What is the Gospel
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That's a great point. I think it is true, that because of my decades of discussions with Red and other promoters of Calvinism, I have become more in tune with the actual scriptures, and if asked, can better present an alternative understanding that considers the teaching of the entire bible, as opposed to the practice of avoiding scriptures that can't be used to promote TULIP philosophy.
I forget sometimes that maybe the arguments are for my edification too, and we do study the philosophy in my study group, by taking Red's presentations of TULIP and comparing it to the actual Word of God when Every Word is considered. So it has been beneficial to the whole body as well.
What a wonderful mindset. I am also not one to go door to door handing out pamphlets. And the Forum does help keep me centered in Scriptures, and the topics discussed here has been a wonderful study exercise for the flock that has received me.
Plus I learn a lot about myself, and the issues in me that I need to work on.
Thanks Jim, great advice.
@Jim
Jim, we did not request death, seek death, or earn death by our selves: it was given by legal representation~imputation.
We do desire life, seek life, and cannot earn life: and it shall be given by representation ~imputation.
All that are in Christ, by sovereign election, shall receive the benefits of His obedience ~"life".
The two representatives do not represent the same peoples, for only some are in Jesus Christ. The death and life considered here are the death of the body (v.21) and the resurrection of the body.
The “as … even so” construction is very powerful in making the representation comparable.
Again Jim, Paul gives a full comparison of the two representatives (Romans 5:12-19).
God chooses to whom the word of God will go to, and it is never to every single person of every nation, never has been, never will be.
Sorry for the reference, not sure how I typed Romans 5:1-10 when I meant to type Romans 5:12-19, which you should have understood that, after all, I have went word for word through those verses with you over years, but maybe you have forgotten, which does come with years, and we both are getting up.
Not even close Jim, but, it seems more and more to me, you just do not care, but you are more interesting in protecting your work gospel.
Jim, death came on men by one’s sin ~ Adam ~ which was counted against us (Romans 5;12-14). The resurrection to life comes by one ~ Christ ~ which will surely come to all His elect, chosen in him.
Jim, we did not request death, seek death, or earn death by our selves: it was given by legal representation~imputation.
We do desire life, seek life, and cannot earn life: and it shall be given by representation ~imputation.
Jim, 15:22 Adam and Jesus Christ have important roles as representative for their respective people.
All that are in Adam, by natural generation, shall suffer the consequence of his sin ~ "death".All that are in Christ, by sovereign election, shall receive the benefits of His obedience ~"life".
The two representatives do not represent the same peoples, for only some are in Jesus Christ. The death and life considered here are the death of the body (v.21) and the resurrection of the body.
The “as … even so” construction is very powerful in making the representation comparable.
Again Jim, Paul gives a full comparison of the two representatives (Romans 5:12-19).
Jim, to whom is the word of God written and given to? Not to the inhabitants of North Sentinel Island in the Bay of Bengal!
Acts 2:39
“For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.”Acts 8:31
“And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him.”God chooses to whom the word of God will go to, and it is never to every single person of every nation, never has been, never will be.
God's sovereignty is a hated truth, even more so in our day~but so be it, it still is the truth of the word of God and we shall proclaimed on the housetop.
Then you are not hearing the word of God~Jesus is building his church (called out ones) on "THIS ROCK"... which is: by divine revelation of opening their hearts to the truth, business as usual Jim. You are not hearing what the Spirit is saying, which doesn't surprise me.
So wrong! Sinners are regenerated, so that they can hear, see and believe, which apart from the Spirit no man could come, impossible.
John 6:44
“No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.”
brightfame52
Active Member
Correct, Adam represented the elect and the serpent seed, but Christ just the elect
@Studyman @Jim
Please read this to see the distinction between Calvinism, Arminianism, and the truth.
letgodbetrue.com
Before there was ever a John Calvin, men of God taught these great truths, even Luther who was a little older than Calvin though contemporary with him for a few years, even though they never met in person. I posted ML Bondage of Will above in a few post back. Did you read it, no, I'm sure you did not.
Too bad I can not be there to present the truth and let them address me directly!
"by taking Red's presentations of TULIP"~Then you are not presenting what I actually teach if you are using the tulip, beside would not be best to let the person speak for himself, and get it straight from man himself?
I've made it very clear over the years, that I do not promote Calvinism per se, neither I'm I ashamed of those that do, because I do believe that lovers of the truth are among those who hold to some form of Calvinism ~ that's not to say, that all Armenians are not of God, that's not for me to say, I'm not God and cannot see the hearts of men.
Please read this to see the distinction between Calvinism, Arminianism, and the truth.
Calvinism, Arminianism, and the Truth
letgodbetrue.com
This is a two way street you do know that, correct?
No system under heaven better considers all scriptures than those men who have taught unconditional election of pure grace, no system! I'm sorry you men have me to deal with, if you had men of God of old, you would have been expose as false prophets in a much greater way than I could have ever do so. I know, I have read behind most all of them over the last fifty plus years, many times over.
Before there was ever a John Calvin, men of God taught these great truths, even Luther who was a little older than Calvin though contemporary with him for a few years, even though they never met in person. I posted ML Bondage of Will above in a few post back. Did you read it, no, I'm sure you did not.
Too bad I can not be there to present the truth and let them address me directly!
"by taking Red's presentations of TULIP"~Then you are not presenting what I actually teach if you are using the tulip, beside would not be best to let the person speak for himself, and get it straight from man himself?
Whatever you think they are, they are activities that you say God won't let most people do. That is not the God of the Bible. That is the false God of Augustine.
brightfame52
Active Member
Yes I did know what you really were referring too, but I have so many times showed why you are completely wrong in your interpretations of that particular passage.
I care deeply about that passage because it more than most other passages on the subject explain specifically why the doctrine of Original Sin is false and that means even more why the doctrine of Total Depravity is not only false but an insult to God if not an outright blaspheme.
NO! NO! NO! Verses 12-14 do not say that. It does not say death came on men by one's sin~Adam. What it says is that death entered the world through Adam's sin. It says that death entered all men because all men sinned. If you cannot the distinction between what you said and what Paul said, then you are blind to the truth of God's word. Moreover, nothing in verses 12-14 even speaks to the resurrection.
First understand that verses 12-14 is speaking spiritual death not physical death. And now we did not request such death nor seek such death, but we did earn death because we all sinned (v.12). In the very next chapter, verse 23, Paul proclaims that specifically when he says, "the wages of sin is death". Wages are what we earn by what we have done, wages are what we are owed. And yes sin is imputed. It is imputed to those who have disobeyed God's law, whether one law or the whole law. It is an assigned condition to our own personal spirits and it is a legal rendering. But there is no sense in which it is a re[resentation; it is all too real; it is actual; it is God's determination of the condition of the sinner.
Some do; some don't. It turns out most don't.
NO! NO! NO! Again you get that wrong. We suffer the consequence of our sin. It is our wages for our sin, nobody else's. It is what we are owed.
As far as 1 Corinthians 15:22 is concerned, the death spoken of there is the physical, not spiritual death that all will experience and the life there is the resurrection to life [in whatever form that will be] that all will experience. All will die and all will be resurrected. Even the saved, the elect will die to be resurrected again at the end of the age when Christ returns.
All that are in Christ, through believing in God, in Jesus Christ, in the Gospel, shall be chosen to receive life. But that is not the subject under discussion in 15:22.
Yes, and neither have anything do to with whether one is lost or saved.
Yes, indeed. And in doing so, Paul by the Holy Spirit did not change the meaning of the word "all" in verse 18 or the word "many" in verse 19. The construction is very powerful in making the representation comparable. Both present the condition in which man enters the world. What Paul is saying in verses 18 and 19 is whatever might have occurred as a result of Adam's disobedience was negated as a result of Christ's obedience. What happened to all men because of Adam when they came into the world was negated because of Jesus when they came into the world. That was anticipated in verses. 15-17, because it says there that the effect of Jesus Christ was much more than the effect of Adam
It is written all to whom the preacher can reach:
Rom 10:12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; 13 for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED." 14 How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher?
Red, you know full well if you took the Gospel to the inhabitants of North Sentinel Island in the Bay of Bengal, there would be some who would heed the call.
And who shall the Lord our God call? Why those who love God:
Rom 8:28 And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.
No, God has not made that choice. He has placed that choice in us (Rom 10:11-17).
God is a hated truth, even more so in our day. But setting that aside, it is unfortunate that too many misconstrue the real attribute of God's sovereignty and among those are those who hold to any part of TULIP.
The divine revelation which is available to you. I and the rest of the world today was set down once and for all by the apostles and prophets who wrote the original text of what we now have as the bible. It is up to us to take that divine revelation to the world. Jesus is not building His church by divine revelation to individuals.
The simple truth is that if what you believe about opening hearts were true, there would be no reason whatsoever for the written word of God. It would simply be infused into the minds by direct divine revelation the individuals.
So wrong! Sinners who hear the word about Christ and believe are regenerated. We are justified by faith, our faith, by what we have heard [been taught or read] about Christ.
Justification, regeneration and initial sanctification all are the work of God and all at the same instant in time in the life of repentant believer when he is baptized in the name of the Lord, Jesus Christ. It is at that time when his sins are forgiven, he is given the gift, the indwelling, of Holy Spirit.
John 6:45
"It is written in the Prophets, 'And they will all be taught by God.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me--"
And according to you, God made him that way and there is nothing he can do to change that. That is the God you preach and teach. It insults God.
Jim, I said that more so base on these very clear words:
1st Corinthians 15:21
“For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.”1st Corinthians 15:22
“For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.”Jim it is so clearly written: "by man came death"~ The point to be proved is, that Christ is the first-fruits, and that it was not merely as an individual that he was raised up from the dead. He proves it from contraries, because death is not from nature, but from man’s sin. As, therefore, Adam did not die for himself alone, but for us all, it follows, that Christ in like manner, did not rise for himself alone; for he came, that he might restore everything that had been ruined in Adam, for God's elect.
We must observe, however, the force of the argument; for he does not contend by similitude, or by example, but has recourse to opposite causes "for the purpose of proving opposite effects". The cause of death is Adam, and we die in him: hence Christ, whose office it is to restore to us what we lost in Adam, is the cause of life to us; and his resurrection is the ground-work and pledge of ours. And as the former was the beginning of death, so the latter is of life. In the fifth chapter of the Romans (Romans 5) he follows out the same comparison; nut in a much more detail; but there is this difference, that in that passage he reasons respecting a spiritual life and death, while he treats here of the resurrection of the body, which is the fruit of spiritual life.
Yes, yes, yes, through Adam's one sin of disobedience. Just as the elect are made the righteousness of God through Christ's obedience.
Romans 5:19
“For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.”The many of which each one represented, which would be all in each. By natural generation, all of humanity were in Adam as their posterity head; by election of grace the chosen generation of God people were chosen in Christ from the foundation of the world, by grace alone before any had done any good or evil.
1st Peter 2:9
“But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:”Romans 9:11
“(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth
”Deuteronomy 7:6-8
“For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth. The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people: But because the LORD loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the LORD brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.”Jim, it is speaking of both, for if we are not saved from death, which Christ came to do for God's elect, than the second death would be our final destination after the judgement of the great day of God Almighty, which would be the second death, pershing in the lake of fire.
Jim none do by nature!
Romans 3:11
“There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.”I did not write those words, the Spirit of God moved holy men of old to write them, and I and you can testify that these are true words, if we are honest with what we see and know even from those we love the most~and even in our own hearts.
Jim again it is BOTH, but mainly our respected heads. Jim why do infants die? And why did God command Israel of old to kill them when they destroyed their nation if they were not guilty of sin in Adam? Do I need to give references? No, you know them, you just do not want to accept them, for it does not align with the god you have allow to be created in your heart by false religion/preachers.
Jim it said that men die because of one man SIN! NO sin, no death since death would have no power of those who have not sinned! You quoted the verse above ~one more time:
Romans 6:23
“For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.”No sin, no death Jim. Death has passed on all men, even infants since all sinned in Adam. God in mercy and his wisdom choose Adam to represent us who had NO sin nature as we all have from our natural birth.
I need to get ready to leave, I WILL come back and finish. I have just a little to finish, or I could just take ALL of Romans 5:12-19 and do a verse by verse of those wonderful scriptures one more time for the benefit of any younger believer who may read this discourse between us.
brightfame52
Active Member
The death spoken of in Romans 5:12 is spiritual death. The death spoken of in 1 Corinthians 15:21 is physical death. They are not the same thing at all. You have interjected the meaning of one into the other and in doing so you will obviously come to the wrong conclusions.
In fact, neither physical death nor spiritual death is the result of Adam's sin. Physical death is an integral feature of this physical creation. There is no such thing as physical immortality. Adam died physically only indirectly due to sin. He died physically because God ejected him from the Garden of Eden where he would have had access to the tree of life which would have extended his physical life indefinitely (Gen 3:22). The obvious meaning of 1 Corinthians 15:21-22 is that in being a descendant of Adam, i.e., being human, we die physically. The death and resurrection in 1 Corinthians 15:21-21 are universal; all men will die and all men will be resurrected.
Oh my friend, in trying to draw the comparison you have become so confused. No one is going to be made righteous in the resurrection at the end of the age when Christ returns. Whoever is to be made righteous will have been made righteous before they died. Once they have died, their fate relative to eternity is set.
The confusion continues. There is no reference in Romans 5:19 to "the elect". You stuck that in there to make it agree with your false doctrine. Your confusion is increased by your choice of translation. once again, the KJV has it wrong. It leaves out a very important word.
Romans 5:19
(ESV) For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous.
(KJV) For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
The meaning is clear; the many made righteous are precisely the same many made sinners. That is supported by the previous verse, verse 18.
Romans 5:18
(ESV) Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men.
(KJV) Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
Romans 5:18-19 are both speaking of the whole of humanity.
The message here is the condition of every single person when they are born. The true message of that passage in Romans is that the obedience of Christ in sacrificing Himself on the cross set aside whatever might have been for every person coming into the world. Every man, woman and child comes into this world as a righteous being. They become unrighteous only when they sin.
If only you would read what it says and not interject your false religion into Gods word, you would begin to understand.
The chosen in Deuteronomy 7:6-8 is the entire nation of Isreal including both the lost and the saved. They all were the chosen for service. That is the same in Romans 9:11. The chosen in 1 Peter 2:9 is only the saints of Christ's church. They were the chosen for salvation.1st Peter 2:9
“But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:”
Romans 9:11
“(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth
Deuteronomy 7:6-8
“For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth. The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people: But because the LORD loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the LORD brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.”
There were many, in fact most, of the elect, the chosen, of Deuteronomy 7:6-8 that will suffer the second death. The nation Israel was not chosen for salvation; there were some, the remnant, in the nation that were saved and they became a part of the elect for salvation.
Those of the nation Israel certainly came by nature. They were born physically into that nation.
And the confusion only continues. Why do infants die? If and when infants die, they die for many reasons. Why they can die is because they are physical beings and physical beings are susceptible to dying. Sooner or later all humans die.
Heb 9:27 And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment,
The wages of sin is NOT physical death.
Gen 2:17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die."
In the day that they ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil they did not die physically; they died spiritually. In sinning, they died spiritually. In being physical humans, they died physically many, many years later having nothing to do with their disobedience to God. In the day that you sinned, the day that you disobeyed a law of God, you died spiritually. You will, assuming Jesus does not come sooner, die physically because all physical entities, all biological things, eventually die
But not dead in Adam's sin. Man is dead in his own sin.
Ezra
Active Member
The Gospel is received through both faith and repentance. My thinking was this: it would be easier to get people to put their faith in Jesus than to actually repent. It is no wonder that so many people are unable to walk in true freedom. They had simply added Jesus to an already congested life of brokenness and idolatry.
brightfame52
Active Member
Yeah but it still establishes headship, that's the point. Jesus is a head for a people God put in Him as His seed and God put in Adam a seed he was head of. Now the people Adam represented in Gods arrangement, when Adam sinned, they whom He represented sinned, and as death spiritual was a consequence of Adams sin, they also he represented partook of death spiritual as well. This truth is part of Paul's Gospel
brightfame52
Active Member
Just where in the scriptures do you read "headship".
God gives each person a spirit at birth. That spirit is alive and well until the person sins.
brightfame52
Active Member
