brightfame52
Active Member
Actually yours is
The Unconditional Election Debate: An Universalist Perspective
- Thread starter Pancho Frijoles
- Start date
brightfame52
Active Member
Its presupposed due to the definite fact them that are in the flesh [unregenerate w/o the Spirit] cannot please God Rom 8:8 is a definite fact my friend
brightfame52
Active Member
Sure you can, regeneration occurs when one is dead in sin and an enemy against God. Eph 2:5
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)
brightfame52
Active Member
No Im not. Them who are in the flesh are the unregenerate, who have not the Spirit.
FreeInChrist
Active Member
You cherry pick exactly what benefits you and leave on the table further explanation.
John Calvin must be so proud of you.
brightfame52
Active Member
I highlight whats in the text
FreeInChrist
Active Member
2 verses do not a chapter make
brightfame52
Active Member
Who said that ?
FreeInChrist
Active Member
I gave you the meaning of the entire chapiter #8 and you still flounder round with Romans 8:7-8
Romans 8 has 39 verses, and you stopped short of verse 9 which says.
"However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him."
Setting the Scene for Romans 8:7-9
The scene in Romans 8:7-9 takes place in a small, dimly lit room in the city of Rome. The room is filled with a diverse group of individuals gathered for a Bible study session. Among them are Marcus, a Roman centurion who had recently converted to Christianity after witnessing the miracles of Jesus, Lydia, a wealthy merchant from Thyatira who had opened her home to the group, and Priscilla and Aquila, a couple who were skilled tentmakers and fervent followers of Christ.The group had come together through various paths – some had heard the teachings of Paul, while others had been introduced to the faith by friends or family members. As they sat in a circle on cushions spread across the floor, the flickering light of oil lamps casting shadows on the walls, they eagerly listened as one of the elders read from a scroll containing the epistle of Paul to the Romans. The words of Romans chapter 8 resonated deeply with them, speaking to their struggles and reaffirming their faith in Christ.
As they discussed and debated the meaning of the verses, their voices filled the room with a sense of camaraderie and shared purpose. Despite the challenges and persecution they faced as followers of Jesus in the Roman Empire, in that moment, surrounded by fellow believers, they found strength and encouragement in their shared belief in the transformative power of the gospel.
What is Romans 8:7-9 about?
This verse from the Bible emphasizes the importance of living a life aligned with faith and the Spirit of God, rather than being driven by worldly desires and impulses. It points out that those who are solely focused on satisfying their own physical needs and desires are not capable of pleasing God. Believers who are guided by the Holy Spirit are able to live in a way that is pleasing to God. Think of the analogy of two paths diverging in different directions – one leading to fulfilling the desires of the flesh, and the other leading to spiritual nourishment and growth. It prompts us to reflect on our own actions and motivations – are we being controlled by our own selfish desires, or are we allowing the Spirit to guide us towards a life that honors God? It challenges us to examine our priorities and make intentional choices to live in a way that is in line with our faith.You are a cherry picker.... You use what fits your beliefs and then say..... "but it is in the bible" when in fact it is used out of context.
brightfame52
Active Member
I dont go by what you gave, but what I gave. Rom 8:7-8 states that they which are in the flesh cant please God, I go by that. I know what you talking about, it doesnt annul the fact
Only after they believe
Without faith you cannot receive the Spirit who regenerates
Gal 3:2 This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?
Galatians 3:5 So then, does He who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?
Gal 3:14 in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
Eph 1:13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,
Acts 11:15–17 And as I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell upon them just as He did upon us at the beginning. And I remembered the word of the Lord, how He used to say, ‘John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’ Therefore if God gave to them the same gift as He gave to us also after believing in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could stand in God’s way?”
John 7:38–39 He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, ‘From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water.’ ” But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.
Acts 2:38 Peter said to them, “Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Acts 15:7–9 (NASB 95) — 7 After there had been much debate, Peter stood up and said to them, “Brethren, you know that in the early days God made a choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles would hear the word of the gospel and believe. 8 And God, who knows the heart, testified to them giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He also did to us; 9 and He made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith.
Acts 5:32 (NASB 95) — 32 And we are witnesses of these things; and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey Him.”
Acts 8:14–17Now when the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent them Peter and John, who came down and prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit. For He had not yet fallen upon any of them; they had simply been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Then they began laying their hands on them, and they were receiving the Holy Spirit.
Rom 10:9–10that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.
Sorry there is no evidence of that
By faith men are saved
Ephesians 2:8 (NASB 95) — 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
All are not fleshly controlled
And according to scripture
Man may repent
Jeremiah 31:18-19
I have surely heard Ephraim’s moaning: ‘You disciplined me severely, like an untrained calf. Restore me, that I may return, for You are the LORD my God. / After I returned, I repented; and after I was instructed, I struck my thigh in grief. I was ashamed and humiliated because I bore the disgrace of my youth.’
Revelation 2:21–22 (LEB) — 21 And I have given her time in order to repent, and she did not want to repent from her sexual immorality. 22 Behold, I am throwing her into a sickbed and those who committed adultery with her into great affliction, unless they repent from her deeds.
Luke 11:32 (LEB) — 32 The people of Nineveh will stand up at the judgment with this generation and condemn it, because they repented at the proclamation of Jonah, and behold, something greater than Jonah is here!
Ezekiel 18:30–32 (LEB) — 30 “Therefore I will judge you, house of Israel, each one according to his ways,” declares the Lord Yahweh. “Repent and turn around from all of your transgression, and it will not be as a stumbling block of iniquity to you.
Draw near to God
James 4:8-10
Draw near to God, and He will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you double-minded. / Grieve, mourn, and weep. Turn your laughter to mourning, and your joy to gloom. / Humble yourselves before the Lord, and He will exalt you.
return to the Lord
Isa 55:6–7Seek Yahweh while he lets himself be found; call him while he is near. Let the wicked forsake his way, and the man of sin his thoughts. And let him return to Yahweh, that he may take pity on him, and to our God, for he will forgive manifold.
Jeremiah 3:12–14 (LEB) — 12 Go, and proclaim these words toward the north, and say, ‘Return, apostate Israel,’ declares Yahweh. ‘I will not cause my anger to fall on you. For I am loyal,’ declares Yahweh. ‘I will not be angry forever. 13 Only acknowledge your guilt, that against Yahweh your God you have rebelled, and have scattered your ways to the strangers under every leafy tree, and you have not obeyed my voice,’ declares Yahweh.” 14 “Return, apostate children,” declares Yahweh. “For I am your master, and I will take you one from a city and two from a clan, and I will bring you to Zion.
Choose to serve God
Joshua 24:15–22 (LEB) — 15 But if it is bad in your eyes to serve Yahweh, choose for yourselves today whom you want to serve, whether it is the gods that your ancestors served beyond the river, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you are living; but as for me and my household, we will serve Yahweh.” 16 And the people answered and said, “Far be it from us that we would forsake Yahweh to serve other gods, 17 for Yahweh our God brought us and our ancestors from the land of Egypt, from the house of slavery, and did these great signs before our eyes. He protected us along the entire way that we went, and among all the peoples through whose midst we passed. 18 And Yahweh drove out all the people before us, the Amorites who live in the land. We will serve Yahweh, for he is our God.” 19 But Joshua said to the people, “You cannot serve Yahweh, for he is a holy and jealous God; he will not forgive your transgressions or your sins. 20 If you forsake Yahweh and serve foreign gods, he will turn and bring disaster to you; he will destroy you after he has done good to you.” 21 And the people said to Joshua, “No, we will serve Yahweh.” 22 And Joshua said to the people, “You are witnesses against yourselves that you have chosen for yourselves to serve Yahweh.” And they said, “We are witnesses.”
Choose life
Deuteronomy 30:11–20 (LEB) — 11 “For this commandment that I am commanding you today is not too wonderful for you, and it is not too far from you. 12 It is not in the heavens so that you might say, ‘Who will go up for us to the heavens and get it for us and cause us to hear it, so that we may do it?’ 13 And it is not beyond the sea, so that you might say, ‘Who will cross for us to the other side of the sea and take it for us and cause us to hear it, so that we may do it?’ 14 But the word is very near you, even in your mouth and in your heart, so that you may do it. 15 “See, I am setting before you today life and prosperity and death and disaster; 16 what I am commanding you today is to love Yahweh your God by going in his ways and by keeping his commandments and his statutes and his regulations, and then you will live, and you will become numerous, and Yahweh your God will bless you in the land where you are going. 17 However, if your heart turns aside and you do not listen and you are lured away and you bow down to other gods and you serve them, 18 I declare to you today that you will certainly perish; you will not extend your time on the land that you are crossing the Jordan to go there to take possession of it. 19 I invoke as a witness against you today the heaven and the earth: life and death I have set before you, blessing and curse. So choose life, so that you may live, you and your offspring, 20 by loving Yahweh your God by listening to his voice and by clinging to him, for he is your life and the length of your days in order for you to live on the land that Yahweh swore to your ancestors, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give to them.”
Isaiah 55:3 (LEB) — 3 Extend your ear, and come to me! Listen so that your soul may live, and I will make an everlasting covenant with you, the enduring proofs of the mercies shown to David.
Those without faith are not regenered/made alive.
Those who do not believe will not see life
John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
John 3:18 The one who believes in him is not judged, but the one who does not believe has already been judged, because he has not believed in the name of the one and only Son of God.
Mark 16:16 The one who believes and is baptized will be saved, but the one who refuses to believe will be condemned.
John 8:24 Thus I said to you that you will die in your sins. For if you do not believe that I am he, you will die in your sins.”
1 John 5:12 The one who has the Son has the life; the one who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.
1 John 5:10–13 (The one who believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself. The one who does not believe God has made him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has testified concerning his Son.) And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. The one who has the Son has the life; the one who does not have the Son of God does not have the life. These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, in order that you may know that you have eternal life.
So scripture refutes Calvinism’s belief that unbelievers may be given life so that they may believe
Sorry there is just too much scripture contrary to your views
Your understanding is contrary to much scripture
Yes and even a Calvinist rejects your understanding
Did you read the scripture
Not all are controlled by fleshly desire?
Gen 6:9 These are the generations of Noah. Noah was a righteous man, without defect in his generations. Noah walked with God.
Gen 7:1 Then Yahweh said to Noah, “Go—you and all your household—into the ark, for I have seen you are righteous before me in this generation.
Job 1:1 There was a man in the land of Uz whose name was Job. That man was blameless and upright and God-fearing and turning away from evil.
Luke 1:6 And they were both righteous in the sight of God, living blamelessly in all the commandments and regulations of the Lord.
Gen 15:6 And he believed in Yahweh, and he reckoned it to him as righteousness.
Hab 2:4 Look! His spirit within him is puffed up; it is not upright. But the righteous shall live by his faithfulness.
Rom 4:3 For what does the scripture say? “And Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him for righteousness.”
James 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “And Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him for righteousness,” and he was called God’s friend.
Ps 1:6 for Yahweh knows the way of the righteous, but the way of the wicked will perish.
Prov 10:25 With the passing of the tempest, there is no wickedness, but the righteous have a foundation forever.
Psalm 34:15–22 (LEB) — 15 The eyes of Yahweh are toward the righteous, and his ears toward their cry for help. 16 The face of Yahweh is against evildoers, to cut off the remembrance of them from the earth. 17 They cry out and Yahweh hears and delivers them from all of their troubles. 18 Yahweh is near to those who are heartbroken and saves those who are crushed in spirit. 19 Many are the distresses of the righteous, but Yahweh delivers him out of them all. 20 He protects all his bones; not one of them is broken. 21 Evil will slay the wicked, and those who hate the righteous will incur guilt. 22 Yahweh redeems the life of his servants, and none who take refuge in him will incur guilt.
Mal 3:18 You will return and see the difference between the righteous and the wicked, between the one who serves God and the one who does not serve him.
Ps 11:5 Yahweh tests the righteous, but the wicked and the lover of violence his soul hates.
Prov 3:33The curse of Yahweh is on the house of the wicked, and the abode of the righteous ones he blesses.
The carnal mind. This is the same expression as occurs in ver. 6 (τὸ φρόνημα τῆς σαρκός). It does not mean the mind itself, the intellect, or the will; it does not suppose that the mind or soul is physically depraved, or opposed to God; but it means that the minding of the things of the flesh, giving to them supreme attention, is hostility against God; and involves the sinner in a controversy with him, and hence leads to death and woe. This passage should not be alleged in proof that the soul is physically depraved, but merely that where there is a supreme regard to the flesh there is hostility to God. It does not directly prove the doctrine of universal depravity; but it proves only that where such attention exists to the corrupt desires of the soul, there is hostility to God. It is indeed implied that that supreme regard to the flesh exists every where by nature, but this is not expressly affirmed. For the object of the apostle here is not to teach the doctrine of depravity, but to show that where such depravity in fact exists, it involves the sinner in a fearful controversy with God.<sup>[1]</sup>
<sup>[1]</sup> Albert Barnes, Notes on the New Testament: Romans (ed. Robert Frew; London: Blackie & Son, 1884–1885), 173.
brightfame52
Active Member
How can they believe while unregenerate ? That would contradict Rom 8:8 and would say they which are in the flesh can please God.
Sorry, there is no regeneration for unbelievers
The Spirit is received through faith.
Acts 2:38 (LEB) — 38 And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized, each one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Galatians 3:2 (LEB) — 2 I want only to learn this from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Galatians 3:5 (LEB) — 5 Therefore does the one who gives you the Spirit and who works miracles among you do so by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Ephesians 1:13 (LEB) — 13 in whom also you, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, in whom also when you believed you were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,
John 7:38–39 (LEB) — 38 the one who believes in me. Just as the scripture said, ‘Out of his belly will flow rivers of living water.’ ” 39 (Now he said this concerning the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were about to receive. For the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus had not yet been glorified.)
Galatians 3:14 (LEB) — 14 in order that the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, so that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
Acts 11:15–17 And as I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell upon them just as He did upon us at the beginning. And I remembered the word of the Lord, how He used to say, ‘John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’ Therefore if God gave to them the same gift as He gave to us also after believing in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could stand in God’s way?”
Acts 19:2 He said to them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?” And they said to him, “No, we have not even heard whether there is a Holy Spirit.”
Acts 15:6–9 The apostles and the elders came together to look into this matter. 7 After there had been much debate, Peter stood up and said to them, “Brethren, you know that in the early days God made a choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles would hear the word of the gospel and believe. 8 And God, who knows the heart, testified to them giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He also did to us; 9 and He made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith.
Acts 5:32And we are witnesses of these things; and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey Him.”
brightfame52
Active Member
The evidence is the fact that they which are in the flesh cant please God, neither can they obey God or be subject to God Rom 8:7-8
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
Let me tell you the greek word sarx for flesh in Vs 8 is the same word for carnal in Vs 7 the flesh mind is not subject to God, if its not subject to the Law of God it cant be subject to God at all. And the mind of the flesh is enmity against God
brightfame52
Active Member
False thats the only ones that need it. Without it they cant believe and please God. Believing in Jesus is a commandment that pleases God, its pleasing in His sight 1 Jn 3:22-23
22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.
23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
Should believe here is an aorist active subjunctive, so its not talking about an ongoing believing right here but an action in the past, even though that's also true. But the loving of one another is present tense, which denotes an ongoing action, nevertheless both are commandments pleasing in Gods sight. Now the problem you have is the unregenerate cant do it Rom 8:7-8. So if an unbeliever is never regenerate, they can never believe on the name of Jesus Christ Gods Son.
Bob Carabbio
Active Member
Unimportant - since it's all nothing but "Denominational Theology" (which is like noses - everybody's got one).
What's critically important is to be CONVICTED of SIN by the Holy Spirit, and subsequently Repent IN FAITH (Heb 11:1 - Rom 10:17- Eph 2:8) that the SIN OFFERING (Isa 53:10) of Jesus is yours. If you lack WISDOM, then James 1:5-8 is the solution.
FreeInChrist
Active Member
If you would bother to read what others post you would know how.
brightfame52
Active Member
I do read what others post. I dont agree with it, I believe what I post
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