Total Depravity

The life of the unregenerate man is one unbroken course of sin. Sin, we say, not crime. Water cannot rise above its own level. Being a sinner by nature, man is a sinner by practice, and cannot be anything else. A corrupt tree cannot bring forth good fruit. A poisoned fountain cannot send forth sweet waters. Because the sinner has no spiritual nature within him, because he is totally depraved and in complete servitude to sin, because he does nothing for God’s glory, every action of his will is polluted, every deed unacceptable to the Holy One !

To say a spiritually dead corrupt sinner can bring forth the good fruit thats pleasing to God of Faith and Repentance is contrary to nature and the word of God Matt 7:17-18


Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

And repentance towards God is good fruit. John the Baptist indicates that here

Matt 3:7-8


7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:
 
@civic

Jesus teaching in the parables refute your claims.

No it doesnt, and Jesus is very serious, hence He prefaces His declaration with the words, twice "amen amen"

Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.

This applies to all natural born sinners, even to these very religious jews. Yet being born only of the flesh, unregenerate, they as well as all unregenerate sinners are slaves to sin, by nature.
 
@civic



No it doesnt, and Jesus is very serious, hence He prefaces His declaration with the words, twice "amen amen"

Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.

This applies to all natural born sinners, even to these very religious jews. Yet being born only of the flesh, unregenerate, they as well as all unregenerate sinners are slaves to sin, by nature.

Jesus refutes you once again

Matthew 13- The Parable of the Sower



1The same day went Jesus out of the house, and sat by the sea side.
2 And great multitudes were gathered together unto him, so that he went into a ship, and sat; and the whole multitude stood on the shore.
3 And he spake many things unto them in parables, saying, Behold, a sower went forth to sow;
4 And when he sowed, some seeds fell by the way side, and the fowls came and devoured them up:
5 Some fell upon stony places, where they had not much earth: and forthwith they sprung up, because they had no deepness of earth:
6 And when the sun was up, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away.
7 And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprung up, and choked them:
8 But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold.
9 Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.


10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.
17 For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.


18 Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower.


19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.

20 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;
21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.

22 He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.

23 But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

T- man can choose to hear, see and receive the gospel
U- all can choose to believe and receive as demonstrated in the parable of the 4 soils
L- all soils received the seed without exception
I- 3 soils resisted all but 1 soil remained faithful and did not resist
P- 3/4 soils ( minds/hearts )did not preserver in the faith

1- Only something alive can be choked. You cannot choke the dead. And as we can see they all had life to begin with in each soil.
2- Only something alive can be scorched by the Sun and withered.
3- Only someone alive can receive the word in the heart and have it snatched away
4- Only someone alive can receive the word with Joy and endure for a while

Luke 14:23 And the master said to the servant, ‘Go out to the highways and hedges and compel (αναγκασον) people to come in, that my house may be filled. 24 For I tell you, none of those men who were invited shall taste my banquet.’” @synergy. Remember this from the old forum :) The Greek word αναγκασον is to urge or compel, not irresistibly draw.

There are 4 major Calvinist pillars that fall with the Parable of the Wedding Feast which is connected to the Parable of the Sower above.
  1. Monergism (Total Depravity),
  2. Preservation of Saints (many called by God but few chosen by God),
  3. Irresistible Grace (many called by God but few chosen by God),
  4. and even Limited Atonement because as many as could possibly be found were invited

Resistible Grace

Acts 7:51
“You men who are stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears are always resisting the Holy Spirit; you are doing just as your fathers did.

Matthew 22:3
And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.

Matthew 23:37
Jerusalem, Jerusalem, killing the prophets and stoning those having been sent to her! How often would I have gathered together your children, the way in which a hen gathers together her chicks under the wings, and you were not willing!

Proverbs 1:24
Because I have called and you refused to listen, have stretched out my hand and no one has heeded,

Isaiah 65:12
I will destine you for the sword, and you will all kneel down to be slaughtered, because I called and you did not answer, I spoke and you did not listen; you did evil in My sight and chose that in which I did not delight."

Isaiah 66:4
So I will choose their punishment and I will bring terror upon them, because I called and no one answered, I spoke and no one listened. But they did evil in My sight and chose that in which I did not delight."


The Atonement has no limits

John 1:29
The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

Hebrews 2:9
But we do see Jesus, who was made lower than the angels for a little while, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

Titus 2:11
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men,

Titus 3:4
But when the kindness and the love of mankind of God our Savior appeared

John 3:16
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

1 Timothy 2:4
Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord does not delay his promise, as some regard “delay,” but he is patient with you, not wishing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

1 John 2:2
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

2 Corinthians 5:14
For Christ’s love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died.

conclusion: Jesus clearly refutes you false claims.

hope this helps !!!
 
@civic

Jesus refutes you once again

Im telling you what Jesus said, man is a sinner, a servant to sin. Even the regenerated believer, at times is a servant of sin, let alone an unregenerate sinner. Observe Rom 7:23-25

23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

See that ? That which is of the flesh, even within a regenerate soul as Paul, he with the flesh serves the law of sin. He says he is, not was, in captivity to the law of sin.

So please explain how an unregenerate person, in the flesh, cannot be a slave to sin ?
 
@civic



Im telling you what Jesus said, man is a sinner, a servant to sin. Even the regenerated believer, at times is a servant of sin, let alone an unregenerate sinner. Observe Rom 7:23-25

23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

See that ? That which is of the flesh, even within a regenerate soul as Paul, he with the flesh serves the law of sin. He says he is, not was, in captivity to the law of sin.

So please explain how an unregenerate person, in the flesh, cannot be a slave to sin ?
Romans 7 is not Jesus and its Paul talking about himself under the law prior to his conversion.


next fallacy
 
Romans 7 is not Jesus and its Paul talking about himself under the law prior to his conversion.


next fallacy
So are u telling me a unregenerate person, born only of the flesh as Per Jn 3:6

That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Is not a slave to sin, as Jesus proclaimed as well in Jn 8:34 ? Seems to me Jn 8 and Rom 7 agree
 
So are u telling me a unregenerate person, born only of the flesh as Per Jn 3:6

That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Is not a slave to sin, as Jesus proclaimed as well in Jn 8:34 ? Seems to me Jn 8 and Rom 7 agree
you are not understanding Jesus teaching that man is not totally depraved with total inability- He taught just the opposite.
 
@civic

Paul talking about himself under the law prior to his conversion.

False, Paul is speaking about his captivity to sin in the flesh as a believer, already converted, how else could he serve the law of God with his mind Rom 7:25

I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Man in the flesh, unregenerate isnt subject to the law of God Rom 8:7-8

Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
 
being a servant of sin does not mean that the sinner is incapable of not sinning and choosing to serve Christ.
It means your will is a slave to sin, not free to righteousness. Believing in Christ is unto righteousness, its to become a servant to righteousness Rom 6 18,20

Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.

So yes, until made free from sin, the sinner cannot serve Christ unto righteousness. And mans will doesnt set him free from the being servant of sin. Do you know who does that ?
 
The Canons of Dort
Article 3 stated, “Therefore, all people are conceived in sin and are born children of wrath, unfit for any saving good, inclined to evil, dead in their sins, and slaves to sin; without the grace of the regenerating Holy Spirit they are neither willing nor able to return to God, to reform their distorted nature, or even to dispose themselves to such reform.”

The distinction in their view is that people do not become children of wrath due to their sinful acts, but they enter the world as children of wrath.

Cart Infront of the horse logic:

Calvinists would have us believe we can not even respond to the gospel when it is presented to us. In our unregenerate state, we do not have free will so far as ‘believing on’ or ‘receiving’ Jesus Christ as Savior is concerned.”

They clam that unbelievers “cannot” respond to the gospel by repenting and believing in Jesus when it is presented. Consistent with article 3 in the Canons of Dort, they teach that a person believes in Jesus after they are born again.

Sounds like "Another Gospel" to me.
 
The Canons of Dort
Article 3 stated, “Therefore, all people are conceived in sin and are born children of wrath, unfit for any saving good, inclined to evil, dead in their sins, and slaves to sin; without the grace of the regenerating Holy Spirit they are neither willing nor able to return to God, to reform their distorted nature, or even to dispose themselves to such reform.”

The distinction in their view is that people do not become children of wrath due to their sinful acts, but they enter the world as children of wrath.

Cart Infront of the horse logic:

Calvinists would have us believe we can not even respond to the gospel when it is presented to us. In our unregenerate state, we do not have free will so far as ‘believing on’ or ‘receiving’ Jesus Christ as Savior is concerned.”

They clam that unbelievers “cannot” respond to the gospel by repenting and believing in Jesus when it is presented. Consistent with article 3 in the Canons of Dort, they teach that a person believes in Jesus after they are born again.

Sounds like "Another Gospel" to me.
The sinner thats unregenerate, a slave to sin, does respond to the Gospel, as a slave to sin can, in unbelief.
 
The sinner thats unregenerate, a slave to sin, does respond to the Gospel, as a slave to sin can, in unbelief.
Some do respond that way, that's their choice. Others receive the gift of Salvation that is received by faith or trusting in Christ. Faith is the instrument by which we accept salvation.
 
Some do respond that way, that's their choice. Others receive the gift of Salvation that is received by faith or trusting in Christ. Faith is the instrument by which we accept salvation.
Here is their response, to the unregenerate, the Gospel is fooloshness to them 1 Cor 1:18

18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

They cant understand it spiritually and favorably 1 Cor 2:14

14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know[understand] them, because they are spiritually discerned.

So yeah, he will respond, to his condemnation
 
An exception leaves my question unanswered, though.

Genesis 6:5 Then the Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

Has mankind changed since then? How would that be possible?
Since sin has not changed; man has not changed. Man has continued to miss the "mark" since creation. Messiah came and in believing faith we will not miss the "mark", but hit the "bullseye" every time.
Shalom
 
Some do respond that way, that's their choice. Others receive the gift of Salvation that is received by faith or trusting in Christ. Faith is the instrument by which we accept salvation.
Their choice is predetermined to unbelief due to their native slavery to sin. See if you put before a lion a zebra steak to eat and a fruit salad, his going to freely choose the zebra steak, being guided by his nature.

The Gospel is spiritual light, yet man is darkness, so he hates the light Jn 3:19-20

19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

Prior to regeneration the elect are darkness Eph 5:


For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light:

Not only in darkness, but darkness itself, so in that state/condition, we hate the light, and will choose accordingly
 
Here is their response, to the unregenerate, the Gospel is fooloshness to them 1 Cor 1:18

18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

They cant understand it spiritually and favorably 1 Cor 2:14

14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know[understand] them, because they are spiritually discerned.

So yeah, he will respond, to his condemnation
The message of the cross is that the Son of God was crucified to atone for the sins of mankind and secure pardon and salvation for all who would believe in Him. It is this message that is considered folly by those who are perishing—those who disbelieve God’s sentence of death on humanity and prefer human ideas over God’s truth. Who make the wrong choice.

The message of the cross is foolishness to some because in their pride they will not bend the knee at the foot of the cross. They do not allow their hearts to be broken from having sinned against a good, holy, and loving God.

The cross is foolishness to some because they love their sin and do not want to change. Jesus said, “Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross and follow me. For whoever wants to save their life will lose it, but whoever loses their life for me will find it”. This is a radical call to turn around and go in a new direction. This requires repentance, a change of mind about God and the things of God.

If they continue in unbelief, labeling the message of the cross as foolishness, the tragic result will be fully experienced condemnation from God.
 
Their choice is predetermined to unbelief due to their native slavery to sin. See if you put before a lion a zebra steak to eat and a fruit salad, his going to freely choose the zebra steak, being guided by his nature.

The Gospel is spiritual light, yet man is darkness, so he hates the light Jn 3:19-20

19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

Prior to regeneration the elect are darkness Eph 5:


For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light:

Not only in darkness, but darkness itself, so in that state/condition, we hate the light, and will choose accordingly
We are rescued from the kingdom of darkness when we choose to believe in Jesus. We allow the light of God’s truth and love to shine in our lives and out into the dark world around us.

Jesus told believers, “You are the light of the world. . . . Let your light shine before others, that they may see your good deeds and glorify your Father in heaven” Matthew 5:14

We are no longer the people who loved darkness rather than light. Instead, we are “children of the light and children of the day” 1 Thessalonians 5:5
 
The Canons of Dort
Article 3 stated, “Therefore, all people are conceived in sin and are born children of wrath, unfit for any saving good, inclined to evil, dead in their sins, and slaves to sin; without the grace of the regenerating Holy Spirit they are neither willing nor able to return to God, to reform their distorted nature, or even to dispose themselves to such reform.”

The distinction in their view is that people do not become children of wrath due to their sinful acts, but they enter the world as children of wrath.

Cart Infront of the horse logic:

Calvinists would have us believe we can not even respond to the gospel when it is presented to us. In our unregenerate state, we do not have free will so far as ‘believing on’ or ‘receiving’ Jesus Christ as Savior is concerned.”

They clam that unbelievers “cannot” respond to the gospel by repenting and believing in Jesus when it is presented. Consistent with article 3 in the Canons of Dort, they teach that a person believes in Jesus after they are born again.

Sounds like "Another Gospel" to me.
Hi Matthias!
Agreed.
The cart before the horse.
A different gospel.
:)
 
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