Doug Brents
Well-known member
But they were cast out from His presence. Before the Fall, God walked with them daily in the Garden. But after the Fall, they were cut off from His presence, and His presence is Life.
What is death? Is it the absence of life?
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Would it not be the opposite of Life?
civic
Well-known member
No they were cast out of the garden where the tree of life was located. God is Omnipresent.
Doug Brents
Well-known member
God is not far from us (Acts 17:27), but He is does not dwell in us if we are not His (Rom 8:9). Everyone is constantly "in His presence" because as you say He is omnipresent, but we are not in fellowship with Him, and thus we are dead, until we are reunited with Him in Christ. And it is the fellowship with Him that brings life. If we are cut off from Him, we wither and are cast into the Fire, but if we are grafted into His root, then we receive nourishment and life (Rom 11:22).
civic
Well-known member
Where does is say adam was not in fellowship with God after he sinned ?
Nowhere does it say adam was dead immediately when he sinned. sin brought forth death as in adam all die- we are mortal because of sin. It took close to a 1000 years to die then and now its under a 100.
Doug Brents
Well-known member
So you are saying that God lied?
Gen 2:16-17 - "The Lord God commanded the man, saying, “From any tree of the garden you may freely eat; 17 but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for on the day that you eat from it you will certainly die.”"
When God said "on the day" did He really mean 365,000 days later? No, He meant THAT VERY DAY!! Adam died (spiritually) immediately upon touching the Tree of Knowledge. But he died physically nearly 1000 years later.
What lie did Satan tell Eve?
Do we believe in the state of eternal life for the elect? Then Eve could not die could she? Her body would die but SHE WOULD NOT! Apparently both the serpent and Eve knew she was an elect! IF "Thou shalt not die!" is NOT a lie, then our understanding of the whole story must shift a little. Her not dying was the truth but it was a truth used to deceive her into bodily death by enticing her to disobedience. Safe (no consequences) disobedience was the lie, not her being liable to death.
WE know it was not a lie but did they know themselves? Why not? Because Eve was a newly created innocent, a tabula rasa knowing nothing at all? IF so, then why did YHWH not discuss with her the dangers the serpent presented? Why did HE even allow the serpent access to her? HIS reaction to the serpent could be construed as a very unloving thing to do with HIS newly created innocent elect member of HIS Church, HIS Bride ! since HE obviously knew she would obviously be deceived and defiled by the serpent's evil intent.
So I ask, "Why would GOD treat Eve so? Why permit her to go through this experience with the serpent and be deceived and defiled? Side questions would be: Why did the Church ignore this pov and doddle along as if Satan was lying about her not dying? It is like even though they knew she was elect and predestined to be HIS Bride they just had to call the serpent's words, "Thou shalt not die!" a lie because she used them to break the law, like any sinner would.
This reminds me of 1 Timothy 1:9 We also know that the law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful...etc, etc. Why were Adam and Eve given a command if they were righteous in their innocence when the law is only given to sinners to convict them of sin? Romans 3:20 Therefore no one will be justified in His sight by works of the Law. For the Law merely brings awareness of / convicts of sin. ?? Awareness is 1922 epígnōsis "knowledge gained through first-hand relationship".
When this verse is applied to Adam and Eve It would seem to say that they were already sinful even though they had not eaten yet and the command was given to bring them to the awareness, the knowledge gained through first-hand experience, that they were sinners. The reference to their not being ashamed is weird if they have nothing to be ashamed of, ie they were just created in innocence BUT if they were indeed sinful but thought that they were righteous ( as most sinners think) then having their eyes opened to their sinfulness by breaking the command not to eat, they realized their sinfulness and became ashamed.
Whole naked is a metaphor used in the Bible for sinfulness, it is notable that the word chosen to refer to their nakedness is the same word used to describe the evil of the serpent's cunning, ie, they are homonyms, the same word with two meanings. The vowel marks that differentiate the word naked from the word cunning were added by the Masoretes ç600AD. Thus verse could be as easily read: Genesis 2:25 Adam and his wife were both cunning in an evil way, but they felt no shame...except for the eiesgesis of forcing the idea of their being newly created onto the words.
So, if we limit ourselves to just these hints (ignoring the others) that Adam and Evil were already sinful in the garden before eating, we can see an obvious reason for GOD allowing the evil serpent access to HIS not so innocent daughter ie, to open her eyes to her sinfulness so she could become ashamed, repent and come to Christ. Neither is it too far a leap to suggest her sin before eating had to do with the her willingness to accept the serpent as a mentor or even a pastor and to follow his logic into disobedience, opening her eyes to his total lack of caring for her that to him she was only a pawn in his game against GOD.
After letting him trick her with the truth out of Paradise, you can bet that she never gave him another opportunity to defile her again and was quite willing to see him damned and condemned out of her life. This is the story of all the elect, the lesson we are to learn writ large in the first story of the Bible; the serpent is a liar, we are sinners and we will never return to Paradise until we come out from among the reprobate ready to see them banished to the outer darkness forever.
Grace ambassador
Well-known member
Agree - here is my study: "What Saith All The Scriptures?" on This Important Doctrine:
man/woman/child = a tripartite being?:
"And the very God of Peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your
Whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming
of our Lord Jesus Christ." (1 Thessalonians 5:23; Comfort 2 Corinthians 1:3-4)
A Divider/Discerner of the [ internal ] two :
"For The Word of God Is Quick, and Powerful, and Sharper Than any two-edged sword,
Piercing Even To The Dividing Asunder Of soul And spirit, and of the joints and marrow,
And Is A Discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart." (Hebrews 4:12)
Death?:
"...the body without the spirit is dead..." (Jam 2:26)
1) When the body is dead, it becomes ignorant and hence
"knows not anything" (Ecc 9:5), "returning to dust" (Ecc 12:7):
2) "the spirit returns (from the body) back to God Who Gave it" (Ecc 12:7)
What about "the soul"? Some think it disappears into nothingness/annihilation?:
What Saith The Scriptures?:
3) "the soul departs" (Gen 35:16-19):
a) Jesus Clearly Taught unbelievers' souls go to the "place of torment, having vision, speech,
feeling, and remembering everything" (Luke 16:19-31) "across the great fixed gulf":
b) Believers (previously) went to "paradise (in the earth) = Abraham's bosom" - Confirmed:
b1) Jesus, Just Before His Death, Clearly Said [ to the repentant thief ] "Today
thou Shalt Be With Me In Paradise!" (Luke 23:43) - Confirmed by:
b2) "I AM The God of Abraham, and The God of Isaac, and The God of Jacob?
God Is not The God of the dead, but of the living." (Matthew 22:32) Amen:
OT living souls departed and "gathered Unto their own people!":
"And thou shalt go [ living soul that departs ] to thy fathers in peace;
thou shalt be buried [dead body] in a good old age." (Genesis 15:15)
"Then Abraham gave up the ghost, and died in a good old age, an old man,
and full of years; and was gathered to his people. And his sons Isaac and
Ishmael buried him in the cave of Machpelah, in the field of Ephron the son
of Zohar the Hittite, which is before Mamre;" (Genesis 25:8-9)
"And Isaac gave up the ghost, and died, and was gathered unto his people,
being old and full of days: and his sons Esau and Jacob buried him."
(Genesis 35:29)
Jacob (v 1):
"And he charged them, and said unto them, I am to be gathered Unto
my people [living soul]: bury me with my fathers [ dead body ] in the cave
that is in the field of Ephron the Hittite," (Genesis 49:29)
Now critics will argue that the 'dead body' "buried with fathers" = "gathered
with their people," and 'the soul is extinguished into non-existence,' Correct?:
However, again: "What Saith The Scriptures?":
"And when Jacob had made an end of commanding his sons, he gathered up his
feet into the bed, and yielded up the ghost, and was gathered unto his people."
(Genesis 49:33):
Thus, Immediately his "living soul departed to paradise in Abraham's bosom!" And,
his 'dead body' was buried Much Later (Genesis 50:1-13), Correct?
+ Further Confirmed By:
b3) The prophet Samuel's [ dead body ] was buried Nowhere Near his father Abraham's in
"the cave of Machpelah," Correct? So that Cannot be the critic's theory "gathered to his
fathers/people," right?
"And Samuel died; and all the Israelites were gathered together, and
lamented him, and buried him in his house at Ramah." (1 Samuel 25:1)
Further Confirmed by King Saul "disturbing 'Samuel's rest,' getting the
witch at Endor to call up Samuel from the dead" (1 Samuel 28:7-20)
Again, there is proposed the theory that this is a "demon [ one of the gods ]
'ascending out of the earth'" that "appeared to the witch and Saul"?
The witch "identified him as Samuel." Did she lie?
Now, we do admit it is possible demons might know this, from the past?:
"Because thou obeyedst not the voice of the LORD, nor executedst his fierce
wrath upon Amalek, therefore hath the LORD done this thing unto thee this day."
(1 Samuel 28:18)
But, Exactly how did God's Spirit Give demons the "gift of prophecy," to predict the future?:
"Moreover the LORD will also deliver Israel with thee into the hand of the Philistines:
and to morrow shalt thou and thy sons be with me: the LORD also shall deliver the
host of Israel into the hand of the Philistines." (1 Samuel 28:19)
Thus falls the theory that demons were in Paradise, So "after Samuel went back to
resting In Paradise," the next day, Saul and Jonathon were killed in battle, [ And their
'souls' ] Departed to be "gathered Unto their people," with Samuel, "As Prophesied,"
Correct?
b4) In the future, according to God's Revelation to John, he saw:
"And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the [ living ] souls of them
that were slain [ dead bodies ] for The Word of God, and for the testimony which they held"
(Revelation 6:9) "...cried out with a loud voice...Given white robes..." (vs 10-11)
How is that 'nothingness/annihilation [ no comfort ],' when these are "living and conscious," Correct?
And, In Addition To All of This Truth, Scriptures Get Even Better! = Very Comforting!!:
c) ...(But now), for believers, Under God's Grace!:
In Christ's Revelation Of The Mystery To Paul, He Teaches:
"For to me to live is Christ, and to die Is Gain!" (Philippians 1:21)
+"For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to Depart { soul },
And To Be With CHRIST; which Is Far Better!" (Philippians 1:23)
+"Now He that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, Who
also hath given unto us The Earnest of The Spirit. Therefore we are
always Confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body,
we are absent from The LORD: ( For we walk by faith, not by sight: )
We are Confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body,
and to be Present With The LORD!" (2 Corinthians 5:5-8) Where?:
"...Paradise in The Third Heaven!..." (2Co 12:1-4) = Very Comforting Indeed,
Correct?:
Further Confirmed in Resurrection:
"But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning
them [ souls ] which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which
have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so
them [ souls ] also which sleep in Jesus Will God Bring With Him."
(1Th 4:13
God does Not Bring 'nothingness' but, living souls With Him! Amen.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Bears repeating! Correct?:
"I AM The God of Abraham, and The God of Isaac, and The God of Jacob?
God Is not The God of the dead, but of the living." (Matthew 22:32) Amen.
-------------------------------------- =========
LORD Jesus, thanks So Much for All Of Your Comforting Words.
------------------------------------------------------------
Praise HIS Precious and Wonderful Name!
Amen.
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e v e
Well-known member
Complete
Well-known member
Hello @dizerner,
Of course the Lord Jesus Christ was not dishonest, neither did He seek to mislead. The illustration the Lord gave in Luke 16 concerning the rich man and a beggar which He named Lazarus, was aimed at his audience, which were Pharisees, who had been deriding Him (v.14): and He countered that by exposing the hypocrisy of their teaching, both in relation to, 'the law and the prophets' (v.v.16-18) compared with the teaching of (Deut.22:22 & 24:1), and in relation to their teaching concerning, 'the state of the dead', which denied the testimony of the Old Testament Scriptures. (Psa. 6:5; Psa.30:9; Psa.31:17; Psa.88:11; Psa. 115:17; Psa.146:4; Eccles.9:6,10; Eccles. 12:7; Isa. 38:17-19 & Ch).
* They believed for example that the dead could communicate with the living. Which is not confirmed by Scripture: unless you want to cite the incident with the Witch of Endor, which requires an examination in it's own right. The Pharisees had also brought with them from their exile in Babylon, the concept of 'Abraham's bosom' (v.22). Which finds no confirmation in the Scriptures. They made the Word of God of. 'none effect', by their traditions (Matt.15:3 & 6).
* The name, Lazarus, is used by our Lord to emphasise the point and intent of this story, which is found in verse 30-31:-
And he said unto him,
If they hear not Moses and the prophets,
neither will they be persuaded,
though one rose from the dead.'
(Luke 16:31)
* Lazarus, the brother of Martha and Mary, a friend of our Lord's, died and was raised from the dead by the Lord, which was widely known and wondered at by those that heard of it (John 11). That name alone should have gravitated the minds of the Pharisees to the point that the Lord was making, and the teaching which accompanied it.
Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris
Complete
Well-known member
Hello @Azriel,
I agree with your first sentence, but must, respectfully, say that your second sentence is a misuse of the verse it is indirectly quoting, please look at it within it's context:-
'For we know
.. that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved,
.... we have a building of God,
...... an house not made with hands,
........ eternal in the heavens.
For in this we groan,
.. earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
.... If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
...... For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened:
........ not for that we would be unclothed,
.......... but clothed upon,
............ that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
Now He that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God,
.. Who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.
.... Therefore we are always confident,
...... knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body,
........ we are absent from the Lord: (For we walk by faith, not by sight
.......... We are confident, I say, and willing rather
............ to be absent from the bod
.............. and to be present with the Lord.
................ Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent,
.................. we may be accepted of Him.
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ;
that every one may receive the things done in his body,
according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.'
(2Cor. 5:1-10)
* Receipt of the believer's, 'house from heaven,' takes place at Resurrection. For only the resurrection power of God can quicken and raise us to life again. This takes place, at, or immediately prior to the return of Christ. Paul did not want to be unclothed in death, which is what would happen if he should die prior to the Lord's return, No, he wanted to be clothed upon by his, 'house from heaven'. Only then would it be possible to be both absent from the body and present with the Lord. This however, required the return of Christ (which at that time was deemed imminent) and the resurrection which would accompany it. For only then will mortality put on immortality, and death be swallowed up by life. (1 Corinthians 15:54).
Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris
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Complete
Well-known member
Hello @civic,
With respect, I must ask for Scriptural confirmation of your words,
* I question also your words,
* How could Adam die 'spiritually', when he was not spiritual but natural, of the earth, 'earthy':-
' There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
And so it is written,
The first man Adam was made a living soul;
.. the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
.... Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural;
...... and afterward that which is spiritual.
The first man is of the earth, earthy:
.. the second man is the Lord from heaven.
.... As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy:
...... and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.'
(1Cor. 15:44b-48)
* I have to question another, unfortunately:-
* I agree that the death of the believer in the Lord Jesus Christ is spoken of as being, 'asleep in Christ' (1 Cor.15:8): but we are not told that death ushers us into the presence of Christ. The spirit (i.e.,breath of life) of all men go back to God (Who gave it) at the death of the body: but there can be no life apart from resurrection. The resurrection will take place on a day of God's choosing, until then the believer is reckoned as being 'asleep in Christ'. The unbelieving dead have no such assurance.
* Your use of 2 Corinthians 5:8 and Philippians 1:23 is not correct, for both verses have been taken out of their context, The context reveals the truth they are intended to convey. I have spoken about both in my reply to you in the thread concerning the soul.
Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris
Azriel
Well-known member
Thank you for being so Polite. I'm sure all of us on this form disagree about one thing or another. But that's okay because it encourages dialogue. And I do believe we can learn from one another. I've taken time to study out being "Absent from the body and present with the Lord" This morning and had myself a good time in The Word. And I'm actually more convinced than I was before. Why is that?
Well there was the thief on the cross. What did Jesus tell him?
Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.” Luke 23:34
8 [Yes] we have confident and hopeful courage and are pleased rather to be away from home out of the body and be at home with the Lord.
9 Therefore, whether we are at home [on earth away from Him] or away from home [and with Him], we are constantly ambitious and strive earnestly to be pleasing to Him.
This takes place before the judgment seat of Christ takes place.
The New Testament speaks of a very well-defined system; after the rapture of the church, God will reward His people. One of the first events that will take place in heaven after the Rapture is the judgment seat of Christ, or the bema, where all believers will stand before the Lord.
To be “absent” from one’s body simply means to die because, at death, the spirit is separated from the body and moves into its eternal abode—either heaven with the Lord or hell, separated from God for eternity.
Complete
Well-known member
Hello @Azriel,
I am glad that you have enjoyed your study this morning on this subject.
You refer to the thief on the cross, and I understand why;* but the understanding of that exchange between the Lord Jesus Christ and the thief has been complicated by a wrongly placed comma!! In Luke 23:43, the Lord said, '... Verily I say unto thee today, shalt thou be with me in paradise.' The Lord Himself did not go to Paradise Himself on that day, did He? For He was in the grave, and had not ascended to the Father when He spoke to Mary in the garden following that, so, no, (John 20:17).
* The words 'this day', are used several times throughout Scripture, for emphasis. (see Deut. 4:26). On this occasion it emphasises the solemnity of the occasion.
* At death the body goes back to the dust from whence it came, and the spirit goes back to God who gave it. That applies to all mankind, whether believing or unbelieving. Yes, the spirit (i.e., the breath of life) departs the body, and returns to God. Only at the resurrection, in that time of God's choosing, is the body quickened into life, and is raised to either life eternal, or Judgment. Not at death. Until the resurrection, the believer is spoken of as being, 'asleep in Christ', because of the hope of life in Christ Jesus that he holds. The unbeliever has no such hope. and is referred to as being dead even while he lives: the judgement will determine the fate of all such, and also of those who have never heard (Romans 2).
Thank you, Azriel.
In Christ Jesus
Chris
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Behold
Well-known member
Hey Chris.
"death" in the secular sense, in the "worldly concept" is... Your heart stops beating.
In the Spiritual Sense.... In the CHRISTIAN sense of the word...."death" is the door that leads the Born again, into God's very presence.
Also.... there is the "death of Adam", and that is not the death of His Spirit,, but its the separation of Adam's spirit from God's. Holy Spirit.
A.) "God is A Spirit"..
JESUS, who is the 2nd Adam, came to die on the Cross, so that by this Sacrifice, our sin that is separating our SPIRIT from God, can be restored as "born again"... = restored Spiritual Union with God..
When this happens, we are become a CHRISTian.
If this never happens to you.....if you are never born again "spiritually"........then that "death" that is the UNBELIEVER's spiritual separation from God, is never resolved by Christ on the CROSS...., so it become ETERNAL Separation from GOD, after your body dies, and that is referred to in the NT as the 2nd Death.
Bob Carabbio
Well-known member
Separation. Spiritual death = seperation from God, Physical death = seperation from the physical host.
Complete
Well-known member
'So then faith cometh by hearing,
and hearing by the word of God.'
(Rom 10:17)
Hello @Behold,
Thank you for your post.
I realise that what you describe is the belief held by many believers, but I do not believe it to be the testimony of Scripture, otherwise I would not have started this thread. It is what I too believed when as a young person I heard the gospel of God concerning His Son, and believed what I heard to the saving of my soul, by God's grace.. In my youth I believed what I was told by the ministers who occupied the pulpit. Only as I began to study God's Word for myself did I have to adjust my understanding in the light of what was actually written.
According to God's reckoning ,in spirit I have died with Christ, been buried, quickened and raised with Him, and ascended, in spirit, to God's right hand,, where I now walk in newness of life before the Father (Romans 5:12-8:39). looking for His appearing in glory, when I believe that I too will appear with Him there, not only in spirit, but in a resurrection Body like unto His Own (Col. 3:4).
If my flesh shall die before that glorious day arrives, I believe that my body shall be buried, my spirit (or breath of life) having already gone to God Who gave it: and by God's reckoning, I shall be, 'asleep in Christ', unaware of the passage of time, until the resurrection takes place, and I am clothed with that wonderful resurrection body prepared for me, and ascend to appear with Him in glory, along with all those who love His appearing (2 Timothy 4:8),to ever be with the Lord.
That is my belief: which God will probably have to refine, as my knowledge of Him and His truth grows.
Praise His Holy Name!
Within the love of Christ our Saviour
our Lord, and Head,
Chris
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Behold
Well-known member
Jesus said He is the Way to the Father.
So, unless someone else came from heaven, Virgin born, to die for our sin, then He is telling the truth. in John 14:6.
And As He Himself said He is the TRUTH, then i believe that, and so do you., as far as i can tell.
Well, all the born again are "seated in heavenly places, in Christ".
All the born again are become...."As Jesus is...so are the born again, in this World".
The born again are "complete in Him", but we need that "new Body" that is designed to contain our born again Spirit.
Its on the way.
Paul said...to be dead is to be : "absent from the Body, and present with the Lord"
Some verses say "we want to be present with the Lord"".
But, its not a necessary point of division to believe that there is an instant arrival of the born again spirit into Heaven upon death of the body...., or if there is a delay., regarding the born again.
This is theology and its not critical.
What i can tell you, is that there is NO DELAY, regarding dying never born again as as Christ rejector and instantly being in Hell.
That's a fact.
No Delay.
Thousands who went there today, yesterday, and tomorrow, ALL wish to GOD that there was a delay.
And now, all of them believe in Jesus, and their faith is not counted as righteousness, as you can't be born again in Hell.
Tho they wish to GOD they could be....
You stated, as far as i can tell, that you have placed your faith in the Son of God, and if that is so, then God has placed His Justification, through Christ, as your "imputed righteousness" as your "Gift of Salvation".
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