and failures of other Christians to recognize God has greater blessings than we can imagine. I have never felt that either of those views were correct. Breaking from those two views, we can start to examine what scripture actually shows.

 

[mikesw]

If you teach the resurrection is past you are teaching a heretical false doctrine.

• saying that the resurrection is already past;

And their message will spread like cancer. Hymenaeus and Philetus are of this sort, who have strayed concerning the truth, saying that the resurrection is already past; and they overthrow the faith of some.
2 Timothy 2:17-18


If you are promoting a doctrine that teaches this then you are actively working together with Satan to overthrow the faith of some.

Thanks for sharing those verses. They are useful for a little analysis of resurrection found in the NT.

 

[Red Baker]

@JLB

If you teach the resurrection is past you are teaching a heretical false doctrine.

Yes, that's to be rejected as a man made doctrine, turning men from the truth, without question. Let me get caught up. I might just go and make a posit on Revelation 20 first, so that I will not to do double work in order to state my understanding clearly, and then go back and answer some other posit.

 

[Selah]

And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles.And it shall be that whichever of the families of the earth do not come up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, on them there will be no rain. Zechariah 14:16-17


Jesus will literally dwell in Jerusalem and be King over the whole earth.


The nations will come to worship Him year after year.


Do the nations come to Jerusalem year after year to worship Jesus Christ?

Yes. This is Jesus’ millennial kingdom. And those who are part of the First Resurrection at the Second Coming of Jesus, will reign with Him for the entire 1000 years during the Millennium.

Revelation 20:4 (NKJV) And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then [I saw] the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received [his] mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

—selah

 

[JLB]

Yes. This is Jesus’ millennial kingdom. And those who are part of the First Resurrection at the Second Coming of Jesus, will reign with Him for the entire 1000 years during the Millennium.

Revelation 20:4 (NKJV) And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then [I saw] the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received [his] mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

—selah

Amen.

 

[JLB]

Yes. This is Jesus’ millennial kingdom. And those who are part of the First Resurrection at the Second Coming of Jesus, will reign with Him for the entire 1000 years during the Millennium.

Revelation 20:4 (NKJV) And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then [I saw] the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received [his] mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

—selah

@JLB

Yes, that's to be rejected as a man made doctrine, turning men from the truth, without question. Let me get caught up. I might just go and make a posit on Revelation 20 first, so that I will not to do double work in order to state my understanding clearly, and then go back and answer some other posit.

To be fair we should all share insights that we see from the following passage that may be confusing to those wanting to understand.


I will begin.


Then, behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth quaked, and the rocks were split, and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many. Matthew 27:51-53

• and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many.

This is not the first resurrection.

This is not the resurrection of the dead in Christ that occurs at His coming.


These are some of the Old Testament saints that were in Paradise, in the heart of the earth, also known as Abraham’s bosom that the Lord Jesus Christ allowed to appear to many in Jerusalem to be witnesses of His resurrection and spread the news.

These did not have their glorified bodies that shine like the sun yet, because that will occur for all His saints at the same time, at His coming.


Jesus brought the rest of the Old Testament saints up out of “captivity” when He rose on the third day.


All the Old Testament saints went to heaven with Him when He ascended and are their now with all who have died in Christ, that we should all return together to receive the promise together;
the promise of everlasting life, when we are made complete having received together bodies that will never die and shines like the sun. This we all eagerly wait for groaning as it were along with all of creation.

These resurrection of the dead in Christ is where we are all gathered together, and are made complete, having glorified bodies like our Savior.


Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body. Romans 8:23

again


Women received their dead raised to life again.
Others were tortured, not accepting deliverance, that they might obtain a better resurrection. Still others had trial of mockings and scourgings, yes, and of chains and imprisonment. They were stoned, they were sawn in two, were tempted, were slain with the sword. They wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins, being destitute, afflicted, tormented— of whom the world was not worthy. They wandered in deserts and mountains, in dens and caves of the earth.
And all these, having obtained a good testimony through faith, did not receive the promise, God having provided something better for us, that they should not be made perfect apart from us.
Hebrews 11:35-40


Please share your insights and understanding of this passage from Matthew 27:51-53


We see in part.


I hope to gain more understanding from the part you guys see.

 

[armylngst]

So you are saying that despite Matthew and Luke having all the same elements in view that they cannot be the same event? Then you are saying that Jerusalem has to be destroyed again even though it was judged in finality by the loss of the Temple?

You are catching on. It's a multi-fulfillment prophecy. The first time is God's judgment on Israel in AD 70 which is why Luke phrases it as saying, when you see the armies surrounding the city, know that its desolation is at hand. In Matthew 24, it says that when you see the abomination of desolation of Daniel in the holy place (which is another multi-fulfillment prophecy, but in Daniel), know that a great tribulation is coming, unlike anything the world has ever seen. Luke 21 may be the time of Jacob's trouble, of which scripture says that it will be like anything from the founding of the nation of Israel until the end. Notice how it is isolated to Israel, while the Great Tribulation Jesus speaks of is isolated to.. the world and world history.

That seems like too fine of a line to draw. You are asking for Jews to again be so misbehaved that they have to then build another temple and do this all over again. Christians again will have to flee Jerusalem (Matt 24:15-16). Within this destruction, a fresh crop of the elect will live on (Matt 24:22).

Well, they don't have a temple right now, and they are prepared to rebuild it. It is possible that in the course of peace with Palestine, they may get the right to rebuild it. Or at some other point in the near future. Do note that Old Testament prophecy has Ezekiel, I believe, measuring the temple, and its measurements do not match Solomon's temple, or the second temple built by Herod, destroyed in 70 AD. It is another temple prophesied about.

My big complaint against a futurist view of this is that the reason for the Matt 24/Luke 21 events was the judgment of the people of Israel for failing to turn away from their sins and to be restored to God, except a small minority (the elect) who were preserved. After that, the requirement has been to be reconciled through Jesus Christ and in that manner become joined to the Jerusalem above (Gal 4:26). This detail is only the mere surface of the testimony of scripture. You can even start in Deut 32 to see what the state of the people would be.

And that is what they are. However, the first destruction is dealing with the final exile God speaks of in the Old Testament, and Jesus brings up in Luke 21. The Great Diaspora. At Jerusalem they were put to the sword, or they were exiled to the nations. If you read the history, those who survived were free to do whatever they wanted... as long as it wasn't in Jerusalem/Israel. Exiled. Consider that Luke 21 speaks to the desolation of Israel and Jerusalem, however Matthew 24 does not. Matthew 24 only speaks to the abomination of desolation, and a Great Tribulation. One can assume there is a destruction of the temple in Matthew 24, but there is nothing to support that assumption in the passage. In Luke 21, it is rather obvious that it is speaking to the destruction, and the final exile with the Great Diaspora that didn't come to an end until 1948, when Israel became a nation again. (Against all odds, might I add. Only the futurists believed it could happen. Those who weren't futurists spoke of its impossibility up to the moment it actually happened.)

 

[mikesw]

@mikesw

I just got in from a long day ~ Let me go aback and carefully read all the posit up to this point ~but I can assure you that a correct understanding of bible prophecy is not a prerequisites to to eternal life, not even close.

Mike, please do not leave this thread, just because you cannot find agreement with your understanding, that is not a good sign that you know the truth, stay here and learn and defend what you thus far see and understand and see where that take you. That's the honorable way of doing things to come to the knowledge of the truth. Show yourself a lover of God seeking his truth. Your brother in the faith of Jesus Christ regardless of your understanding of eschatology. RB

I have been writing on various details of my proposed reading. Ideas from recent topics of my are blending into this study. But it is a radical change from common views. That is the reason for my present delay.

 

[DavidTree]

So you wish to discard scripture in favor of your view and speaks against your misconceptions. You accuse me only in your misunderstanding. So, this is forgivable. I do not think it is your intent to distort scripture. You have made two verses your key to interpreting scripture forevermore. That has caused many people to stumble.
I was going to let you have your discussion here on your own but you keep on wanting to deny discussion with your two verses. I know people have had that fear. Don't worry. You can believe what you want on this issue.

More detail:
Some people have encountered full preterists and in that encounter have heard that everything was finished and life would continue endlessly in a drab state with no future. That idea results from improper interpretation by full preterists and failures of other Christians to recognize God has greater blessings than we can imagine. I have never felt that either of those views were correct. Breaking from those two views, we can start to examine what scripture actually shows.

Do you believe the Resurrection of the Saints who have died has already taken place?

 

[DavidTree]

You are catching on. It's a multi-fulfillment prophecy. The first time is God's judgment on Israel in AD 70 which is why Luke phrases it as saying, when you see the armies surrounding the city, know that its desolation is at hand. In Matthew 24, it says that when you see the abomination of desolation of Daniel in the holy place (which is another multi-fulfillment prophecy, but in Daniel), know that a great tribulation is coming, unlike anything the world has ever seen. Luke 21 may be the time of Jacob's trouble, of which scripture says that it will be like anything from the founding of the nation of Israel until the end. Notice how it is isolated to Israel, while the Great Tribulation Jesus speaks of is isolated to.. the world and world history.

Well, they don't have a temple right now, and they are prepared to rebuild it. It is possible that in the course of peace with Palestine, they may get the right to rebuild it. Or at some other point in the near future. Do note that Old Testament prophecy has Ezekiel, I believe, measuring the temple, and its measurements do not match Solomon's temple, or the second temple built by Herod, destroyed in 70 AD. It is another temple prophesied about.

And that is what they are. However, the first destruction is dealing with the final exile God speaks of in the Old Testament, and Jesus brings up in Luke 21. The Great Diaspora. At Jerusalem they were put to the sword, or they were exiled to the nations. If you read the history, those who survived were free to do whatever they wanted... as long as it wasn't in Jerusalem/Israel. Exiled. Consider that Luke 21 speaks to the desolation of Israel and Jerusalem, however Matthew 24 does not. Matthew 24 only speaks to the abomination of desolation, and a Great Tribulation. One can assume there is a destruction of the temple in Matthew 24, but there is nothing to support that assumption in the passage. In Luke 21, it is rather obvious that it is speaking to the destruction, and the final exile with the Great Diaspora that didn't come to an end until 1948, when Israel became a nation again. (Against all odds, might I add. Only the futurists believed it could happen. Those who weren't futurists spoke of its impossibility up to the moment it actually happened.)

The Jews were not free from the law no matter where they ended up, even to this day.

Do not think that I shall accuse you to the Father; there is one who accuses you—Moses, in whom you trust.

 

[mikesw]

Do you believe the Resurrection of the Saints who have died has already taken place?

Yes. I go with what Jesus said in John 5:25-29. Are you willing to follow where scripture leads, even it it does not match beliefs that you held as central?
Also importantly, what level of study have you done on the resurrection in scriptures?

 

[DavidTree]

Yes. I go with what Jesus said in John 5:25-29. Are you willing to follow where scripture leads, even it it does not match beliefs that you held as central?
Also importantly, what level of study have you done on the resurrection in scriptures?

My beliefs and yours are inconsequential if they do not agree with the Way the Truth and the Life.

Therefore, we both must be willing to follow scripture to where Scripture leads us when guided by the Holy Spirit.

John 5:25-29
Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live. For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself, and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man. Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

Ready, Set, Go

 

[mikesw]

My beliefs and yours are inconsequential if they do not agree with the Way the Truth and the Life.

Therefore, we both must be willing to follow scripture to where Scripture leads us when guided by the Holy Spirit.

John 5:25-29
Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live. For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself, and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man. Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

Ready, Set, Go

Then you know what Jesus is essentially quoting?