Then Why Creation?

[jeremiah1five]

If you just read the next few verses, you'll notice 2 things...

OK, let me read.....

1st, Jesus is talking to the Jews, about the Jewish apostles, and perhaps the disciples...(Jews).

The whole prayer is Jesus (talking) praying to His Father.

He is not taking about this...
"for God so loved the world that He gave JESUS".

No, maybe He's not. But if you are here's the response:

In John 3 Jesus is speaking to Nicodemus and Jesus calls him a "master of Israel" and could be addressing Israel through him. But my point is what Jesus said after "God so loved..." and the "world" must be taken in context to who Jesus is referring, that is the "world/kosmos" of Israel. There's no other word He could have used in the Greek/Aramaic for there's no other word for "inhabitants" for it cannot be interpreted as "earth" or "planet." "God so loved the planet that He gave..." or "God so loved the earth that He gave..."
Ya falla?
Now, here's my point:

19 And this is the condemnation, that light [CHRIST] is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light [CHRIST], because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light [CHRIST], neither cometh to the light [CHRIST], lest his deeds should be reproved. Jn 3:19–20.

And how do you know?
Its because in YOUR VERSES, Jesus has not yet been GIVEN on the Cross, to the "world".

Jesus Christ wasn't given on the cross to the non-covenant world. He was given on the cross for the people to whom He was covenanted and promised to and for: Israel.
Jesus Christ wasn't given to the non-covenant world, He was sent to the lost sheep of the Hose of Israel, not the house of the non-covenant world.

33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel;
After those days, saith the LORD,
I will put my law in their inward parts,
And write it in their hearts;
And will be their God,
And they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying,
Know the LORD:
For they shall all know me,
From the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD:
For I will forgive their iniquity,
And I will remember their sin no more.
Jer. 31:33–34.

In this New Covenant which belongs to Israel there is no mention or Gentiles or the "world."

"God so loved [His Bride and Church Israel] that He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever [of His Bride and Church Israel] believeth in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life."

 

[civic]

Jesus prays for those in the world who will believe through them and that the works will believe God sent Him.

My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21 that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.22 I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one—23 I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete unity. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.

 

[Behold]

In this New Covenant which belongs to Israel there is no mention or Gentiles or the "world."

Edit Rude comment

You are not aware that the "church age" is the "time of the Gentiles" and that Paul is the "Apostle to the Gentiles". ???

Paul , the "apostle to the Gentiles" = wrote 13 NEW TESTAMENT Epistles...

Really.
This "apostle to the GENTILES"

Check it out. You can't miss him., unless you dont own a NT, and only use commentaries or a book of mormon, or some similar situation.

 

[Behold]

Jesus prays for those in the world who will believe through them and that the works will believe God sent Him.

My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21 that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.22 I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one—23 I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete unity. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.

Yes.

Jesus said..>"you believe in God......believe ALSO in Me".

Jesus said.>>"ALL (not just the Elect)..... = ALL (John 3:16) that believe in ME.... I GIVE UNTO THEM.... eternal Life, and they shall never go to Hell, (perish).

 

[jeremiah1five]

Do you own a NT @jeremiah1five

You never read John 3:16 ??

How about 1 John 2:2 ???

You are not aware that the "church age" is the "time of the Gentiles" and that Paul is the "Apostle to the Gentiles". ???

Paul , the "apostle to the Gentiles" = wrote 13 NEW TESTAMENT Epistles...

Really.
This "apostle to the GENTILES"

Check it out. You can't miss him., unless you dont own a NT, and only use commentaries or a book of mormon, or some similar situation.

The Church Age under the New Covenant of Jeremiah 31 is a continuation of the "Great Congregation" of the over 3 million children of Israel in the desert at the time of the Tabernacle and the worship God istitute with His Chosen people.
Since Jesus is a Jewish Messiah promised to Israel and since Jesus came TO and FOR the lost sheep of the House of Israel (same language of Jeremiah 31), and the facts that on the day of the Feast of Harvests (Pentecost) 3000 Jews were saved, and while the Temple still stood the "ism" of Judaism remained until the destruction of their Temple, and while it still stood no Times of the Gentiles could begin since it is a Jewish covenant and the Jews were the first to receive the Promised Holy Spirit as Peter said in his sermon for the next four decades.

Paul, a Jewish Christians wrote to other Jewish Christians in the various churches in Asia Minor and Rome that were founded by Jews who were visiting Jerusalem when they were saved and filled with their Holy Spirit of Promise and took Jesus and their experiences back to the Gentile lands from which they came.
Paul went first to the synagogues when he visits a city where Jewish Christians were and learned that Jews could not accept a Messiah that hung on a tree for in their Law anyone who did was cursed. They stumbled at the stumbling stone. Through their blindness he said he was going to Gentiles but not to Gentile people but their lands where the twelve tribes were scattered throughout the then-known world. As a Jewish Christian he sought out other Jewish Christians that lived in Gentile cities and towns. His letters speak of things that concerned Israel, their Law, their covenant, their religion, their prophecies, their promises from God, their history, their main characters (Abraham, Moses, Jeremiah, Hosea, etc.), and their culture and their rituals and practices at a level of knowledge that no Gentile would know about due to the middle wall partition and their following their dumb idols. Gentiles didn't attend Jewish feasts, did not worship the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, nor cared anything about the Jews. He may in a couple of places address Gentiles becoming saved and what to do with them, but his letters were written to other Jewish Christians about the effect of Israel's Messiah on Judaism and the covenants.
I think this pretty much sums it all up.
While the Temple stood the "ism" of Judaism remained as did their New Covenant until their Temple was destroyed in A.D. 70. That left Israel as the recipients of God's grace for at least forty years before Gentiles began to be saved in higher numbers after their Temple was destroyed.
Israel is the Bride and Church of God.
God made no covenant with Gentiles. They are and have been saved without covenant. But there will come a time when the Times of the Gentiles ends, and God turns His full attention back to His Bride and apple of His eye Israel and picks up where He left off when their Temple was destroyed.
After God uses Gentiles to make His Bride jealous He marries His Bride.
Israel will be at the Marriage Supper through covenant, Gentiles will be there by invitation.

 

[GeneZ]

One of the verses that I find disturbing is Isaiah 40:17
The nations of the world are worth nothing to him.
In his eyes they count for less than nothing—
mere emptiness and froth.

If the people of the word are worth nothing, then why Creation & Salvation through Christ?

One must differentiate between what the world became in the fall, and what God originally created the world to be.

That is why John 3:16 says....

For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, ​

that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."​

Note! It does not say....

For God so loves the world that he gave his one and only Son, ​

that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."​

John 3:16 says that God "loved" the world. Not, He "loves" the world.

God so loved (past tense) the world.
Loved the world as He created it to be. Loved it so much, that He wanted it back after is was lost.

That was why Jesus went to the Cross.
It was to get back the world that He loved, to restore them, and then glorify them as to make them never be able to perish.

God does not love the world as it now is!

Do not love the world or anything in the world. If anyone loves the world, love for the Father is not in them.​

1 John 2:15

 

[jeremiah1five]

One of the verses that I find disturbing is Isaiah 40:17
The nations of the world are worth nothing to him.
In his eyes they count for less than nothing—
mere emptiness and froth.

If the people of the word are worth nothing, then why Creation & Salvation through Christ?

Because the Son of God means something to the Father. And since they both own everything in creation the only thing left for the father to give the son is 'nothing.'
And to both the giving of nothing is something to them. And in this anything is possible.

 

[Complete]

One must differentiate between what the world became in the fall, and what God originally created the world to be.​

​

That is why John 3:16 says....​

​

For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, ​

that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."​

​

Note! It does not say....​

​

For God so loves the world that he gave his one and only Son, ​

that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."​

​

John 3:16 says that God "loved" the world. Not, He "loves" the world.​

​

God so loved (past tense) the world.​

Loved the world as He created it to be. Loved it so much, that He wanted it back after is was lost.​

​

That was why Jesus went to the Cross.​

It was to get back the world that He loved, to restore them, and then glorify them as to make them never be able to perish.​

​

God does not love the world as it now is!​

​

Do not love the world or anything in the world. If anyone loves the world, love for the Father is not in them.​

1 John 2:15​

'For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time
are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly,
but by reason of Him who hath subjected the same in hope,
Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption
into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit,
even we ourselves groan within ourselves,
waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.'
(Rom 8:18-23)

Hello @GeneZ,

I do not believe that the word 'loved' in this case, should be considered to be an indication that God no longer loves the world that He created, as you suggest. He created the world that it should be inhabited, and it is the inhabited world that Christ gave His life to redeem.

'The Lord is not slack concerning His promise,
as some men count slackness;
but is longsuffering to us-ward,
not willing that any should perish,
but that all should come to repentance.
(2Pe 3:9)

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[GeneZ]

'For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time
are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly,
but by reason of Him who hath subjected the same in hope,
Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption
into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit,
even we ourselves groan within ourselves,
waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.'
(Rom 8:18-23)

Hello @GeneZ,

I do not believe that the word 'loved' in this case, should be considered to be an indication that God no longer loves the world that He created, as you suggest. He created the world that it should be inhabited, and it is the inhabited world that Christ gave His life to redeem.

'The Lord is not slack concerning His promise,
as some men count slackness;
but is longsuffering to us-ward,
not willing that any should perish,
but that all should come to repentance.
(2Pe 3:9)

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

I don't think you grasped what I said...

And, careful not to be changing the Word to make it fit your preconceived concept. "Loved," is not, "loves. "

Its not complicated. So, please do not try to make it be that way.

Plain and simple. It does not say that God 'loves' the world. And, it could have if it were so.
And, add to that? Jesus tells us not to love the world, or the love of the Father is not in us.

You're mixing in emotional appeal with total disregard for what it says.
2 Peter 3:9 speaks of God getting back what he lost in the fall,
Getting back that He could love before it became fallen.
He wants to regenerate and transform us back into what He can love.
For many believers He is only able to love us on the basis we have been imputed the righteousness of Christ.
There are believers who fail to please Him otherwise.... But, He still loves them because He purchased them at a price
and knows they are to be glorified when resurrected though they fail Him now.

Its what He knows in His omniscience that allows Him to offer love to those whom He knows will turn out to be wonderful. That is, if they will accept His offer of love. He also knows who will reject His offer of love.... God does not get emotional for that reason.
God may inspire our emotions, but He is already knowing who will want to love Him.
He is fair and patiently gives everyone the needed chances to do what is right.

grace and peace .......

 

[Complete]

I don't think you grasped what I said...​

​

And, careful not to be changing the Word to make it fit your preconceived concept. "Loved," is not, "loves. "​

​

Its not complicated. So, please do not try to make it be that way.​

​

Plain and simple. It does not say that God 'loves' the world. And, it could have if it were so.​

And, add to that? Jesus tells us not to love the world, or the love of the Father is not in us.​

​

You're mixing in emotional appeal with total disregard for what it says.​

2 Peter 3:9 speaks of God getting back what he lost in the fall,​

Getting back that He could love before it became fallen.​

He wants to regenerate and transform us back into what He can love.​

For many believers He is only able to love us on the basis we have been imputed the righteousness of Christ.​

There are believers who fail to please Him otherwise.... But, He still loves them because He purchased them at a price​

and knows they are to be glorified when resurrected though they fail Him now.​

​

Its what He knows in His omniscience that allows Him to offer love to those whom He knows will turn out to be wonderful. That is, if they will accept His offer of love. He also knows who will reject His offer of love.... God does not get emotional for that reason.​

God may inspire our emotions, but He is already knowing who will want to love Him.​

He is fair and patiently gives everyone the needed chances to do what is right.​

​

grace and peace .......​

For God so loved the world,
that He gave His only begotten Son,
that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish,
but have everlasting life.
For God sent not His Son into the world to condemn the world;
but that the world through Him might be saved.
He that believeth on Him is not condemned:
but He that believeth not is condemned already,
because He hath not believed
in the name of the only begotten Son of God.'
(Joh 3:16-18)

Hello @GeneZ,

With respect the word, 'loved', is used instead of, 'loves', because it is speaking retrospectively of God's love for the world, that prompted the giving of His only Son, that whosoever believes in Him may be saved. It is a grammatical observation on my part, and not the emotional response that you claim it to be.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[GeneZ]

For God so loved the world,
that He gave His only begotten Son,
that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish,
but have everlasting life.
For God sent not His Son into the world to condemn the world;
but that the world through Him might be saved.
He that believeth on Him is not condemned:
but He that believeth not is condemned already,
because He hath not believed
in the name of the only begotten Son of God.'
(Joh 3:16-18)

Hello @GeneZ,

With respect the word, 'loved', is used instead of, 'loves', because it is speaking retrospectively of God's love for the world, that prompted the giving of His only Son, that whosoever believes in Him may be saved. It is a grammatical observation on my part, and not the emotional response that you claim it to be.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

Keep it simple, Chris.

Does God love the world at present?

​

Do not love the world or anything in the world. ​

If anyone loves the world, love for the Father is not in them."​

​

1 John 2:15​

 

[Complete]

Keep it simple, Chris.

Does God love the world at present?

​

Do not love the world or anything in the world. ​

If anyone loves the world, love for the Father is not in them."​

​

1 John 2:15​

'The Lord is not slack concerning His promise,
as some men count slackness;
but is longsuffering to us-ward,
not willing that any should perish,
but that all should come to repentance.'
(2Pet.3:9 )

Hello @GeneZ,

God does not change. He loves the inhabitants of this earth that He created, and desires that none should perish, that is why we continue to await the Lord's coming.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[GeneZ]

'The Lord is not slack concerning His promise,
as some men count slackness;
but is longsuffering to us-ward,
not willing that any should perish,
but that all should come to repentance.'
(2Pet.3:9 )

Hello @GeneZ,

God does not change. He loves the inhabitants of this earth that He created, and desires that none should perish, that is why we continue to await the Lord's coming.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

How does that answer what I said?

The fact that He desires that none perish does not mean He loves the world.
Because... many will perish.

Make up your mind.

 

[Brakelite]

KJV Romans 5:8
8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
Christ loved sinners so much that He died for them, and determined to change them. He died for you 2000 years ago, and He died for those who would finally choose to reject Him. And He knew they would reject Him but lived them anyway.
While you may want to focus on the "love not the world" text, don't forget He also said "love your enemies".