Where does John ever talk about goats? Your imagination is flaring and making up fables and fairy tales once again.
Total Depravity
- Thread starter The Rogue Tomato
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Believe
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The natural man is capable of doing good works.
We all, save Christ, have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.
However, that does not mean that those who do not have faith in Jesus are incapable of anything good or of any righteous work whatsoever, as scripture shows in many places:
- Ahab's humility: "Have you noticed how Ahab has humbled himself before me? Because he has humbled himself, I will not bring this disaster in his day..." I Kings 21:49
- Cornelius: "At Caesarea there was a man named Cornelius,...He and all his family were devout and God-fearing; he gave generously to those in need and prayed to God regularly...The angel answered, “Your prayers and gifts to the poor have come up as a memorial offering before God." Acts 10:1-4 [Cornelius, however, did hope for the promised Messiah - he just didn't know Jesus was the Messiah yet, so might not fit this question.]
Parable of the good Samaritan: But a Samaritan, as he traveled, came where the man was; and when he saw him, he had compassion on him. He went to him and bandaged his wounds, pouring on oil and wine....“Which of these three do you think was a neighbor to the man who fell into the hands of robbers?” The expert in the law replied, “The one who had mercy on him.” Jesus told him, “Go and do likewise.”" Lk 10:33-37
Jesus flipped expectations around in that parable - it was the Samaritan show showed mercy, not the devout Levites.
Nebuchadnezzar: "... Then I praised the Most High; I honored and glorified him who lives forever. His dominion is an eternal dominion; his kingdom endures from generation to generation....Now I, Nebuchadnezzar, praise and exalt and glorify the King of heaven, because everything he does is right and all his ways are just. And those who walk in pride he is able to humble." Dan 4
Sailors: At this the men greatly feared the Lord, and they offered a sacrifice to the Lord and made vows to him. Jonah 1:16
In addition to these and many other examples in scripture of specific individuals doing something morally good, there are some scriptures as well about the general ability of man to obey, seek God, and do right. [Again, none of this contradicts the fact that no human can -perfectly- obey, seek God, and do right, as even one transgression makes us a lawbreaker (James 2:10-11.)]
Mankind seeking God: Paul said, "From one man He made every nation of men, to inhabit the whole earth; and He determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their lands. His purpose (will) was for the nations to seek after God and perhaps feel their way toward him and find him--though he is not far from any one of us." (Acts 17:26-27)
General ability to do what is right: "...'The righteousness of a righteous man will not deliver him in the day of his transgression, and as for the wickedness of the wicked, he will not stumble because of it in the day when he turns from his wickedness; whereas a righteous man will not be able to live by his righteousness on the day when he commits sin.' If I tell a righteous person that they will surely live, but then they trust in their righteousness and do evil, none of the righteous things that person has done will be remembered; they will die for the evil they have done." Ezek 33:12-13
And
"For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves...They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.)..." Rom 2:13-16
We all, save Christ, have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.
However, that does not mean that those who do not have faith in Jesus are incapable of anything good or of any righteous work whatsoever, as scripture shows in many places:
- Ahab's humility: "Have you noticed how Ahab has humbled himself before me? Because he has humbled himself, I will not bring this disaster in his day..." I Kings 21:49
- Cornelius: "At Caesarea there was a man named Cornelius,...He and all his family were devout and God-fearing; he gave generously to those in need and prayed to God regularly...The angel answered, “Your prayers and gifts to the poor have come up as a memorial offering before God." Acts 10:1-4 [Cornelius, however, did hope for the promised Messiah - he just didn't know Jesus was the Messiah yet, so might not fit this question.]
Parable of the good Samaritan: But a Samaritan, as he traveled, came where the man was; and when he saw him, he had compassion on him. He went to him and bandaged his wounds, pouring on oil and wine....“Which of these three do you think was a neighbor to the man who fell into the hands of robbers?” The expert in the law replied, “The one who had mercy on him.” Jesus told him, “Go and do likewise.”" Lk 10:33-37
Jesus flipped expectations around in that parable - it was the Samaritan show showed mercy, not the devout Levites.
Nebuchadnezzar: "... Then I praised the Most High; I honored and glorified him who lives forever. His dominion is an eternal dominion; his kingdom endures from generation to generation....Now I, Nebuchadnezzar, praise and exalt and glorify the King of heaven, because everything he does is right and all his ways are just. And those who walk in pride he is able to humble." Dan 4
Sailors: At this the men greatly feared the Lord, and they offered a sacrifice to the Lord and made vows to him. Jonah 1:16
In addition to these and many other examples in scripture of specific individuals doing something morally good, there are some scriptures as well about the general ability of man to obey, seek God, and do right. [Again, none of this contradicts the fact that no human can -perfectly- obey, seek God, and do right, as even one transgression makes us a lawbreaker (James 2:10-11.)]
Mankind seeking God: Paul said, "From one man He made every nation of men, to inhabit the whole earth; and He determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their lands. His purpose (will) was for the nations to seek after God and perhaps feel their way toward him and find him--though he is not far from any one of us." (Acts 17:26-27)
General ability to do what is right: "...'The righteousness of a righteous man will not deliver him in the day of his transgression, and as for the wickedness of the wicked, he will not stumble because of it in the day when he turns from his wickedness; whereas a righteous man will not be able to live by his righteousness on the day when he commits sin.' If I tell a righteous person that they will surely live, but then they trust in their righteousness and do evil, none of the righteous things that person has done will be remembered; they will die for the evil they have done." Ezek 33:12-13
And
"For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves...They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.)..." Rom 2:13-16
Believe
Active member
Sheep, Goats, Donkeys, Baboons, None of those are mentioned. The verse says ALL MEN.
John 12:32 is about the message of the gospel, focused on Christ's death and resurrection, is one that "calls" to all people. Not to just some people that believe in the false doctrine of Calvinism.
brightfame52
Well-known member
I made that clarification, since Jesus clarified itin Jn 10:11,15 who does Jesus say in those verses specifically He died for ? Isnt being lifted up and He laying down His Life the same thing ?
brightfame52
Well-known member
Christ mentioned what men He died for in Jn 10:11,15 what does it say there ?
civic
Well-known member
Correct I can’t read what’s not there lol .
Must be in the book of Casper 3:16- the invisible ghost verse .
Next
civic
Well-known member
things myths are made of lol
brightfame52
Well-known member
You cant see it, how can you read something you cant see ? Matt 13 13
Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
Believe
Active member
Sorry I'm not doing your work for you. You want a quote a verse put it in your post.
The good news of the gospel is that through faith we are given grace and forgiven of our sins due to what Jesus did for us by dying on the cross and coming back to life. Putting your faith in something is as much a choice as any of the other choices that you’ve made in life — yet Calvinism denies that Christians have that ability.
Not to mention the fact that God tells us that the sacrifice of Jesus was for the sins of the whole world and that the plan of having Jesus die for the whole world came out of the love that God has for His entire creation.
The point is that we do have a choice; that choice must be to believe in what Jesus Christ accomplished on the cross to be saved and that we cannot please God without choosing to have faith.
Believe
Active member
How can you see something and read it and not understand it? It has to do with being deceived?
brightfame52
Well-known member
I did my own work. Jn 12:32 is the Sheep and they are made alive
civic
Well-known member
civic
Well-known member
Point all of us to " SHEEP " in John 12 ?
Where are SHEEP mentioned ?
Must be that invisible ink only you can see.
next
brightfame52
Well-known member
That scripture didnt apply to them
brightfame52
Well-known member
I didnt say the word sheep is in Jn 12, I said Sheep is in Jn 10, thats who He died for according to Jn 10
Believe
Active member
Limited atonement is a part of the false doctrine of Calvinism, that what Jesus did on the cross is not made available to anyone who believes.
Salvation is a free gift to all men accessed through faith and God does not want anyone to perish, according to the Bible.
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. 2nd Peter 3:9
brightfame52
Well-known member
This is about total depravity, if you want to discuss limited atonement see
Believe
Active member
Jesus says, of course, that there are other sheep which are not of this sheepfold (John 10:16), which most likely refers to Gentile believers who were known as “God-fearing Gentiles.” They also will recognize Jesus as their Shepherd when they hear His voice, so that both Jews and Gentiles will be joined together into one sheepfold, the fold of Jesus Christ, the church.
You're one of his his sheep when You Believe in Jesus as your savior.
You're one of his his sheep when You Believe in Jesus as your savior.
Believe
Active member
Actually when you started talking about who's a sheep and who's not a sheep you are discussing limited atonement which you brought up.
Here's what a top calvinist site Ligonier ministries, RC Sprouls site has to say about John chapter 10 and limited atonement.
Limited Atonement | Ligonier Ministries
How could the perfect atonement won for us by Christ ever be considered "limited?" Today, Barry Cooper unpacks the precious meaning of a much-misunderstood phrase.
www.ligonier.org
Jeff
New member
Calvin is wrong about total depravity, because Scripture tells us even those outside of the law can “do by nature what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that what the law requires is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them” Romans 2:14-15
