Trying to understand Dispensationalism

Christ's 7 Messages include references to His FUTURE COMING. That is all the true Bible student needs to confirm that those Messages are meant for ALL Christian Churches all the way up to the day of Christ's future return. And understanding this is very, very easy. This is NOT about Jewish synagogues, and it's silly to even think it is. It is about the Christian Church in Christ Jesus.

Now, for brethren in Christ that have eyes to see, and ears to hear:

At the end of Revelation 1, Lord Jesus said the 7 candlesticks which John saw in Heaven represent the seven Churches.

In Revelation 11, within the 6th Trumpet - 2nd Woe timing, which points to the time of the "great tribulation", God's two witnesses in Jerusalem will be given to prophesy against the beast for 1260 days, and 2 candlesticks are mentioned along with them. That is pointing to TWO CHURCHES that will prophesy against the beast at the end of this world with them, during the time of 'great tribulation'. It does not mean two Churches per a specific geographic location; it's about Christ elect Churches that will not be deceived, everywhere in the world.

Per Christ's 7 Messages to the 7 Churches, there were only TWO Churches that He had no rebuke for. The other 5 Churches had problems which He rebuked them for, and even told one of them that if they did not repent He would remove their candlestick in Heaven. So there's the blueprint for the end concerning Christ's 7 Messages for the 7 Churches. The original going out of those 7 Messages was for historical purpose, but their greater purpose is for ALL of Christ's Churches, all the way to the end, including about those 2 Churches that will make a stand with God's two witnesses in Jerusalem at the end.
I had this conversation on another forum and I think it is generic enough to fit here and it might help you.

The resurrection of whom?

Matt 27:50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
54 Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God.

The (first) resurrection is like the harvest of the fields. Jesus is the firstfruits of the resurrection (harvest). The Jews had been prefiguring this truth for about several hundred years before the event by observing the feast of firstfruits annually without understanding it. It was observed just after the feast of unleavened bread, which pictures the undecaying dead body of Jesus in the tomb because there was no sin in it. The feast of unleavened bread was observed immediately after the feast of Passover when the Lamb was killed. The offering was a sheaf of wheat, gathered before the main harvest, and waved toward heaven symbolizing the firstfruits that actually happened according to the prophesy of the spring festival. I posted the fulfillment of it in Matt 27:50-54. This festival prefigured the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ and was the end to which it pointed. Now, there are two more steps in the harvest, the main harvest and the gleanings. The gathering of the church is the main harvest;

Eph 1:9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: 10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, (the definition of the church which is his body) both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

The gleanings are mentioned in Re 20. Three in one and one in three, the first resurrection. The trinitarian signature on God's doctrine of the resurrection of the just. The firstfruits are before the church, the main harvest is the church, and the gleanings are after the church (Re 19). One should be able to figure out what Jesus means by "the last day" by understanding this equation in it's context.

Matt 13:36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.
37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world (aion = age); and the reapers are the angels.
40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world (age = aion).
41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire (the great tribulation): there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

What a wonderful truth from our God!
 
So I admonish the Bible student to be very, very careful with men's doctrines that try to slice and dice Bible history into their little categorization schedules so they think it gives them better understanding, when it does not, but often does just the opposite.
Excellent advice, thank you, Precious friend. 18 months of prayerful/Careful 'Rightly
Divided' study, produced:

Great Grace Departure!

Amen.
 
I had this conversation on another forum and I think it is generic enough to fit here and it might help you.

The resurrection of whom?

Matt 27:50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
54 Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God.

The (first) resurrection is like the harvest of the fields. Jesus is the firstfruits of the resurrection (harvest). The Jews had been prefiguring this truth for about several hundred years before the event by observing the feast of firstfruits annually without understanding it. It was observed just after the feast of unleavened bread, which pictures the undecaying dead body of Jesus in the tomb because there was no sin in it. The feast of unleavened bread was observed immediately after the feast of Passover when the Lamb was killed. The offering was a sheaf of wheat, gathered before the main harvest, and waved toward heaven symbolizing the firstfruits that actually happened according to the prophesy of the spring festival. I posted the fulfillment of it in Matt 27:50-54. This festival prefigured the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ and was the end to which it pointed. Now, there are two more steps in the harvest, the main harvest and the gleanings. The gathering of the church is the main harvest;

Eph 1:9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: 10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, (the definition of the church which is his body) both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

The gleanings are mentioned in Re 20. Three in one and one in three, the first resurrection. The trinitarian signature on God's doctrine of the resurrection of the just. The firstfruits are before the church, the main harvest is the church, and the gleanings are after the church (Re 19). One should be able to figure out what Jesus means by "the last day" by understanding this equation in it's context.

Matt 13:36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.
37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world (aion = age); and the reapers are the angels.
40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world (age = aion).
41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire (the great tribulation): there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

What a wonderful truth from our God!

You apparently posted in the wrong thread. The Topic here is about understanding Dispensationalism. And the subject of my post related to man's system of Dispensationalism, which John Nelson Darby actually created in the 19th century.

What Apostle Paul said about the 'mystery' was simply USED by John Darby to help create his Dispensationalist theories, which mostly stayed with a progressive documenting of Bible history, until one gets to the idea of his false pre-trib rapture theory he first taught in 1830s Britain, and the separation of Israel and the Church.

Eph 3:2-7
2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to youward:
3 How that by revelation He made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto His holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ by the gospel:
7 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of His power.
KJV


Apostle Paul showed by the above that the Jews did not yet know about God's Plan of Salvation going to the Gentiles also. Jesus specifically chose Paul to go to the Gentiles with The Gospel, so Paul was 'a' special envoy regarding that, but not the only one, because Peter and other of the Apostles also preached The Gospel to Gentiles.

A study in the Book of Isaiah, which means 'Yah is Salvation', reveals the Gentiles were included in God's Plan of Salvation all along. Thus the "mystery" Paul spoke of was only in the fact that the Jews didn't yet realize it until Christ's 1st coming, death and resurrection, and then sending the Apostles also to the Gentiles.

Isa 11:10
10 And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.
KJV

Isa 42:6-7
6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;
7 To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.
KJV

Isa 60:3
3 And the Gentiles shall come to thy light, and kings to the brightness of thy rising.
KJV


None of that was reason for men to create Dispensationalist doctrines. The reason Darby created his theories of Dispensationalism in the 19th century was to try and drum up support for the false pre-trib rapture theory, which his ideas about the separation of Israel and the Church after Christ's return is designed to prop up the pre-trib rapture theory also.
 
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I am sorry to those on the Pre-trib Rapture theory that I sound so opposed to that doctrine, but I could never agree with it since Lord Jesus Himself made it plain in Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 that the time of His future return and gathering of His saints is after... the future great tribulation He warned us about.

I know the Pre-trib Rapture Theory first preached in 1830's Great Britain by the Edward Irving church and John Nelson Darby became popular, and was furthered by Cyrus Scofield and his Scofield study Bible, and by other societies, but what our Lord Jesus Christ said is paramount, and out-weighs all others.

And I will tell those that care what Lord Jesus says in His Word about another matter related. When He said in His Word of Truth about something being a certain way, like He did with the time of His coming to gather His Church after... the tribulation, if we refuse to heed what He said, then The Holy Spirit will begin to cloud one's Biblical understanding in other matters.

God's Word was given and written via The Holy Spirit, and He cannot be fooled or tricked; He knows our hearts and our belief, and who we put our trust in.
 
I am sorry to those on the Pre-trib Rapture theory that I sound so opposed to that doctrine, but I could never agree with it since Lord Jesus Himself made it plain in Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 that the time of His future return and gathering of His saints is after... the future great tribulation He warned us about.

I know the Pre-trib Rapture Theory first preached in 1830's Great Britain by the Edward Irving church and John Nelson Darby became popular, and was furthered by Cyrus Scofield and his Scofield study Bible, and by other societies, but what our Lord Jesus Christ said is paramount, and out-weighs all others.

And I will tell those that care what Lord Jesus says in His Word about another matter related. When He said in His Word of Truth about something being a certain way, like He did with the time of His coming to gather His Church after... the tribulation, if we refuse to heed what He said, then The Holy Spirit will begin to cloud one's Biblical understanding in other matters.

God's Word was given and written via The Holy Spirit, and He cannot be fooled or tricked; He knows our hearts and our belief, and who we put our trust in.
I have no problem with those who disagree with me Davy its not a cross I choose to die on myself. I don't think any view on eschatology is a salvific issue.
 
I have no problem with those who disagree with me Davy its not a cross I choose to die on myself. I don't think any view on eschatology is a salvific issue.
I don't want to argue about it, but I disagree that it is not a salvation issue. The pre-trib rapture theory is what will lead many brethren to bow to the wrong Christ.
 
Subject Heading:- 'Trying to Understand Dispensationalism'.

'Study to shew thyself approved unto God,
a workman that needeth not to be ashamed,
rightly dividing the word of truth.'

(2 Timothy 2:15)

♥️
Amen!
I don't want to argue about it, but I disagree that it is not a salvation issue. The pre-trib rapture theory is what will lead many brethren to bow to the wrong Christ.
Ok, no argument needed, but how, exactly, do we, who believe In The Lord Jesus Christ,
His Death, Burial, And Resurrection
(1Co 15:3-4), By Grace Through faith (Eph 2:8-9),
For God's Eternal Life (Salvation Issue!):


"bow to the wrong christ" by believing in God's Great Grace Departure!

[ in preparation for our account At Heavenly Judgment Issue (1Co 3:8-15) ]?

Please, precious friend, do elaborate?

Amen.
 
You apparently posted in the wrong thread. The Topic here is about understanding Dispensationalism. And the subject of my post related to man's system of Dispensationalism, which John Nelson Darby actually created in the 19th century.

What Apostle Paul said about the 'mystery' was simply USED by John Darby to help create his Dispensationalist theories, which mostly stayed with a progressive documenting of Bible history, until one gets to the idea of his false pre-trib rapture theory he first taught in 1830s Britain, and the separation of Israel and the Church.

Eph 3:2-7
2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to youward:
3 How that by revelation He made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto His holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ by the gospel:
7 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of His power.
KJV


Apostle Paul showed by the above that the Jews did not yet know about God's Plan of Salvation going to the Gentiles also. Jesus specifically chose Paul to go to the Gentiles with The Gospel, so Paul was 'a' special envoy regarding that, but not the only one, because Peter and other of the Apostles also preached The Gospel to Gentiles.

A study in the Book of Isaiah, which means 'Yah is Salvation', reveals the Gentiles were included in God's Plan of Salvation all along. Thus the "mystery" Paul spoke of was only in the fact that the Jews didn't yet realize it until Christ's 1st coming, death and resurrection, and then sending the Apostles also to the Gentiles.

Isa 11:10
10 And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.
KJV

Isa 42:6-7
6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;
7 To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.
KJV

Isa 60:3
3 And the Gentiles shall come to thy light, and kings to the brightness of thy rising.
KJV


None of that was reason for men to create Dispensationalist doctrines. The reason Darby created his theories of Dispensationalism in the 19th century was to try and drum up support for the false pre-trib rapture theory, which his ideas about the separation of Israel and the Church after Christ's return is designed to prop up the pre-trib rapture theory also.
The problem with your theology is that it is not based on the words in the text but by isolated words by which you build your theology system while ignoring context and themes and history and prophesy, and yea, some words. You quoted 2 passages in your comments, one from the NT and one from the OT. You would lead us to believe one is connected to the other, which of course they are not. Paul is writing Ephesians in AD 60, a full 20 years after God had opened up the door of faith to gentiles as recorded in Acts 10. Acts 10 took place in AD 40, ten years after the beginning of the church of Jesus Christ in Acts 2.

As anyone can see by reading Isaiah, he is giving information about some future times when God and the gentiles are reconciled and those things he writes about will take place. There is no mystery there. Anyone can read it What Paul is writing about in Ephesians is a mystery. He was writing about something that was hidden in the mind of God, something not formerly revealed. Take a look at these verses.

Eph 1:9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
Eph 3:3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
Eph 3:4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
Eph 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world (aion = age = time period) hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
Eph 5:32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.
Eph 6:19 And for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I may open my mouth boldly, to make known the mystery of the gospel,

By reading these verses one can reason that the purpose of God in this age was hidden until revealed through the apostles and prophets. The purpose of God being revealed is the purpose that no one could have learned any other way except God revealed it to the mind. What is it? Can we know? Have we been told? The answer is an emphatic YES! Yes, we can because we are told in a single verse in Ephesians.

Eph 3:6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body (as the Jews), and partakers of his promise (the indwelling Holy Spirit) in Christ (in his body the church) by the gospel:

The rules had to change for this to happen. Something had to be taken away and something would need to be given for this purpose of God to take place.

Here is what is taken away;

Eph 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye (gentiles) who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain (TWO) one new man, so making peace;
16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off (that would be gentiles), and to them that were nigh (that would be Jews).
18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

Here is what is given;

Eph 1:12 That we (Jews) should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14 Which is the earnest (guarantee) of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Isaiah's prophesies will take place in the future, but these things are taking place now.

No one will understand these words of God lest the Spirit reveal them to your mind. Human wisdom that selects certain words for a theme can never know the deep things that God wants to give us. One must believe every word and change none of them. God's thinking comes through his own chosen words.

1Co 2:16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

S, I am not defending dispensationlism from the standpoint of systematic theology but by believing the words and honoring context and history and prophesy and progressive revelation. I am studying it because the word dispensation is in the text and because I know that God has pivot points in his dealing with men to attain his desired purposes through the ages.

How about you?
 
Amen!

Ok, no argument needed, but how, exactly, do we, who believe In The Lord Jesus Christ,
His Death, Burial, And Resurrection
(1Co 15:3-4), By Grace Through faith (Eph 2:8-9),
For God's Eternal Life (Salvation Issue!):


"bow to the wrong christ" by believing in God's Great Grace Departure!

[ in preparation for our account At Heavenly Judgment Issue (1Co 3:8-15) ]?

Please, precious friend, do elaborate?

Amen.
Well, just that above statement you made has a problem that is against God's Word about our gathering to Jesus Christ, "... by believing in God's Great Grace Departure!"

That idea, "Grace Departure", especially that word "Departure", is often used by those who preach a Pre-tribulation Rapture Theory, which a pre-trib rapture is NOT written anywhere in God's Word.

The difference per God's written Word is that the "caught up" event Apostle Paul revealed in 1 Thessalonians 4:17 will be like what happened to Apostle Philip when he was "caught up"...

Acts 8:38-40
38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.
39 And when they were come up out of the water,
the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.
40
But Philip was found at Azotus: and passing through he preached in all the cities, till he came to Caesarea.
KJV


When Lord Jesus comes on the last day, He brings the asleep saints with Him, like Apostle Paul said in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-16. They are resurrected first before Jesus gathers them from Heaven, which points to that happening ONLY on the last day of this world. That is what Paul showed in verse 16.

Then those of us still alive on earth will be "caught up" LIKE PHILIP, to them and Jesus ON HIS WAY to the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem per Zechariah 14. The Zechariah 14 is NOT another time of Jesus' coming like the Pre-trib Rapture theory wrongly preaches. That "day of the Lord" is... the day of Christ's coming to gather His Church, both the asleep saints raised on that last day, and His saints still alive on earth.

That... is what God's Word in reality teaches about the day of Christ's future coming and gathering of His faithful Church.

And that is NOT about us flying off the earth to Heaven prior to the trib and then a later 2nd coming to live and reign with Jesus, making Lord Jesus come and go like a bouncing super ball.

Even the Daniel 3 Scripture of when Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-nego were cast into the hot fiery furnace heated 7 times hotter than necessary, and Jesus was with them inside that hot furnace, and they were not harmed, and even came out of it and their clothes did not even smell of smoke; that is for an example of how Christ's saints still on earth on that final day of Christ's coming will not be harmed by God's consuming fire cup of Wrath poured out upon the wicked (see 2 Peter 3:10-12).

So if you are one of the asleep saints on that last day of Christ's one and only time of coming, then He brings you with Him on His way to this earth, to the VERY SITE on earth where He ascended to Heaven from, per Acts 1, i.e., the Mount of Olives. And if you are still alive here on earth, you will be "caught up" like Apostle Philip and TRANSPORTED to Jesus and the asleep saints on the way to the Mount of Olives.

Jerusalem, on earth, is where Lord Jesus and His elect will reign over all the earth from, at His one and only return. This is what is written in God's Word, not some 'fly away' escape to Heaven to live.

And one of the reasons so many of my Christian brethren fail to understand this from God's Word is because of their dwelling too much on their 'flesh', and not understanding how on that 'last day' of this world, we all will be changed on that "last trump" of Paul, which is the same "trump of God" he mentioned in 1 Thessalonians 4:16.
 
The problem with your theology is that it is not based on the words in the text but by isolated words by which you build your theology system while ignoring context and themes and history and prophesy, and yea, some words.
No, that is a flat out fabrication on your part, and nothing more. I actually showed the relevant Scripture that supports what I said, but you obviously chose to REJECT THAT SCRIPTURE SUPPORT.

So already, you have begun your conversation with an out-right LIE in a VAIN attempt to destroy my credibility. That is all you have done by that above false statement above. Is that how you treat all those who OPPOSE men's false doctrine of a Pre-tribulational Rapture Theory?? Will you also LIE and say The Bible supports a Pre-trib Rapture, while never... giving any Biblical Scripture proof??

Just by your statement above, I can tell you are a deceiver that relies upon creating fake images about people to try and get your way. That is what you have made me think of you, it's your own... doing.

You quoted 2 passages in your comments, one from the NT and one from the OT. You would lead us to believe one is connected to the other, which of course they are not. Paul is writing Ephesians in AD 60, a full 20 years after God had opened up the door of faith to gentiles as recorded in Acts 10. Acts 10 took place in AD 40, ten years after the beginning of the church of Jesus Christ in Acts 2.
Those statements are so... SILLY. I merely revealed in Isaiah how Christ's Salvation was prophesied, all the way back to ISAIAH's DAY, that Christ's Salvation would go to the Gentiles also. And those THREE Isaiah examples I gave are not the only ones written in The Old Testament prophets either!

In contrast, Apostle Paul simply revealed that to THEM, to the JEWS, which God gave those Isaiah prophecies to, DID NOT YET UNDERSTAND HOW THE GENTILES RELATED TO THAT. And that is exactly what Peter also showed...

1 Peter 1:9-12
9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

10
Of which salvation the prophets have inquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:

11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.
KJV


And YOU CLAIM NEW TESTAMENT Scripture like the above by Peter IS NOT RELATED... to the Old Testament prophets like Isaiah about Salvation to the Gentiles?!? Are you an Anti-Semite or something, and try to SEPARATE the prophecies in The Old Testament from The New Testament like John Darby's false Dispensationlism does?

Welcome to my IGNORE LIST, you keep following your false doctrines of men and trying to downplay others to try and make yourself look superior.
 
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Well, just that above statement you made has a problem that is against God's Word about our gathering to Jesus Christ, "... by believing in God's Great Grace Departure!"

That idea, "Grace Departure", especially that word "Departure", is often used by those who preach a Pre-tribulation Rapture Theory, which a pre-trib rapture is NOT written anywhere in God's Word.

The difference per God's written Word is that the "caught up" event Apostle Paul revealed in 1 Thessalonians 4:17 will be like what happened to Apostle Philip when he was "caught up"...

Acts 8:38-40
38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.
39 And when they were come up out of the water,
the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.
40
But Philip was found at Azotus: and passing through he preached in all the cities, till he came to Caesarea.
KJV


When Lord Jesus comes on the last day, He brings the asleep saints with Him, like Apostle Paul said in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-16. They are resurrected first before Jesus gathers them from Heaven, which points to that happening ONLY on the last day of this world. That is what Paul showed in verse 16.

Then those of us still alive on earth will be "caught up" LIKE PHILIP, to them and Jesus ON HIS WAY to the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem per Zechariah 14. The Zechariah 14 is NOT another time of Jesus' coming like the Pre-trib Rapture theory wrongly preaches. That "day of the Lord" is... the day of Christ's coming to gather His Church, both the asleep saints raised on that last day, and His saints still alive on earth.

That... is what God's Word in reality teaches about the day of Christ's future coming and gathering of His faithful Church.

And that is NOT about us flying off the earth to Heaven prior to the trib and then a later 2nd coming to live and reign with Jesus, making Lord Jesus come and go like a bouncing super ball.

Even the Daniel 3 Scripture of when Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-nego were cast into the hot fiery furnace heated 7 times hotter than necessary, and Jesus was with them inside that hot furnace, and they were not harmed, and even came out of it and their clothes did not even smell of smoke; that is for an example of how Christ's saints still on earth on that final day of Christ's coming will not be harmed by God's consuming fire cup of Wrath poured out upon the wicked (see 2 Peter 3:10-12).

So if you are one of the asleep saints on that last day of Christ's one and only time of coming, then He brings you with Him on His way to this earth, to the VERY SITE on earth where He ascended to Heaven from, per Acts 1, i.e., the Mount of Olives. And if you are still alive here on earth, you will be "caught up" like Apostle Philip and TRANSPORTED to Jesus and the asleep saints on the way to the Mount of Olives.

Jerusalem, on earth, is where Lord Jesus and His elect will reign over all the earth from, at His one and only return. This is what is written in God's Word, not some 'fly away' escape to Heaven to live.

And one of the reasons so many of my Christian brethren fail to understand this from God's Word is because of their dwelling too much on their 'flesh', and not understanding how on that 'last day' of this world, we all will be changed on that "last trump" of Paul, which is the same "trump of God" he mentioned in 1 Thessalonians 4:16.
Even though believe in a pre-trib rapture I'm not opposed to your view above and it has validity. :)

The believers hope is in the 2nd Coming. That is the most important doctrine imho.
 
No, that is a flat out fabrication on your part, and nothing more. I actually showed the relevant Scripture that supports what I said, but you obviously chose to REJECT THAT SCRIPTURE SUPPORT.

So already, you have begun your conversation with an out-right LIE in a VAIN attempt to destroy my credibility. That is all you have done by that above false statement above. Is that how you treat all those who OPPOSE men's false doctrine of a Pre-tribulational Rapture Theory?? Will you also LIE and say The Bible supports a Pre-trib Rapture, while never... giving any Biblical Scripture proof??

Just by your statement above, I can tell you are a deceiver that relies upon creating fake images about people to try and get your way. That is what you have made me think of you, it's your own... doing.


Those statements are so... SILLY. I merely revealed in Isaiah how Christ's Salvation was prophesied, all the way back to ISAIAH's DAY, that Christ's Salvation would go to the Gentiles also. And those THREE Isaiah examples I gave are not the only ones written in The Old Testament prophets either!

In contrast, Apostle Paul simply revealed that to THEM, to the JEWS, which God gave those Isaiah prophecies to, DID NOT YET UNDERSTAND HOW THE GENTILES RELATED TO THAT. And that is exactly what Peter also showed...

1 Peter 1:9-12
9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

10
Of which salvation the prophets have inquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:

11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.
KJV


And YOU CLAIM NEW TESTAMENT Scripture like the above by Peter IS NOT RELATED... to the Old Testament prophets like Isaiah about Salvation to the Gentiles?!? Are you an Anti-Semite or something, and try to SEPARATE the prophecies in The Old Testament from The New Testament like John Darby's false Dispensationlism does?

Welcome to my IGNORE LIST, you keep following your false doctrines of men and trying to downplay others to try and make yourself look superior.
First, I am not an anti-semite. Far from it. Our Lord is a Jew in his earthly linage. He said salvation is of the Jews. Our apostle to the gentiles is a Jew. The Bible is a Jewish book and every word was written by a Jew. It would be silly to not recognize this.

You seem to be offended that I pointed out that what God is doing in this age of building his church, having judicially blinded his own people for their failure to recognize him through the OT prophesies and the testimony of John the Baptist, the voice of God the Father from heaven, and the miracles and personal witness of Jesus Christ as the Son of God (Jn 5) he is now in this age establishing his kingdom in it's spiritual manifestation, which had not been predicted as having gentiles in it as equal with the Jews and with the King physically absent during this time. This is the explanation of the history from the resurrection of Jesus Christ until the epistle of Ephesians was written 30 years later to explain the purpose of God in building his church during this age. The very fact that you will not accept the word "age" to distinguish this age from other ages just means you will never get it. Being angry about it will not help you.

Here is a prophesy from Jesus Christ himself 8 days before they crucified him with a Roman made sign over his head that said "this is Jesus of Nazareth the King of the Jews," and after the Jewish rulers had rejected him as their promised Messiah and King.

Lu 19:11 And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear. (the promised physical kingdom)


12 He said therefore, A certain nobleman (Jesus) went into a far country (heaven) to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return.(he has not returned yet)
13 And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, Occupy till I come.
14 But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying, We will not have this man to reign over us.
15 And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading.
16 Then came the first, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained ten pounds.
17 And he said unto him, Well, thou good servant: because thou hast been faithful in a very little, have thou authority over ten cities.
18 And the second came, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained five pounds.
19 And he said likewise to him, Be thou also over five cities.
20 And another came, saying, Lord, behold, here is thy pound, which I have kept laid up in a napkin:
21 For I feared thee, because thou art an austere man: thou takest up that thou layedst not down, and reapest that thou didst not sow.
22 And he saith unto him, Out of thine own mouth will I judge thee, thou wicked servant. Thou knewest that I was an austere man, taking up that I laid not down, and reaping that I did not sow:
23 Wherefore then gavest not thou my money into the bank, that at my coming I might have required mine own with usury?
24 And he said unto them that stood by, Take from him the pound, and give it to him that hath ten pounds.
25 (And they said unto him, Lord, he hath ten pounds.)
26 For I say unto you, That unto every one which hath shall be given; and from him that hath not, even that he hath shall be taken away from him.
27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.


Here is a prophesy in a parable that was spoken on Tuesday in the temple in Jerusalem before Jesus was crucified on Friday.

Mt 22:1 And Jesus answered and spake unto them again by parables, and said,
2 The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,
3 And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.
4 Again, he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell them which are bidden, Behold, I have prepared my dinner: my oxen and my fatlings are killed, and all things are ready: come unto the marriage.
5 But they made light of it, and went their ways, one to his farm, another to his merchandise:
6 And the remnant took his servants, and entreated them spitefully, and slew them.
7 But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city. (this happened in 70 AD)

The church of Jesus Christ will take on a distinctly gentile character from this point on and there will no longer be an Israel with a national identity until 1948 AD.

8 Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy.
9 Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage.
10 So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests.
11 And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment:
12 And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.
13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

Israel out of her land is cut off from the covenants of the OT and reckoned by God as gentiles and under the authority of the nations.

There is no doubt that the coming of Jesus was to choose his Jewish bride and he sent out his disciples to call them to the wedding but they would not come. Later, after his death and resurrection he sent out his disciples to the Jews, Acts 2 thru 7, seven years, and they would not come. Everything was ready he said. Now, there is a delay because he sent them out to those who had not been bidden and that is what is still going on today. The only requirement for coming is to have on a wedding garment given by the King. This is a robe of righteousness. The purpose for the guests is to fill his house.

Ro 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

You do not have light on this subject that you are trying to deal with and you are battling against the truth that he will come for his bride before his wrath when he will eliminate all things that offend and establishes his rule over a saved citizenship on earth.. He certainly is not angry at his bride. The church is the house that Jesus is building in this age. It has a Jewish foundation (Ep 2:20) but it is a gentile house.

He 3:1 Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;
2 Who was faithful to him that appointed him, as also Moses was faithful in all his house.
3 For this [man] was counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as he who hath builded the house hath more honour than the house.
4 For every house is builded by some [man]; but he that built all things [is] God.
5 And Moses verily was faithful in all his house, as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken after;
6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.

I am going to say the Hebrews did not hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm until the end (of that generation) or the story of this age would have unfolded much differently. The house is still in building with gentile material. It is not filled yet, otherwise Christ would have returned.
 
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Even though believe in a pre-trib rapture I'm not opposed to your view above and it has validity. :)

The believers hope is in the 2nd Coming. That is the most important doctrine imho.
Sorry, but to try and be neutral on the issue of Christ's coming and our gathering to Him is not a fence-riding issue. One can be in grave danger depending upon which way one believes. And I'll get to why that is eventually.
 
Sorry, but to try and be neutral on the issue of Christ's coming and our gathering to Him is not a fence-riding issue. One can be in grave danger depending upon which way one believes. And I'll get to why that is eventually.
I'm in grave danger from a variety of things every day. But my millennial views are not one of them. One of the nice things about being a Calvinist is that I can actually trust God.
 
No one who is Christ's will bow to the wrong Christ.
Wrong!

And here's an example of how the Pre-trib Rapture doctors deceive...

You know that little Scripture at the end of Luke 17 where Jesus is contrasting the time of Noe and Lot to the day of His future coming, and also about the two men in one bed, one 'taken' and the other left, two women grinding, one 'taken', and the other left?

Jesus was contrasting the one TAKEN to those outside Noah's Ark that were TAKEN by the flood.

Once you get to the last Luke 17:37 verse, Jesus' disciples ask Him, "Where, Lord?" about those TAKEN.

Lord Jesus then tells them that wheresoever the dead carcase is, that's where the fowls will be gathered. The Matthew 24:28 verse of what Jesus said uses the idea of a "carcase" instead of just the word "body". That "carcase" idea means the deceived that those fowls feast upon. It is an expression of being 'taken in deception' by Satan and his host, and being found that way by Lord Jesus when He returns. Remember the five foolish virgins in His Matthew 25 parable of the ten virgins?

And how... do the Pre-trib Rapture doctors teach that Luke 17 idea?? They teach that those in Christ will be those 1st ones TAKEN, and that the deceived will be Left-Behind, which is just the OPPOSITE of what Jesus taught there in Luke 17! Tim LaHaye made millions off his 13 book Left-Behind series and movies.

That then points to only TWO ways to believe for the very end of this world: either one remains focused on what Lord Jesus taught in HIS Word, and patiently waits for His coming, while 'watching' the SIGNS of the end He gave us so as to NOT be deceived, or one falls into deception by the false-Messiah who comes first working supernatural miracles and claiming to be The Christ, and his little workers behind the scenes that work to deceive you to bow to that false-Messiah.

The test of the coming false-Messiah to Jerusalem, working great signs and wonders, is not supposed to be upon those in Christ Jesus. It's supposed to be for the orthodox unbelieving Jews, and the unsaved that reject Jesus Christ. But if they are the ones you listen to and heed, instead Christ in His Word, then Jesus will allow you to be deceived, and cast you with the wicked on the day of His return like He showed with the five foolish virgins and the unprofitable servant (Matthew 25).
 
I'm in grave danger from a variety of things every day. But my millennial views are not one of them. One of the nice things about being a Calvinist is that I can actually trust God.
So what did Lord Jesus and Apostle Paul show is the order and time of His coming to gather His Church, per Bible Scripture?
 
Hello @DavP,

For the members of the Body of Christ there is a very simple and straight forward hope, and that is found in Colossians 3:4:-

'For ye are dead,
and your life is hid with Christ in God.-
When Christ, Who is our life, shall appear,
then shall ye also appear with Him in glory.'

(Col 3:3-4)

The members are so closely identified with their risen and ascended Lord, that they are with Him where He is: So when He appears in glory, they shall also appear with Him there. It is His appearing that I look for, in the sure knowledge that I shall appear with Him, with all who love His appearing. I do not understand the when, or how, but I do believe that it will be accomplished as He has said.

* This was Paul's hope, expressed in 2 Timothy 4:8:-

'For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand.
I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith:
Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness,
which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day:
and not to me only, but unto all them also that love His appearing.'

(2Tim. 4:6-8)

* No fear, only trust. :)

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris
 
Hello @DavP,

For the members of the Body of Christ there is a very simple and straight forward hope, and that is found in Colossians 3:4:-

'For ye are dead,
and your life is hid with Christ in God.-
When Christ, Who is our life, shall appear,
then shall ye also appear with Him in glory.'

(Col 3:3-4)

The members are so closely identified with their risen and ascended Lord, that they are with Him where He is: So when He appears in glory, they shall also appear with Him there. It is His appearing that I look for, in the sure knowledge that I shall appear with Him, with all who love His appearing. I do not understand the when, or how, but I do believe that it will be accomplished as He has said.

* This was Paul's hope, expressed in 2 Timothy 4:8:-

'For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand.
I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith:
Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness,
which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day:
and not to me only, but unto all them also that love His appearing.'

(2Tim. 4:6-8)

* No fear, only trust. :)

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris
This is an excellent point, Complete. Consider the words (that no one notices it seems). Here is Paul speaking to believers who have been born again of the Spirit, who is the life of God, and yet he says they are "dead" in the verses you presented to us, Co 3:3-4. One would think those who have the life of God in them would be anything but dead, wouldn't one? How does one process what we are told here?

Well, for one thing, it provokes me to be sure of my definitions of words God uses to advance his doctrines. This is the reason I reject the definitions that I have been given by some religious groups, such as the Calvinists, who systematically butchers the meaning of the word death that God forwards in his revelation to us and by doing so, confuses sound doctrine.

The revelation of the truths of God, such as the translation or the gathering together of the church and the dispensations of God, are "word" revelations. One must believe the words but they must accept them within the context of the structure of God's purposes in his unfolding drama of redemption of sinners. When ones does this, he must receive the words as the absolute authority of God, until Jesus Christ comes for us.

I have given the definition of the Bible word "dispensation" is other threads. How it is defined is important.

The reason we have these disagreements, IMO, is that we do not have the same definitions for the words.
 
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