The Unconditional Election Debate: An Universalist Perspective
- Thread starter Pancho Frijoles
- Start date
Sorry, you can deal with over a dozen verses with one
You answered no questions at all
Scripture clearly shows One must believe to be regenerated
John 7:38–39 (NASB 95) — 38 He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, ‘From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water.’ ” 39 But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.
Did they not believe before receiving the Spirit?
Ephesians 1:13 (NASB 95) — 13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,
Were they not sealed with the Holy Spirit after believing?
Ephesians 3:16–17 (NASB 95) — 16 that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with power through His Spirit in the inner man, 17 so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; and that you, being rooted and grounded in love,
Is it not Christ dwelling in your faith through faith?
Galatians 3:2 (NASB 95) — 2 This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?
Does the text not speak of receiving the Spirit by hearing with faith?
Galatians 3:5 (NASB 95) — 5 So then, does He who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?
Galatians 3:14 (NASB 95) — 14 in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
Is the promise of the Spirit not fulfilled by having faith?
Acts 11:15–17 (NASB 95) — 15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell upon them just as He did upon us at the beginning. 16 And I remembered the word of the Lord, how He used to say, ‘John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’ 17 Therefore if God gave to them the same gift as He gave to us also after believing in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could stand in God’s way?”
Was the gift of the Spirit not after believing?
Acts 15:7–8 (NASB 95) — 7 After there had been much debate, Peter stood up and said to them, “Brethren, you know that in the early days God made a choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles would hear the word of the gospel and believe. 8 And God, who knows the heart, testified to them giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He also did to us;
Believe to be made a child of God
John 1:12 (NASB 95) — 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,
be Born again through faith in the word of God.
1 Pet 1:23 for you have been born again not of seed which is perishable but imperishable, that is, through the living and enduring word of God.
1 John 5:4–5For whatever is born of God overcomes the world; and this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith. Who is the one who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?
Finally God is pleased when men believe
Heb 11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him.
When they believe they are regenerated, as multiple verses show, and if they do not first believe, they cannot be regenerated.
John 3:36 (NASB 95) — 36 He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”
John 3:18 The one who believes in him is not judged, but the one who does not believe has already been judged, because he has not believed in the name of the one and only Son of God.
Mark 16:16 The one who believes and is baptized will be saved, but the one who refuses to believe will be condemned.
John 8:24 Thus I said to you that you will die in your sins. For if you do not believe that I am he, you will die in your sins.”
1 John 5:10–13 (The one who believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself. The one who does not believe God has made him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has testified concerning his Son.) And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. The one who has the Son has the life; the one who does not have the Son of God does not have the life. These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, in order that you may know that you have eternal life.
John 5:40 (ESV) — 40 yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life.
And when one believes one is no longer in the flesh and pleases God.
Once again
Heb 11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him.
Men must clearly have faith before they please God
God is pleased to save those who believe
1 Cor 1:21 For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.
And God is pleased when men repent
Ezek 18:23 Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign Lord. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live?
Luke 15:7I tell you that in the same way there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who do not need to repent.
In the flesh means controlled by the flesh
It does not mean one with a body of flesh.
brightfame52
Active Member
Doesnt matter if you round up two dozen verses, Rom 8:8 stands unrefuted.
FreeInChrist
Active Member
When in a persons life does God make them one of the Elect? At birth, Before birth (no... cause then they would not be born in sin) , When they come of age... (whatever that mean) or maybe right before death?
That is the weakest argument I have ever seen. One verse cannot be understood correctly when it is contrary to a multiplicity of verses
As I noted
Sorry, you can deal with over a dozen verses with one
You answered no questions at all
Scripture clearly shows One must believe to be regenerated
John 7:38–39 (NASB 95) — 38 He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, ‘From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water.’ ” 39 But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.
Did they not believe before receiving the Spirit?
You failed to answer
Ephesians 1:13 (NASB 95) — 13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,
Were they not sealed with the Holy Spirit after believing?
You failed to answer
Ephesians 3:16–17 (NASB 95) — 16 that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with power through His Spirit in the inner man, 17 so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; and that you, being rooted and grounded in love,
Is it not Christ dwelling in you through faith?
You failed to answer
Galatians 3:2 (NASB 95) — 2 This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?
Does the text not speak of receiving the Spirit by hearing with faith?
You failed to answer
Galatians 3:5 (NASB 95) — 5 So then, does He who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?
Galatians 3:14 (NASB 95) — 14 in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
Is the promise of the Spirit not fulfilled by having faith?
You failed to answer
Acts 11:15–17 (NASB 95) — 15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell upon them just as He did upon us at the beginning. 16 And I remembered the word of the Lord, how He used to say, ‘John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’ 17 Therefore if God gave to them the same gift as He gave to us also after believing in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could stand in God’s way?”
Was the gift of the Spirit not after believing?
Again You failed to answer
Acts 15:7–8 (NASB 95) — 7 After there had been much debate, Peter stood up and said to them, “Brethren, you know that in the early days God made a choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles would hear the word of the gospel and believe. 8 And God, who knows the heart, testified to them giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He also did to us;
Believe to be made a child of God
Still not a single answer from you
John 1:12 (NASB 95) — 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,
be Born again through faith in the word of God?
You never address
1 Pet 1:23 for you have been born again not of seed which is perishable but imperishable, that is, through the living and enduring word of God.
time and time again
1 John 5:4–5For whatever is born of God overcomes the world; and this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith. Who is the one who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?
Finally God is pleased when men believe
Heb 11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him.
When is God pleased with men according to the text?
If he is irresistibly determining such belief why is he pleased with the believer?
When they believe they are regenerated, as multiple verses show, and if they do not first believe, they cannot be regenerated.
Yet another refutation of your theology you continue to ignore
John 3:36 (NASB 95) — 36 He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”
John 3:18 The one who believes in him is not judged, but the one who does not believe has already been judged, because he has not believed in the name of the one and only Son of God.
Mark 16:16 The one who believes and is baptized will be saved, but the one who refuses to believe will be condemned.
John 8:24 Thus I said to you that you will die in your sins. For if you do not believe that I am he, you will die in your sins.”
1 John 5:10–13 (The one who believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself. The one who does not believe God has made him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has testified concerning his Son.) And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. The one who has the Son has the life; the one who does not have the Son of God does not have the life. These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, in order that you may know that you have eternal life.
John 5:40 (ESV) — 40 yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life.
And when one believes one is no longer in the flesh and pleases God.
Once again
Heb 11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him.
Men must clearly have faith before they please God
God is pleased to save those who believe
1 Cor 1:21 For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.
And God is pleased when men repent
Ezek 18:23 Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign Lord. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live?
Luke 15:7I tell you that in the same way there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who do not need to repent.
In the flesh means controlled by the flesh
It does not mean one with a body of flesh.
synergy
Active Member
Another massive failure on your part to acknowledge Paul's audience. His audience is Christian and any Christian (or non-Christian) who is in the flesh cannot please God.
In what way does this verse support the heresy called Calvinism?
brightfame52
Active Member
Huh ? I dont know what you talking about.
brightfame52
Active Member
Yet you cant refute it. As long as a person is unregenerate, having not the Spirit, they are in the flesh and cant please God Period ! Rom 8:8
brightfame52
Active Member
Okay so that means the non believer who is unregenerate and in the flesh cant please God. So how in the world will they be able to believe in Christ while in the flesh ? They cant, because they which are in the flesh cannot please God Rom 8:8 So what you just said was a waste of time
FreeInChrist
Active Member
Your whole purpose is to be one of the elect, right?
When did you become one of the elect?
brightfame52
Active Member
I dont know what you talking about
Doug Brents
Active Member
If you are one of the elect, when did you become "elect"?
brightfame52
Active Member
You will find out on Judgment day, hows that ?
Doug Brents
Active Member
Of course I will (and I fear for your soul on that day).
But his question remains, when were you added to the elect?
brightfame52
Active Member
See ya at the Judgment
FreeInChrist
Active Member
You dont know. WOW. Want me to tell you what happened when I first got the Holy Spirit in me to live?
Or What the Holy Spirit did once I kind of backslid for a season?
Or when I knew that Jesus had died for me (and others)?
And why my church would not permit Holy Communion to be served until you took the classes to learn
all about that death... and His life.... and all.
And see @brightfame52 we free will believers know this stuff throughout our lives. We do not need to wait for Judgement day to learn any of it where you predestined people stand a very good chance of hearing "Ya got it wrong" because it should be elementary basic knowledge when you walk with God and want to please him.
UH OH... I forgot... You cannot want to please God can you.... Isn't that a work.
brightfame52
Active Member
Im not asking myself.
Doug Brents
Active Member
No, I don't think I will. I will be too busy looking at God and reveling in the presence of my Groom to even think about looking for you. But I pray now that you come to a saving knowledge of Him and who He really is. If you don't, I fear for your soul.
brightfame52
Active Member
See ya at the Judgment
brightfame52
Active Member
Good short clip on unconditional election
Similar threads
