What is Messianic Judaism?

[koberstein]

The law was added because Israel abandoned God at Sinai. God even offered to kill everyone of them and create a nation form the union of Moses and his Gentile bride.....
The law was given to control Israel because Moses rejected God's offer. That is why it was referenced as the "law of Moses" by Messiah Himself. (Just one of the reasons. There are others)

Let me know if you would like to continue to discuss.

Just FYI.. The Chinese have been eat pork for many generations. How long do the Chinese live?

Not very long in China. The law was NOT added. It was given.
Along with God, it is the figure of Moses (Moshe) who dominates the Torah.
Acting at God's behest, it is he that leads the Jews out of slavery, unleashes the
"Ten Plagues against Egypt", guides the freed slaves for 40 years in the wilderness,
carries down the law from Mount Sinai, and prepares the Jews to enter the land of Canaan.
Without Moses, there would be little apart from laws to write about in the last four
books of the Torah.
In the Sinai Desert, Moses climbs Mount Sinai and comes down with the Ten Commandments,
only to discover the Israelites engaged in an orgy and worshipping a Golden Calf. The episode
is paradigmatic: Only at the very moment God or Moses is doing something for them are they loyal
believers. The instant God's or Moses's presence is not manifest, the children of Israel revert to
amoral, immoral and sometimes idolatrous behavior. Like a true parent, Moses rages at the Jews
when they sin, but he nevers turns against them---even when God does. To God's wrathful declaration
on one occasion that He will blot out the Jews and make of Moses a new nation, he answers,
"Then blot me out too" (Exodus 32:32)
You need to get the Jewish history and your facts correct.
Shalom

 

[praise_yeshua]

Not very long in China. The law was NOT added. It was given.
Along with God, it is the figure of Moses (Moshe) who dominates the Torah.
Acting at God's behest, it is he that leads the Jews out of slavery, unleashes the
"Ten Plagues against Egypt", guides the freed slaves for 40 years in the wilderness,
carries down the law from Mount Sinai, and prepares the Jews to enter the land of Canaan.
Without Moses, there would be little apart from laws to write about in the last four
books of the Torah.
In the Sinai Desert, Moses climbs Mount Sinai and comes down with the Ten Commandments,
only to discover the Israelites engaged in an orgy and worshipping a Golden Calf. The episode
is paradigmatic: Only at the very moment God or Moses is doing something for them are they loyal
believers. The instant God's or Moses's presence is not manifest, the children of Israel revert to
amoral, immoral and sometimes idolatrous behavior. Like a true parent, Moses rages at the Jews
when they sin, but he nevers turns against them---even when God does. To God's wrathful declaration
on one occasion that He will blot out the Jews and make of Moses a new nation, he answers,
"Then blot me out too" (Exodus 32:32)
You need to get the Jewish history and your facts correct.
Shalom

Do you mind if I prefer what the Torah actually says?

Exo 32:10 Now therefore let me alone, that my wrath may wax hot against them, and that I may consume them: and I will make of thee a great nation.

Did you read this in your version? He can you possibly say what you just said after reading this in the Torah?

Did you read your Rabbi Paul?

Gal 3:19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

Who should I believe? You or your teacher Paul?

 

[praise_yeshua]

Not very long in China. The law was NOT added. It was given.
Along with God, it is the figure of Moses (Moshe) who dominates the Torah.
Acting at God's behest, it is he that leads the Jews out of slavery, unleashes the
"Ten Plagues against Egypt", guides the freed slaves for 40 years in the wilderness,
carries down the law from Mount Sinai, and prepares the Jews to enter the land of Canaan.
Without Moses, there would be little apart from laws to write about in the last four
books of the Torah.
In the Sinai Desert, Moses climbs Mount Sinai and comes down with the Ten Commandments,
only to discover the Israelites engaged in an orgy and worshipping a Golden Calf. The episode
is paradigmatic: Only at the very moment God or Moses is doing something for them are they loyal
believers. The instant God's or Moses's presence is not manifest, the children of Israel revert to
amoral, immoral and sometimes idolatrous behavior. Like a true parent, Moses rages at the Jews
when they sin, but he nevers turns against them---even when God does. To God's wrathful declaration
on one occasion that He will blot out the Jews and make of Moses a new nation, he answers,
"Then blot me out too" (Exodus 32:32)
You need to get the Jewish history and your facts correct.
Shalom

The average lifespan of a Chinese person that eats pork is longer than most any Orthodox Jew. Study it yourself. Bacon is wonderful. I had some today. Cook it till it is crisp and crunchy. Make sure to get fatty pork bacon. You will love it. I tell my Muslim friends the same thing.

Do you have children? Do you practice stoning your children when they curse you?

You prefer a law that condemns you over Messiah that sets you free even though you are guilty yourself.

 

[Soyeong]

Yeah. How many times have you said this to me? Lawyers pretend they make perfect arguments all the time.

I can disregard what you say as long as you keep ignoring that what you say is contradictory.

Just keep ignoring what I say. If you really want to have a discussion, begin by telling everyone why Abraham didn't receive the law you treasure. Go for it.

Both Abraham and Moses spread the Gospel of the Kingdom by turning people from their wickedness and teaching people to walk in God's way in obedience to His law (Genesis 18:19, Exodus 33:13).

 

[koberstein]

The average lifespan of a Chinese person that eats pork is longer than most any Orthodox Jew. Study it yourself. Bacon is wonderful. I had some today. Cook it till it is crisp and crunchy. Make sure to get fatty pork bacon. You will love it. I tell my Muslim friends the same thing.

Do you have children? Do you practice stoning your children when they curse you?

You prefer a law that condemns you over Messiah that sets you free even though you are guilty yourself.

So when are you moving to China? Can I help you pack?
Pork has nothing to do with life span. It is honoring your body which is the temple of the Holy Spirit. You heard the saying "you are what you eat". When I was a little boy on our farm in PA I was always asked to take a wheelbarrow of rotten food down to the pig farm below us to feed their pigs. Swine are the garbage collectors of the earth. Swine will eat anything.You might think about that when you eat your next bacon strip.
We are on a Mediterranean diet. We eat organic fresh fruits, vegetables and lean cuts of meat like chicken, lamb, and beef.
Eating kosher and organic is not cheap.
But I think the health benefits out weigh the costs. I would not trade my $28 a pound filet mignon for your artery stiffening bacon any day.
I do not have children. My wife does from.a previous marriage.
I do prefer the law which are basically living instructions from Adonai. You violate His instructions at your own peril. Messiah has set me free.

 

[praise_yeshua]

So when are you moving to China? Can I help you pack?

You still have me. No plans to move. Just making the point that the argument being made is bogus.

Pork has nothing to do with life span. It is honoring your body which is the temple of the Holy Spirit. You heard the saying "you are what you eat".

Jesus very clearly stated that what you eat doesn't defile you. We just poop it out into the toilet.

Mat 15:17 Do not ye yet understand, that whatsoever entereth in at the mouth goeth into the belly, and is cast out into the draught?
Mat 15:18 But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.

When I was a little boy on our farm in PA I was always asked to take a wheelbarrow of rotten food down to the pig farm below us to feed their pigs. Swine are the garbage collectors of the earth. Swine will eat anything.You might think about that when you eat your next bacon strip.

If you were starving, you would eat anything. Man has repeatedly proven that he will even eat his own if necessary to survive. Think for yourself. Stop listen to these people that are leading you about.

We are on a Mediterranean diet. We eat organic fresh fruits, vegetables and lean cuts of meat like chicken, lamb, and beef.
Eating kosher and organic is not cheap.
But I think the health benefits out weigh the costs. I would not trade my $28 a pound filet mignon for your artery stiffening bacon any day.
I do not have children. My wife does from.a previous marriage.
I do prefer the law which are basically living instructions from Adonai. You violate His instructions at your own peril. Messiah has set me free.

The law isn't living instructions. It is a means to show forth the inabilities of man. You keep the laws you think you can keep while breaking many many others.

Do you wear your tassels and the ribbon of blue in your garments?

Don't answer, it really doesn't matter. Just making the point. I think I'll start a thread on why some prefer the law. There is a very tangible reason. A meaningful reason.....

I appreciate your response. I'm not your enemy. We can take this journey together to discovery. I honestly believe you wouldn't even be here if you didn't question your beliefs.

Most people look for confirmation. I look to find where I'm wrong. I've been on this search for a very long time. It is why I know your culture.

 

[praise_yeshua]

I would not trade my $28 a pound filet mignon for your artery stiffening bacon any day.

You shouldn't believe everything you read. Generations before us lived well past this "processed food" generation. "Processing" has removed the bulk in most all foods. Pork is much better for you than all these processed food we have today. China is still largely a rural community based culture. Chinese people usually go to the city to work throughout the year and then quit their jobs and go home.

 

[koberstein]

You still have me. No plans to move. Just making the point that the argument being made is bogus.



Jesus very clearly that what you eat doesn't defile you. We just poop it out into the toilet.

Mat 15:17 Do not ye yet understand, that whatsoever entereth in at the mouth goeth into the belly, and is cast out into the draught?
Mat 15:18 But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.



If you were starving, you would eat anything. Man has repeatedly proven that he will even eat his own if necessary to survive. Think for yourself. Stop listen to these people that are leading you about.



The law isn't living instructions. It is a means to show forth the inabilities of man. You keep the laws you think you can keep while breaking many many others.

Do you wear your tassels and the ribbon of blue in your garments?

Don't answer, it really doesn't matter. Just making the point. I think I'll start a thread on why some prefer the law. There is a very tangible reason. A meaningful reason.....

I appreciate your response. I'm not your enemy. We can take this journey together to discovery. I honestly believe you wouldn't even be here if you didn't question your beliefs.

Most people look for confirmation. I look to find where I'm wrong. I've been on this search for a very long time. It is why I know your culture.

The law is instructions for living. Read the 10 commandments. Our legal system is based on those laws. It's a guide on how to live with yourself and others. I'm not your enemy either. If I was building a new nation those 10 commandments would be the place to start.
I don't have a culture. Yeshua has taken some of those laws to a higher standard.
If you lustfully look upon a woman you have already committed adultery in your heart.

 

[praise_yeshua]

The law is instructions for living. Read the 10 commandments. Our legal system is based on those laws.

Nonsense. We don't kill our children when they curse us. That is why I asked you if you had children. I was check to see if you stoned them dead because they cursed you.

It's a guide on how to live with yourself and others. I'm not your enemy either. If I was building a new nation those 10 commandments would be the place to start.
I don't have a culture. Yeshua has taken some of those laws to a higher standard.
If you lustfully look upon a woman you have already committed adultery in your heart.

Mat 15:4 For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.

You need to read those commandments again.

Besides. The "law of Moses" is much more than this.

Num 15:38 “Speak to the people of Israel, and tell them to make tassels on the corners of their garments throughout their generations, and to put a cord of blue on the tassel of each corner.

 

[koberstein]

Nonsense. We don't kill our children when they curse us. That is why I asked you if you had children. I was check to see if you stoned them dead because they cursed you.



Mat 15:4 For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.

You need to read those commandments again.

Besides. The "law of Moses" is much more than this.

Num 15:38 “Speak to the people of Israel, and tell them to make tassels on the corners of their garments throughout their generations, and to put a cord of blue on the tassel of each corner.

You need to read the full passage and not cherry pick verses to try and prove a point.
Mattityahu 15:1-9
Then some P'rushim and Torah-teachers from Yerushalayim came to Yeshua and asked him,
"Why is that your talmidim break the Tradition of the Elders? They don't do n'tilat-yadayim before
they eat!" He answered, Indeed, why do they break the command of God by your tradition?
For God said, 'Honor your father and mother', and 'Anyone who curses his father or mother must
be put to death'. But you say, 'If anyone says to his father and mother, "I have promised to give to
God that I might have used to help you." then he is rid of his duty to honor his father and mother'.
Thus by your tradition you make null and void the word of God! You Hypocrites! Yesha'yahu was
right when he prophesied about you.
These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far away from me.
Their worship of me is useless, because they teach man-made rules as if they were doctrines.

Kibud Av Va'em
Sh'mot 20:12 Honor your father and mother, so that you may live long in the land which
Adonai your God is giving you.
Sh'mot 20:17 Whoever curses his father and mother must be put to death.
D'varim 5:16 Honor your father and mother, as Adonai your God ordered you to do, so that
you will live long and have things go well with you in the land Adonai your God is giving you.
Vayikra 20:9 A person who curses his father or mother must be put to death; having cursed
his father and his mother, his blood is on him.
Vayikra 19:3 Every one of you is to revere his father and mother, and you are to keep my
Shabbats; I am Adonai your God.

Punishments are threatened against those who violate the Second or Third commandment,
but the Fifth Commandment promises a reward: "that you may long endure on the land
which the Lord your God is giving you"
A society in which children do not honor their parents will rapidly lose the means through
which the society's culture, religion, and ethics can be transmitted, and thus will soon
disintegrate.

Other biblical laws emphasize the need for children not to show their parents disrespect;
for example, the Torah mandates that it is a capital offense to strike a parent or curse them
in the name of God. However, I can't find any records or documentation that such a
punishment was ever carried out.

Tzitzit---The Law of Fringes
At one time, it was common in the United States for a person who was fearful of forgetting
an errand to tie a string around his finger. Throughout the day, whenever he saw the string,
he would be reminded of the errand. Tzitzit, the ritual fringes which the Bible ordains must
be worn at the corners of one's garment, are sort of a ethical string-around-the finger.
The major goal of these fringes is to curb "lustful" urges. Orthodox Jews understand the
law of Tzitzit as mandating men to wear a fringed garment throughout the day; they don a
four cornered garment (arba kanfot) , composed of a square piece of cloth with fringes at
each corner and a hole in the middle that allows it to be slipped over the head. The garment
is worn under the shirt, although many Orthodox Jews let the fringes hang outside the shirt
so that they are visible. As for the biblical provision that the garment contain "a cord of blue"
at each corner, this law was apparently was observed for centuries. The blue dye came from
a type of snail that eventually became extinct (perhaps a surge in the Jewish population was
responsible for this). The Rabbis ruled that the obligation to have a blue thread was therefore
suspended. In modern times, one Hasidic dynasty claimed to have found the supposedly
extinct snail that generated the required dye, and reinstated the blue thread.
Why a blue thread? The Torah doesn't say, although Bible scholar Jacob Milgrom conjectures
that the blue dye was expensive and associated with royalty ( hence "royal blue").

Shalom Blessings in Yeshua

 

[praise_yeshua]

You need to read the full passage and not cherry pick verses to try and prove a point.

I didn't "cherry pick". I highlighted so you would focus upon what it says. There is no context in your response that changes what I said. There is no need to post it all. I know how to read.

Sh'mot 20:17 Whoever curses his father and mother must be put to death.

Punishments are threatened against those who violate the Second or Third commandment,
but the Fifth Commandment promises a reward: "that you may long endure on the land
which the Lord your God is giving you"
A society in which children do not honor their parents will rapidly lose the means through
which the society's culture, religion, and ethics can be transmitted, and thus will soon
disintegrate.

This is not your response. Quote the source you got this from. Invite them to this conversation. I will deal with them.

Other biblical laws emphasize the need for children not to show their parents disrespect;
for example, the Torah mandates that it is a capital offense to strike a parent or curse them
in the name of God. However, I can't find any records or documentation that such a
punishment was ever carried out.

Okay. ALL OF YOU ignored the demand of the law to do as you please........

Typical "double talk". You claim to keep the law and then dismiss it as if it never happened.

Mat 15:5 But ye say, Whosoever shall say to his father or his mother, It is a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me;

The Rabbis ruled that the obligation to have a blue thread was therefore
suspended.

Again. Over and over again. You prefer your "rabbi" of choice suspending what the law demanded. It was clear.... THROUGHOUT ALL GENERATIONS.

Num 15:38 “Speak to the people of Israel, and tell them to make tassels on the corners of their garments throughout their generations, and to put a cord of blue on the tassel of each corner.

In fact, Jesus wore them Himself.

Luke 8:44 She came up behind him and touched the fringe of his garment, and immediately her discharge of blood ceased.

You really are missing out on focusing upon Christ instead of your rabbis.....

This commandment was given that you might always acknowledge the bruising of Messiah for you.[/QUOTE]

 

[koberstein]

I didn't "cherry pick". I highlighted so you would focus upon what it says. There is no context in your response that changes what I said. There is no need to post it all. I know how to read.

Sh'mot 20:17 Whoever curses his father and mother must be put to death.



This is not your response. Quote the source you got this from. Invite them to this conversation. I will deal with them.



Okay. ALL OF YOU ignored the demand of the law to do as you please........

Typical "double talk". You claim to keep the law and then dismiss it as if it never happened.

Mat 15:5 But ye say, Whosoever shall say to his father or his mother, It is a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me;



Again. Over and over again. You prefer your "rabbi" of choice suspending what the law demanded. It was clear.... THROUGHOUT ALL GENERATIONS.

Num 15:38 “Speak to the people of Israel, and tell them to make tassels on the corners of their garments throughout their generations, and to put a cord of blue on the tassel of each corner.

In fact, Jesus wore them Himself.

Luke 8:44 She came up behind him and touched the fringe of his garment, and immediately her discharge of blood ceased.

You really are missing out on focusing upon Christ instead of your rabbis.....

This commandment was given that you might always acknowledge the bruising of Messiah for you.

[/QUOTE]
Why don't you violate one of the ten commands and see how that works out for you.
The Judeo Christian laws are the basic structure for our society.
In this effort, precursors of the National Conference of Christians and Jews created teams consisting of a priest, a rabbi, and a minister, to run programs across the country, and fashion a more pluralistic America, no longer defined as a Christian land, but "one nurtured by three ennobling traditions: Protestantism, Catholicism and Judaism. ... The phrase 'Judeo-Christian' entered the contemporary lexicon as the standard liberal term for the idea that Western values rest on a religious consensus that included Jews."[

 

[koberstein]

I didn't "cherry pick". I highlighted so you would focus upon what it says. There is no context in your response that changes what I said. There is no need to post it all. I know how to read.

Sh'mot 20:17 Whoever curses his father and mother must be put to death.



This is not your response. Quote the source you got this from. Invite them to this conversation. I will deal with them.



Okay. ALL OF YOU ignored the demand of the law to do as you please........

Typical "double talk". You claim to keep the law and then dismiss it as if it never happened.

Mat 15:5 But ye say, Whosoever shall say to his father or his mother, It is a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me;



Again. Over and over again. You prefer your "rabbi" of choice suspending what the law demanded. It was clear.... THROUGHOUT ALL GENERATIONS.

Num 15:38 “Speak to the people of Israel, and tell them to make tassels on the corners of their garments throughout their generations, and to put a cord of blue on the tassel of each corner.

In fact, Jesus wore them Himself.

Luke 8:44 She came up behind him and touched the fringe of his garment, and immediately her discharge of blood ceased.

You really are missing out on focusing upon Christ instead of your rabbis.....

This commandment was given that you might always acknowledge the bruising of Messiah for you.

[/QUOTE]
I'm really not missing out on anything, but you maybe.
Most legalists cherry pick verses to support some bogus theory or claim.
You need to seek out your pastor and see if he can help with your legalism
and the correct biblical view of scripture.

 

[praise_yeshua]

I'm really not missing out on anything, but you maybe.
Most legalists cherry pick verses to support some bogus theory or claim.
You need to seek out your pastor and see if he can help with your legalism
and the correct biblical view of scripture.
[/QUOTE]

My "pastors" are the apostles, prophets and Messiah.

If you want to invite your Rabbi to this conversation. Please do.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Why don't you violate one of the ten commands and see how that works out for you.
The Judeo Christian laws are the basic structure for our society.
In this effort, precursors of the National Conference of Christians and Jews created teams consisting of a priest, a rabbi, and a minister, to run programs across the country, and fashion a more pluralistic America, no longer defined as a Christian land, but "one nurtured by three ennobling traditions: Protestantism, Catholicism and Judaism. ... The phrase 'Judeo-Christian' entered the contemporary lexicon as the standard liberal term for the idea that Western values rest on a religious consensus that included Jews."[
[/QUOTE]

Sounds familiar......

Mar 10:19 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother.
Mar 10:20 And he answered and said unto him, Master, all these have I observed from my youth.
Mar 10:21 Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.
Mar 10:22 And he was sad at that saying, and went away grieved: for he had great possessions.

 

[koberstein]

I'm really not missing out on anything, but you maybe.
Most legalists cherry pick verses to support some bogus theory or claim.
You need to seek out your pastor and see if he can help with your legalism
and the correct biblical view of scripture.

My "pastors" are the apostles, prophets and Messiah.

If you want to invite your Rabbi to this conversation. Please do.
[/QUOTE]
So.you are a self proclaimed know it all.
Wow you must be more intelligent than all the rabbis and sages in the history of Judaism. Are you on some kind of sick mission to straightened people out with your way of thinking? The Bible is a self interpretative book. You are not going to so call straighten me out to your legalistic way of thinking. You are basically unteachable and lack credibility. My Rabbi has more important things to do. Besides, I see no reason for him to be part of this discussion.

 

[praise_yeshua]

So.you are a self proclaimed know it all

No. That is your false characterization. I am a student of my teachers.

Wow you must be more intelligent than all the rabbis and sages in the history of Judaism. Are you on some kind of sick mission to straightened people out with your way of thinking? The Bible is a self interpretative book. You are not going to so call straighten me out to your legalistic way of thinking. You are basically unteachable and lack credibility. My Rabbi has more important things to do. Besides, I see no reason for him to be part of this discussion.

Okay. I thought I would "cut out the middleman" and talk to the source of your beliefs. I bet he will not agree with you on many things you're saying.

It really is amazing how you claim the Bible is a "self interpretative book" and then appeal to your preferred rabbis for understanding. Does this qualify for being "double minded" or "inconsistent"?

 

[koberstein]

No. That is your false characterization. I am a student of my teachers.



Okay. I thought I would "cut out the middleman" and talk to the source of your beliefs. I bet he will not agree with you on many things you're saying.

It really is amazing how you claim the Bible is a "self interpretative book" and then appeal to your preferred rabbis for understanding. Does this qualify for being "double minded" or "inconsistent"?

Nope. The Bible is a self interpretative book.
If you don't believe me look how many denominations and sub denominations there are. Everybody can't be right. At least Judaism has about 4 denominations and that's 4 to many.

 

[koberstein]

Nope. The Bible is a self interpretative book.
If you don't believe me look how many denominations and sub denominations there are. Everybody can't be right. At least Judaism has about 4 denominations and that's 4 to many.

I do appeal to the Messianic rabbis for understanding and clarity. I do have Rabbinical books that I read. I also have Gentile protestant books I read also. Study to yourself approved is a tenet in the B'rit Hadashah. Something you might like to try.

 

[koberstein]

No. That is your false characterization. I am a student of my teachers.



Okay. I thought I would "cut out the middleman" and talk to the source of your beliefs. I bet he will not agree with you on many things you're saying.

It really is amazing how you claim the Bible is a "self interpretative book" and then appeal to your preferred rabbis for understanding. Does this qualify for being "double minded" or "inconsistent"?

Do you go to church? If so what denomination? I'm just curious.