What is the Gospel

[brightfame52]

Hearing, learning, and obeying are all commandments of God.

again they are spiritual activities proceeding out of Spiritual life

 

[Studyman]

@Red Baker and I have been battering back and forth for many years now. I really do not expect to convert him, although I do keep hoping that one day he will come to the truth that the TULIP religion is wrong and come to the truth of the Gospel of God. I do it for two main reasons. The first is that @Red is quite good at presenting his views, so through our interchanges I think a receive a very good presentation of the TULIP religious side of things. Second I continue to do it mostly so that others reading here might get a countering to the TULIP religion, even if they do not enter into a discussion themselves.

That's a great point. I think it is true, that because of my decades of discussions with Red and other promoters of Calvinism, I have become more in tune with the actual scriptures, and if asked, can better present an alternative understanding that considers the teaching of the entire bible, as opposed to the practice of avoiding scriptures that can't be used to promote TULIP philosophy.

I forget sometimes that maybe the arguments are for my edification too, and we do study the philosophy in my study group, by taking Red's presentations of TULIP and comparing it to the actual Word of God when Every Word is considered. So it has been beneficial to the whole body as well.

Finally in answer to your question, I think on the one hand there is a point at which it probably makes no sense in continuing to argue with specific promoters of Calvinism, etc., but on the other hand, that is the world and are we not to take the truth to the world? And also, quite frankly, I am not one to stand on the street corner preaching to the world; so engaging in such forums as this one and with those in my own congregation is likely the way for me to most often speak on such things.

What a wonderful mindset. I am also not one to go door to door handing out pamphlets. And the Forum does help keep me centered in Scriptures, and the topics discussed here has been a wonderful study exercise for the flock that has received me.

Plus I learn a lot about myself, and the issues in me that I need to work on.

Thanks Jim, great advice.

 

[Red Baker]

@Jim

Adam is not even mentioned in Romans 5:1-10, let alone that his sin affected us.

Sorry for the reference, not sure how I typed Romans 5:1-10 when I meant to type Romans 5:12-19, which you should have understood that, after all, I have went word for word through those verses with you over years, but maybe you have forgotten, which does come with years, and we both are getting up.

And the reference to Adam in 1 Corinthians 15:22 is only a reference to our being humans. As human beings we die physically.

Not even close Jim, but, it seems more and more to me, you just do not care, but you are more interesting in protecting your work gospel.

1st Corinthians 15:21,22~"For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive."

Jim, death came on men by one’s sin ~ Adam ~ which was counted against us (Romans 5;12-14). The resurrection to life comes by one ~ Christ ~ which will surely come to all His elect, chosen in him.

Jim, we did not request death, seek death, or earn death by our selves: it was given by legal representation~imputation.

We do desire life, seek life, and cannot earn life: and it shall be given by representation ~imputation.

Jim, 15:22 Adam and Jesus Christ have important roles as representative for their respective people.​

All that are in Adam, by natural generation, shall suffer the consequence of his sin ~ "death".
All that are in Christ, by sovereign election, shall receive the benefits of His obedience ~"life".

The two representatives do not represent the same peoples, for only some are in Jesus Christ. The death and life considered here are the death of the body (v.21) and the resurrection of the body.

The “as … even so” construction is very powerful in making the representation comparable.

Again Jim, Paul gives a full comparison of the two representatives (Romans 5:12-19).

Again another charge against God for producing human beings incapable believing what God has commanded them to do.

Jim, to whom is the word of God written and given to? Not to the inhabitants of North Sentinel Island in the Bay of Bengal!

Acts 2:39​

“For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.”

Acts 8:31​

“And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him.”

God chooses to whom the word of God will go to, and it is never to every single person of every nation, never has been, never will be.

Acts 16:7-10~"After they were come to Mysia, they assayed to go into Bithynia: but the Spirit suffered them not. And they passing by Mysia came down to Troas. And a vision appeared to Paul in the night; There stood a man of Macedonia, and prayed him, saying, Come over into Macedonia, and help us. And after he had seen the vision, immediately we endeavoured to go into Macedonia, assuredly gathering that the Lord had called us for to preach the gospel unto them."

Luke 4:25-28~"But I tell you of a truth, many widows were in Israel in the days of Elias, when the heaven was shut up three years and six months, when great famine was throughout all the land; But unto none of them was Elias sent, save unto Sarepta, a city of Sidon, unto a woman that was a widow. And many lepers were in Israel in the time of Eliseus the prophet; and none of them was cleansed, saving Naaman the Syrian. And all they in the synagogue, when they heard these things, were filled with wrath,"

God's sovereignty is a hated truth, even more so in our day~but so be it, it still is the truth of the word of God and we shall proclaimed on the housetop.

You are not Peter. He received divine revelation; you only receive the results of divine revelation. You need Peter and what God revealed to Peter. You need a preacher [or today the written words of Peter and the rest of the apostles and prophets] to tell you what God told Peter and the rest of the apostles and prophets.

Then you are not hearing the word of God~Jesus is building his church (called out ones) on "THIS ROCK"... which is: by divine revelation of opening their hearts to the truth, business as usual Jim. You are not hearing what the Spirit is saying, which doesn't surprise me.

The issue is not by whom we are born again; of course, we are born again by God alone. The question is who does God regenerate and how does He choose them. He chooses those who believe in Him.

So wrong! Sinners are regenerated, so that they can hear, see and believe, which apart from the Spirit no man could come, impossible.

John 6:44​

“No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.”

 

[brightfame52]

The two representatives do not represent the same peoples

Correct, Adam represented the elect and the serpent seed, but Christ just the elect

 

[Red Baker]

@Studyman @Jim

That's a great point. I think it is true, that because of my decades of discussions with Red and other promoters of Calvinism,

I've made it very clear over the years, that I do not promote Calvinism per se, neither I'm I ashamed of those that do, because I do believe that lovers of the truth are among those who hold to some form of Calvinism ~ that's not to say, that all Armenians are not of God, that's not for me to say, I'm not God and cannot see the hearts of men.

Please read this to see the distinction between Calvinism, Arminianism, and the truth.

Calvinism, Arminianism, and the Truth

letgodbetrue.com

I have become more in tune with the actual scriptures, and if asked,

This is a two way street you do know that, correct?

can better present an alternative understanding that considers the teaching of the entire bible, as opposed to the practice of avoiding scriptures that can't be used to promote TULIP philosophy.

No system under heaven better considers all scriptures than those men who have taught unconditional election of pure grace, no system! I'm sorry you men have me to deal with, if you had men of God of old, you would have been expose as false prophets in a much greater way than I could have ever do so. I know, I have read behind most all of them over the last fifty plus years, many times over.

Before there was ever a John Calvin, men of God taught these great truths, even Luther who was a little older than Calvin though contemporary with him for a few years, even though they never met in person. I posted ML Bondage of Will above in a few post back. Did you read it, no, I'm sure you did not.

I forget sometimes that maybe the arguments are for my edification too, and we do study the philosophy in my study group, by taking Red's presentations of TULIP and comparing it to the actual Word of God when Every Word is considered. So it has been beneficial to the whole body as well.

Too bad I can not be there to present the truth and let them address me directly!

"by taking Red's presentations of TULIP"~Then you are not presenting what I actually teach if you are using the tulip, beside would not be best to let the person speak for himself, and get it straight from man himself?

 

[Jim]

again they are spiritual activities proceeding out of Spiritual life

Whatever you think they are, they are activities that you say God won't let most people do. That is not the God of the Bible. That is the false God of Augustine.

 

[brightfame52]

Whatever you think they are, they are activities

Yes Spiritual. See man by nature is dead spiritually, he cant hear, see, understand nothing spiritually. He is a corpse spiritually

 

[Jim]

@Jim

Sorry for the reference, not sure how I typed Romans 5:1-10 when I meant to type Romans 5:12-19, which you should have understood that, after all, I have went word for word through those verses with you over years, but maybe you have forgotten, which does come with years, and we both are getting up.

Yes I did know what you really were referring too, but I have so many times showed why you are completely wrong in your interpretations of that particular passage.

Not even close Jim, but, it seems more and more to me, you just do not care, but you are more interesting in protecting your work gospel.

I care deeply about that passage because it more than most other passages on the subject explain specifically why the doctrine of Original Sin is false and that means even more why the doctrine of Total Depravity is not only false but an insult to God if not an outright blaspheme.

Jim, death came on men by one’s sin ~ Adam ~ which was counted against us (Romans 5;12-14). The resurrection to life comes by one ~ Christ ~ which will surely come to all His elect, chosen in him.

NO! NO! NO! Verses 12-14 do not say that. It does not say death came on men by one's sin~Adam. What it says is that death entered the world through Adam's sin. It says that death entered all men because all men sinned. If you cannot the distinction between what you said and what Paul said, then you are blind to the truth of God's word. Moreover, nothing in verses 12-14 even speaks to the resurrection.

Jim, we did not request death, seek death, or earn death by our selves: it was given by legal representation~imputation.

First understand that verses 12-14 is speaking spiritual death not physical death. And now we did not request such death nor seek such death, but we did earn death because we all sinned (v.12). In the very next chapter, verse 23, Paul proclaims that specifically when he says, "the wages of sin is death". Wages are what we earn by what we have done, wages are what we are owed. And yes sin is imputed. It is imputed to those who have disobeyed God's law, whether one law or the whole law. It is an assigned condition to our own personal spirits and it is a legal rendering. But there is no sense in which it is a re[resentation; it is all too real; it is actual; it is God's determination of the condition of the sinner.

We do desire life, seek life, and cannot earn life: and it shall be given by representation ~imputation.

Some do; some don't. It turns out most don't.

Jim, 15:22 Adam and Jesus Christ have important roles as representative for their respective people.
All that are in Adam, by natural generation, shall suffer the consequence of his sin ~ "death".

NO! NO! NO! Again you get that wrong. We suffer the consequence of our sin. It is our wages for our sin, nobody else's. It is what we are owed.

As far as 1 Corinthians 15:22 is concerned, the death spoken of there is the physical, not spiritual death that all will experience and the life there is the resurrection to life [in whatever form that will be] that all will experience. All will die and all will be resurrected. Even the saved, the elect will die to be resurrected again at the end of the age when Christ returns.

All that are in Christ, by sovereign election, shall receive the benefits of His obedience ~"life".

All that are in Christ, through believing in God, in Jesus Christ, in the Gospel, shall be chosen to receive life. But that is not the subject under discussion in 15:22.

The two representatives do not represent the same peoples, for only some are in Jesus Christ. The death and life considered here are the death of the body (v.21) and the resurrection of the body.

Yes, and neither have anything do to with whether one is lost or saved.

The “as … even so” construction is very powerful in making the representation comparable.

Again Jim, Paul gives a full comparison of the two representatives (Romans 5:12-19).

Yes, indeed. And in doing so, Paul by the Holy Spirit did not change the meaning of the word "all" in verse 18 or the word "many" in verse 19. The construction is very powerful in making the representation comparable. Both present the condition in which man enters the world. What Paul is saying in verses 18 and 19 is whatever might have occurred as a result of Adam's disobedience was negated as a result of Christ's obedience. What happened to all men because of Adam when they came into the world was negated because of Jesus when they came into the world. That was anticipated in verses. 15-17, because it says there that the effect of Jesus Christ was much more than the effect of Adam

Jim, to whom is the word of God written and given to? Not to the inhabitants of North Sentinel Island in the Bay of Bengal!

It is written all to whom the preacher can reach:

Rom 10:12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; 13 for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED." 14 How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher?

Red, you know full well if you took the Gospel to the inhabitants of North Sentinel Island in the Bay of Bengal, there would be some who would heed the call.

Acts 2:39​

“For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.”

And who shall the Lord our God call? Why those who love God:

Rom 8:28 And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.

cts 8:31
“And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him.”

God chooses to whom the word of God will go to, and it is never to every single person of every nation, never has been, never will be.

No, God has not made that choice. He has placed that choice in us (Rom 10:11-17).

God's sovereignty is a hated truth, even more so in our day~but so be it, it still is the truth of the word of God and we shall proclaimed on the housetop.

God is a hated truth, even more so in our day. But setting that aside, it is unfortunate that too many misconstrue the real attribute of God's sovereignty and among those are those who hold to any part of TULIP.

Then you are not hearing the word of God~Jesus is building his church (called out ones) on "THIS ROCK"... which is: by divine revelation of opening their hearts to the truth, business as usual Jim. You are not hearing what the Spirit is saying, which doesn't surprise me.

The divine revelation which is available to you. I and the rest of the world today was set down once and for all by the apostles and prophets who wrote the original text of what we now have as the bible. It is up to us to take that divine revelation to the world. Jesus is not building His church by divine revelation to individuals.

The simple truth is that if what you believe about opening hearts were true, there would be no reason whatsoever for the written word of God. It would simply be infused into the minds by direct divine revelation the individuals.

So wrong! Sinners are regenerated, so that they can hear, see and believe, which apart from the Spirit no man could come, impossible.

So wrong! Sinners who hear the word about Christ and believe are regenerated. We are justified by faith, our faith, by what we have heard [been taught or read] about Christ.

Justification, regeneration and initial sanctification all are the work of God and all at the same instant in time in the life of repentant believer when he is baptized in the name of the Lord, Jesus Christ. It is at that time when his sins are forgiven, he is given the gift, the indwelling, of Holy Spirit.

John 6:44
“No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.”

John 6:45
"It is written in the Prophets, 'And they will all be taught by God.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me--"

 

[Jim]

Yes Spiritual. See man by nature is dead spiritually, he cant hear, see, understand nothing spiritually. He is a corpse spiritually

And according to you, God made him that way and there is nothing he can do to change that. That is the God you preach and teach. It insults God.