Then Why Creation?
- Thread starter Wrangler
- Start date
Complete
Active Member
Hello Wrangler,
As usual the context explains: for the chapter is intended to give courage in the face of the enemy, by comparing the might of Jehovah with the nations. To Him, in Whose hands the elements become weapons of war in defence of His own, the nations are as nothing: all their boastfulness, and defiant rhetoric is like water on a duck's back; mere emptiness and froth.
'For God so loved the world,
that he gave His only begotten Son,
that whosoever believeth in Him
should not perish, but have everlasting life.
For God sent not His Son into the world to condemn the world;
but that the world through Him might be saved.'
(Joh 3:16-17)
Within the love of Christ our Saviour,
our Lord and Head.
Chris
Wrangler
Active Member
Thanks.
Brakelite
Active Member
In addition to @Complete's very good answer above, I would suggest another reading of the quoted verses, and realise that they aren't referring to God's people, but the nations of the world. Those nations in due time, which I believe is not too far distant, are destined for destruction anyway.
KJV Daniel 2:35
35 Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.
GOD’s purpose:
I have come to realize that the fact that the full story of GOD's interaction with man on this earth ends with a heavenly marriage implies that the heavenly marriage was HIS purpose for our creation. It is in the heavenly marriage that HIS GLORY shines forth the strongest and most perfect in relationship with us, NOT in justice nor redemption which are merely aids to bring the marriage to fruition after to our moral stumbles.
HIS plan for all creation was the heavenly marriage.
HIS plan for each of us is the heavenly marriage.
Everything HE has ever done or will ever do conformed to this purpose, this plan, and He has never done anything that would slow this plan down or put it off or side track it in the least!
It implies that ALL of HIS being, all of HIS Sovereignty, all of HIS love, HIS righteousness and HIS nature as just have one perfect focus, to culminate HIS relationship with HIS creation in the heavenly marriage: one plan, one focus.
Therefore:
Our free will is an absolute necessity.
Aside from the fact that GOD cannot create any evil so all sinfulness proves the free will of the sinner, it is also a fact that true love and true marriage can be arrived at only by the free will acceptance of the lover and acceptance of the proposal of marriage by the Bride. GOD is not a Borg willing to have a Stepford wife...
This implies that GOD would never not save anyone who could be saved to become HIS Bride, not for any reason. No one is in hell who can be saved by any IF in reality... This also implies that only those who chose to eternally reject HIM as GOD and husband by a deep desire not to be involved in HIS plan would ever be passed over for entry into the marriage because they have a right to their free will decisions to choose such a path.
It implies that everyone ever created in HIS image, ie, able to be a proper Bride for HIM, was created perfectly capable and able to become HIS bride, not held back by any imperfection or lack of acceptance by HIM.
Isaiah 43:7, 21
7 "whom I created for my glory"
21 the people I formed for myself that they may proclaim my praise.
Ecc 7:29 Only this have I found: I have discovered that God made man upright, but they have sought out many schemes.” Upright: S3477, yashar, straightforward, just, upright. GOD created no one disgustingly corrupt, enslaved to sin and unable to be HIS Bride.
By their coming into being everyone must have been within HIS plan, not separated from HIM by anything until they decide by their informed free will to reject HIM and HIS plan. HE cannot marry an evil person so why would HE create by any means, any system at all, evil people? It is impossible.
To speak to the OP, the nations is a reference to those people who chose to rebuke YHWH as a liar and therefore a false god, eternally enslaved to sin as having eternally repudiated HIM as their saviour from sin and unable to change their mind and save themselves due to enslavement to sin. They are the weeds, the people of the evil one in Matt 13:27-40, those condemned already in John 3:18....not HIS children who have gone astray into sin, the sinful good seed.
I have come to realize that the fact that the full story of GOD's interaction with man on this earth ends with a heavenly marriage implies that the heavenly marriage was HIS purpose for our creation. It is in the heavenly marriage that HIS GLORY shines forth the strongest and most perfect in relationship with us, NOT in justice nor redemption which are merely aids to bring the marriage to fruition after to our moral stumbles.
HIS plan for all creation was the heavenly marriage.
HIS plan for each of us is the heavenly marriage.
Everything HE has ever done or will ever do conformed to this purpose, this plan, and He has never done anything that would slow this plan down or put it off or side track it in the least!
It implies that ALL of HIS being, all of HIS Sovereignty, all of HIS love, HIS righteousness and HIS nature as just have one perfect focus, to culminate HIS relationship with HIS creation in the heavenly marriage: one plan, one focus.
Therefore:
Our free will is an absolute necessity.
Aside from the fact that GOD cannot create any evil so all sinfulness proves the free will of the sinner, it is also a fact that true love and true marriage can be arrived at only by the free will acceptance of the lover and acceptance of the proposal of marriage by the Bride. GOD is not a Borg willing to have a Stepford wife...
This implies that GOD would never not save anyone who could be saved to become HIS Bride, not for any reason. No one is in hell who can be saved by any IF in reality... This also implies that only those who chose to eternally reject HIM as GOD and husband by a deep desire not to be involved in HIS plan would ever be passed over for entry into the marriage because they have a right to their free will decisions to choose such a path.
It implies that everyone ever created in HIS image, ie, able to be a proper Bride for HIM, was created perfectly capable and able to become HIS bride, not held back by any imperfection or lack of acceptance by HIM.
Isaiah 43:7, 21
7 "whom I created for my glory"
21 the people I formed for myself that they may proclaim my praise.
Ecc 7:29 Only this have I found: I have discovered that God made man upright, but they have sought out many schemes.” Upright: S3477, yashar, straightforward, just, upright. GOD created no one disgustingly corrupt, enslaved to sin and unable to be HIS Bride.
By their coming into being everyone must have been within HIS plan, not separated from HIM by anything until they decide by their informed free will to reject HIM and HIS plan. HE cannot marry an evil person so why would HE create by any means, any system at all, evil people? It is impossible.
To speak to the OP, the nations is a reference to those people who chose to rebuke YHWH as a liar and therefore a false god, eternally enslaved to sin as having eternally repudiated HIM as their saviour from sin and unable to change their mind and save themselves due to enslavement to sin. They are the weeds, the people of the evil one in Matt 13:27-40, those condemned already in John 3:18....not HIS children who have gone astray into sin, the sinful good seed.
jeremiah1five
Active Member
This should not be disturbing to you but cause to shout and glorify God for the work He does on the planet towards those He will save. Let the dead bury their dead. YOU follow ME, He says.
Please consider that the word nations refers to the evil people of Romans 1:21 to the end of the chapter. Usually called the reprobate (ie counterfeit or illegitimate), the nations do not include all of humanity but only those who are condemned already for never having put their faith in Christ as their saviour, John 3:18. Legitimate children of GOD are trained in righteousness, Heb 12:6, while the condemnation of the people of the evil one is certain, Matt 25:41 Then He will say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. even though it has been postponed for the sins of the good, elect, seed:
Matt 13:27 The owner’s servants came to him and said, ‘Sir, didn’t you sow good seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come from?’ 28 ‘An enemy did this,’ he replied. [a reference to the explanation of this parable, ie, no more metaphor, in verses 36-39]
So the servants asked him, ‘Do you want us to go and pull them up?’[to bring the judgement upon them?] 29 ‘NO!’ he said, [postpone the judgement because...] ‘if you pull the weeds now, you might uproot the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest. The time of the harvest is the time of the maturity of the wheat and the only maturity that saves a sinner from the judgment is a mature holiness! Thus their sinfulness separated them from the holy elect and are the cause of the continued suffering of mankind on this earth.
As for the misconception that all humans are GOD's special ie legitimate children, some it seems definitely are not:
Deuteronomy 32:5 “They have corrupted themselves; They are not His children because of their blemish but a perverse and crooked generation.
OR
their blemish is that they are not HIS children.
Bob Carabbio
Active Member
False dichotomy. what's the supposed connection between "human political systems", and "People of the WORD"???
praise_yeshua
Active Member
That a terrible choice of words you're reading....
jeremiah1five
Active Member
17 All nations before him are as nothing;
And they are counted to him less than nothing, and vanity.
(KJV) Isaiah 40:17.
All "nations" (those NOT in covenant) "are as nothing, less than nothing, and vanity."
That's what God says. Believe it. Accept it.
Kinda puts a large crack in the theology that "God loves everyone/world" and "Jesus died for everyone" doesn't it.
God saves His covenant people Israel.
Gentiles are being saved without covenant.
The rest ("all nations") are the scraps and are worth nothing.
Be thankful you as Gentile have been saved without covenant because this is all about the grace of God and "I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy" so consider yourself if saved very, very thankful.
Wrangler
Active Member
Wow! Thanks. That was very insightful.
I suppose the "disturbing" feeling is a shadow of fear, fear of YHWH, which is the beginning of wisdom, right?
Behold
Active Member
If you understand the context, then the answer is perfectly correct.
"nations"....... think of it like this...>"the United Nations".. or "Nato"
Think of it like this... reader....... Satan showed Jesus all the nations = all the " KINGDOMS"........
See all that?
That's not the people.........the idea is....."Man's creation" =as a "nation".
Understand that.... "For God so loved the WORLD"....... is not "For God so loved the United Nations", or "the powers of the world under the control of elected leaders or dictators"....ect.
See, God became one of us, not to save Nations, .. but to save the world.
The world is this...
"Jesus came into the world to save SINNERS"..... and not the kingdoms or nations that Sinners have created by the power of the Devil, in many cases.
"nations"....... think of it like this...>"the United Nations".. or "Nato"
Think of it like this... reader....... Satan showed Jesus all the nations = all the " KINGDOMS"........
See all that?
That's not the people.........the idea is....."Man's creation" =as a "nation".
Understand that.... "For God so loved the WORLD"....... is not "For God so loved the United Nations", or "the powers of the world under the control of elected leaders or dictators"....ect.
See, God became one of us, not to save Nations, .. but to save the world.
The world is this...
"Jesus came into the world to save SINNERS"..... and not the kingdoms or nations that Sinners have created by the power of the Devil, in many cases.
jeremiah1five
Active Member
The fear mentioned in Scripture usually means "reverent respect" and not the terror you may be thinking it is.
jeremiah1five
Active Member
That would be true if Jesus as High Priest before offering sacrifice would have prayed for the "world", but He didn't.
9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
Jn 17:9.
Simply put the world is without a prayer.
Behold
Active Member
Exactly.
And lets go deeper., reader.
Let me show you what i teach my Students, so that you get the exact understanding of this verse, that scares believers.
Lets solve that nonsense....
1.) "work out your salvation with fear and trembling".
You know that one.... sure.
A.) Read it like this....."Work out the Salvation, that God has given you as , the Gift of Salvation, with awe and wonder"..
See that?
That is the verse's meaning..
2.) Its teaching, that you have salvation......and of course you do, if you are born again, and not just water baptized and religious.
Listen..
IF You are born again.... You Have received Christ who is your redemption, who is your Salvation, and you are "In Christ" and "Christ in YOU, the hope of Glory", and "Glory" is heaven.
A.) So, now having "the Gift of Salvation", you are to learn how to exist in it, according to the knowledge of God.
This means, you are to understand what it means to have become "a NEW CREATION, in Christ"... and learn to have the MIND.
That's how you "work it out".
Its by gaining = THE revelation knowledge, regarding who you have become as "THE.... righteousness..,. OF GOD..... In Christ".
Behold
Active Member
That verse is talking about the apostles.
Notice that Jesus has not died for the sin of the world yet.... so, he's not Talking about Gentiles, which concludes that He's still only dealing with the House of Israel, in your verse.
All you have to do, is just keep reading the next few verses, and it'll become clear to you, that Christ is talking about his Jewish apostles., etc.
Try it.
jeremiah1five
Active Member
We get sooo deep our voices change.
jeremiah1five
Active Member
The whole chapter Jesus Christ makes distinction between "THEM" and "the world."
He prays for "THEM", but He doesn't pray for the "world" (non-covenant.)
In other words, Christs has respect for "THEM" and no respect for the "world."
Behold
Active Member
If you just read the next few verses, you'll notice 2 things...
1st, Jesus is talking to the Jews, about the Jewish apostles, and perhaps the disciples...(Jews).
He is not taking about this...
"for God so loved the world that He gave JESUS".
And how do you know?
Its because in YOUR VERSES, Jesus has not yet been GIVEN on the Cross, to the "world".
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