The Unitarian challenge for those who deny Jesus is Almighty God

F

Fred

Well-known member

This thread is from what I discussed in the link above. Unfortunately, the one to whom I was addressing evaded this issue, so if any other Unitarian (those who deny the Lord Jesus is Almighty God) can defend their belief I would be interested in seeing to whom they apply the following passages to.

The Father or the Lord Jesus?
Matthew 10:28 (Him)

John 7:18 (He is true, and there is no unrighteousness in Him)

Acts 1:24 (Lord)
Acts 2:20 (Lord)
Acts 2:21 (Lord)
Acts 2:25 (Lord)
Acts 2:47 (Lord)
Acts 5:41 (Name)
Acts 7:60 (Lord)
Acts 8:22 (Lord
Acts 8:24 (Lord)
Acts 9:1 (Lord)
Acts 9:28 (Lord)
Acts 9:31 (Lord)
Acts 9:35 (Lord)
Acts 9:42 (Lord)
Acts 10:14 (Lord)
Acts 10:33 (Lord)
Acts 11:21 (Lord X2)
Acts 11:23 (Lord)
Acts 11:24 (Lord)
Acts 13:2 (Lord)
Acts 14:3 (Lord)
Acts 14:23 (Lord)
Acts 15:40 (Lord)
Acts 16:14 (Lord)
Acts 21:14 (Lord)

Romans 8:27 (He who searches the hearts)
Romans 10:11 (Him)
Romans 10:12 (Him)
Romans 10:13 (Lord)
Romans 10:14 (Him X2)
Romans 12:11 (Lord)

1 Corinthians 1:31 (Lord)
1 Corinthians 2:16 (Lord)
1 Corinthians 4:4 (Lord)
1 Corinthians 4:5 (Lord)
1 Corinthians 4:19 (Lord)
1 Corinthians 6:17 (Lord)
1 Corinthians 10:9 (Lord)
1 Corinthians 10:21 (Lord X2)
1 Corinthians 10:22 (Lord)
1 Corinthians 10:26 (Lord)
1 Corinthians 11:32 (Lord)
1 Corinthians 14:37 (Lord's)
1 Corinthians 15:58 (Lord)
1 Corinthians 16:7 (Lord)

2 Corinthians 3:16 (Lord)
2 Corinthians 3:17 (Lord X2)
2 Corinthians 3:18 (Lord X 2)
2 Corinthians 5:11 (Lord)
2 Corinthians 8:5 (Lord)
2 Corinthians 8:19 (Lord)
2 Corinthians 8:21 (Lord)
2 Corinthians 10:8 (Lord)
2 Corinthians 10:17 (Lord)
2 Corinthians 10:18 (Lord)
2 Corinthians 12:1 (Lord)
2 Corinthians 12:8 (Lord)
2 Corinthians 13:10 (Lord)

Galatians 2:8 (He)

Ephesians 2:21 (Lord)
Ephesians 6:9 (Master)
Ephesians 6:10 (Lord)

Colossians 1:10 (Lord)
Colossians 1:22 (Him)
Colossians 1:29 (His)
Colossians 3:22 (Lord)
Colossians 4:1 (Master)

1 Thessalonians 4:6 (Lord)
1 Thessalonians 5:24 (He X2)
1 Thessalonians 5:27 (Lord)

2 Thessalonians 3:1 (Lord)
2 Thessalonians 3:3 (Lord)
2 Thessalonians 3:4 (Lord)
2 Thessalonians 3:5 (Lord)
2 Thessalonians 3:16 (Lord X2)

1 Timothy 1:14 (Lord)
1 Timothy 6:15 (Lord)

2 Timothy 1:16 (Lord)
2 Timothy 1:18 (Lord X2)
2 Timothy 2:7 (Lord)
2 Timothy 2:11 (Him X2)
2 Timothy 2:12 (Him X2; He)
2 Timothy 2:13 (He X2; Himself)
2 Timothy 2:19 (Lord X2)
2 Timothy 2:21 (Master)
2 Timothy 2:22 (Lord)
2 Timothy 2:24 (Lord)
2 Timothy 3:11 (Lord)
2 Timothy 4:8 (Lord)
2 Timothy 4:14 (Lord)
2 Timothy 4:17 (Lord)
2 Timothy 4:18 (Lord)

Hebrews 1:10 (Lord)
Hebrews 10:37 (He)
Hebrews 12:14 (Lord)

James 2:7 (Name)
James 4:10 (Lord)
James 4:12 (Lawgiver and Judge)
James 4:15 (Lord)
James 5:7 (Lord)
James 5:8 (Lord)
James 5:9 (Judge)
James 5:10 (Lord)
James 5:11 (Lord's; Lord)
James 5:14 (Lord)
James 5:15 (Lord)

1 Peter 2:25 (Shepherd and Guardian)
1 Peter 3:12 (Lord X2)
1 Peter 3:15 (Lord)
1 Peter 4:5 (Him)

2 Peter 2:1 (Master)
2 Peter 2:9 (Lord)
2 Peter 2:11 (Lord)
2 Peter 3:8 (Lord)
2 Peter 3:9 (Lord)
2 Peter 3:10 (Lord)
2 Peter 3:14 (Him)
2 Peter 3:15 (Lord)

1 John 2:3 (Him; His)
1 John 2:4 (Him; His)
1 John 2:5 (His; Him)
1 John 2:6 (Him; He)
1 John 2:8 (Him)
1 John 2:12 (His)
1 John 2:13 (Him)
1 John 2:14 (Him)
1 John 2:20 (Holy One)
1 John 2:25 (He)
1 John 2:27 (Him; His; Him)
1 John 2:28 (Him; He; Him; His)
1 John 2:29 (He; Him)
1 John 3:2 (He; Him X2; He)
1 John 3:3 (Him; He)
1 John 3:5 (He; Him)
1 John 3:6 (Him X3)
1 John 3:7 (He)
1 John 3:24 (His; Him; He X3)
1 John 4:4 (He)
1 John 4:13 (Him; He X2; His)
1 John 4:17 (He)
1 John 4:19 (He)
1 John 4:21 (Him)
1 John 5:14 (Him; His; He)
1 John 5:15 (He; Him)
1 John 5:20 (Him X2; He)

3 John 7 (Name)

Jude 4 (Master; Lord)
Jude 5 (Lord)
Jude 14 (Lord)

Revelation 1:6 (Him)
Revelation 6:10 (Master)
Revelation 11:15 (He)
Revelation 14:13 (Lord)
Revelation 18:4 (My)
Revelation 20:6 (Him)
Revelation 22:3 (His; Him)
Revelation 22:4 (His; His)
Revelation 22:12 (To whom do the pronouns refer to?)
Revelation 22:13 (To whom do the appellations refer to?)
 
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dizerner said:
What point are you bringing out here,
Click to expand...

I've noticed when reading the New Testament that in several different books by different authors it seems they are purposefully ambiguous as to whom they are referring to when discussing the Father and the Son. A few instances could be dismissed, but I've noticed this is the situation in many passages.To me, they all believed that Jesus is God, so strictly differentiating between the Father and the Son was not always a concern for them.

dizerner said:
I can be a bit dense at times.
Click to expand...

We are all at different stages in the process of learning.
 
Fred said:
I've noticed when reading the New Testament that in several different books by different authors it seems they are purposefully ambiguous as to whom they are referring to when discussing the Father and the Son. A few instances could be dismissed, but I've noticed this is the situation in many passages.To me, they all believed that Jesus is God, so strictly differentiating between the Father and the Son was not always a concern for them.



We are all at different stages in the process of learning.
Click to expand...
Yes and the word of the Lord ( Jesus ) in Acts is synonymous with the word of God in Acts. Its why Paul can say let the word of Christ richly dwell in you. :)
 
dizerner said:
I would imagine most would be the Father?
Click to expand...

Matthew 10:28
Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Perhaps most might say the "Him" we are to fear refers to the Father in Matthew 10:28, but notice how the Him can encompass the Lord Jesus in that Matthew presents the Lord Jesus as teaching that He (Jesus) is the Judge of the final destiny of those in Matthew 25 (cf. v. 41) - it is in reference to Him one must properly fear.
 
Fred said:
Matthew 10:28
Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Perhaps most might say the "Him" we are to fear refers to the Father in Matthew 10:28, but notice how the Him can encompass the Lord Jesus in that Matthew presents the Lord Jesus as teaching that He (Jesus) is the Judge of the final destiny of those in Matthew 25 (cf. v. 41) - it is in reference to Him one must properly fear.
Click to expand...
Yet we know Jesus is going to be the judge if both the living and the dead . All judgement has been given to the Son.
 
It's been over a week and not one person who denies the Lord Jesus is Almighty God is able to distinguish between their creator and creature-jesus in the passages in the OP. This should be quite easy for them to do, but they refuse to. I think I know why.

Here's one more for the list.

2 Timothy 1:12
For this reason I also suffer these things, but I am not ashamed; for I know whom I have believed and I am convinced that He is able to guard what I have entrusted to Him until that day.
 
dizerner said:
I would imagine most would be the Father?
Click to expand...

As of now the only Unitarians I know of in which I can verify to whom the majority of passages are in reference to are the Jehovah's Witnesses.

The problem is (and it is a massive problem at that) with quite a few of the passages they have gone back and forth as to whether or not the Father is being referred to or if is in reference to the Lord Jesus. In fact, they often have switched back and forth several times - Romans 10:11 being their most confusing example. Some of the passages I am just not sure to whom they say it is in reference to. I searched through much (certainly not all) of their material and I still don't know if they think it refers to the Father or to the Lord Jesus.
 
Fred said:
The problem is (and it is a massive problem at that) with quite a few of the passages they have gone back and forth as to whether or not the Father is being referred to or if is in reference to the Lord Jesus. In fact, they often have switched back and forth several times - Romans 10:11 being their most confusing example. Some of the passages I am just not sure to whom they say it is in reference to. I searched through much (certainly not all) of their material and I still don't know if they think it refers to the Father or to the Lord Jesus.
Click to expand...

Very interesting.

Seems hypocritical when I've had many demand I go through every reference to God and say which of the Trinity it refers to.
 
It's been almost a month and not one person who denies the Lord Jesus is God is able to differentiate between their creator and their creature-jesus.
 
Fred said:
The problem is (and it is a massive problem at that) with quite a few of the passages they have gone back and forth as to whether or not the Father is being referred to or if is in reference to the Lord Jesus. In fact, they often have switched back and forth several times - Romans 10:11 being their most confusing example.
Click to expand...
"That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth The Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine​
heart that God hath raised Him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart​
man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.​
​
For The Scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on Him shall not be ashamed.​
​
For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for The Same Lord​
over all is rich unto all that call upon Him." (Romans 10:9-11)​

Seems abundantly clear to me, but then I don't call The Blessed Teacher ( The Holy Spirit ),
a force or a power either.

Why The Triune GodHead Is Correct! Amen.
 
Grace ambassador said:
"That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth The Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine​
heart that God hath raised Him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart​
man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.​
​
For The Scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on Him shall not be ashamed.​
​
For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for The Same Lord​
over all is rich unto all that call upon Him."​
Click to expand...

See here for their confusion concerning Romans 10:11

Thanks for also quoting Romans 10:12, because the JW's affirm they don't know to whom the "Lord" refers to.
Romans Study Notes—Chapter 10 New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures (Study Edition): "The identity of the one referred to as “Lord” (Kyʹri·os) in this verse cannot be established with certainty from the context..."

I will admit that at least the JW's have at least gone on record with many of the passages. It is true that they have gone back and forth numerous times with quite a few of them. However, I have noticed that with many Unitarians I have encountered they won't man up and make clear to whom is being referred to. It's this childish guessing game of hide and seek they employ. It's really pathetic.
 
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civic said:
Yes and the word of the Lord ( Jesus ) in Acts is synonymous with the word of God in Acts. Its why Paul can say let the word of Christ richly dwell in you. :)
Click to expand...
is not word of the Lord ( Jesus ) in Acts is synonymous with the word of God in Acts, is not this the same ONE PERSON? Listen, Romans 8:9 "But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his."

is these two separate "Spirits" and notice the "THE" before each Spirit.

101G.
 
Fred said:
To me, they all believed that Jesus is God
Click to expand...
Proof this is not so is that such a statement is not explicitly stated one time.

This fact is the most significant to the trinitarian cause; there is no trinity verse in all of 66 books. Not one time is God defined as the trinitarians allege.

By contrast , who God is - that is NOT Jesus - is stated explicitly. In the Bible, there is only one true God (John 17:3), Jesus’ God (John 20:17, Rev 3:12), whose eternal name is YHWH (Ex 3:15) - who we relate to as Father (Eph 1:2).
 
Fred said:
It's been almost a month and not one person who denies the Lord Jesus is God is able to differentiate between their creator and their creature-jesus.
Click to expand...
You ask the biblically impossible. :) Since He is clearly the creator they are stuck between a rock and a hard place.
 
civic said:
You ask the biblically impossible. :) Since He is clearly the creator they are stuck between a rock and a hard place.
Click to expand...

This is why Wrangler posted here, but dodged doing what was asked from the OP.
Those who deny the Lord Jesus is God know it is going to be a disaster for them, so they just run away instead.
 
101G said:
well now is not your CREATOR, and the Lord Jesus the same one person? yes or No.

101G.
Click to expand...
@Fred so, we can take this frown as you're IGNORANT to the TRUTH? thought so. let's see, if the Lord Jesus is the LORD JESUS.
Hebrews 1:10 "And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:"

Now this, Zechariah 12:1 "The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him."

so Fred, tell us who Laid the foundation of the Earth? was is ONE person called the Lord by title, or was it another separate and distinct person called the "LORD" by title? which one........ will be looking for your answer.

101G.
 

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