The New birth comes after hearing/believing the gospel

[brightfame52]

Nope

Yes in Rom 5:18 it clearly says that the all men there justification of life came upon them.

18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

These all men are Justified! And it was not because of there believing or anything they did, but solely by what Christ did.

 

[brightfame52]

You and I don’t, and that’s all that matters in this discussion between the two of us.

Doug

You and I don't what?

 

[brightfame52]

No unbeliever is justified in scripture

Absolutely false, Everyone Christ died for are Justified at the Cross B4 they believe and the resurrection of Christ testified to that Rom 4:25,, Now Christ died and rose again back in 33ad yet many for whom He did this for would not be born unbelieving sinners until centuries later, but they would already be Justified by the death of Christ back in 33ad, lest you reject the testification of Christ Resurrection!

 

[brightfame52]

I still don’t see an answer to my question: what scripture says faith receives anything, if not specifically “justification” as you claim?

Truth is given to elicit faith in it.

Doug

There's no scripture that says it verbatim as you request, but it is a discernable truth. Faith is given to rest in and believe the word of God. Faith receives the truth that Christ rose again for the Justification of those He was delivered up for Rom 4:25 or that they were Justified by His Blood Rom 5:9

 

[TomL]

Yes in Rom 5:18 it clearly says that the all men there justification of life came upon them.

18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

These all men are Justified! And it was not because of there believing or anything they did, but solely by what Christ did.

No, but justification is available for all men should they believe

And the extent here is all men, not a few unconditionally elected men as per your theology.

 

[TomL]

No unbeliever is justified in scripture! They are atoned for, so that God can forgive them. They are not yet forgiven- that can only occur after confession and repentance- but they are now able to be forgiven when and if they believe.

Jesus’s blood was shed for all men (as @TomL has demonstrated clearly), thus, all men are capable of being saved if they believe. But being able to be saved does not equate to being justified, for being saved is synonymous with being justified. We are only actually justified after we believe.


Doug

Amen

 

[brightfame52]

No, but justification is available for all men should they believe

Rom 5 18 said nothing about Justication of Life is made available, I guess condemnation was made available as well!

 

[civic]

No unbeliever is justified in scripture! They are atoned for, so that God can forgive them. They are not yet forgiven- that can only occur after confession and repentance- but they are now able to be forgiven when and if they believe.

Jesus’s blood was shed for all men (as @TomL has demonstrated clearly), thus, all men are capable of being saved if they believe. But being able to be saved does not equate to being justified, for being saved is synonymous with being justified. We are only actually justified after we believe.


Doug

Spot on brother

 

[TomL]

Rom 5 18 said nothing about Justication of Life is made available, I guess condemnation was made available as well!

So you believe all men are born justified?

Romans 5:18 (NASB95) — 18 So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.

Or only the elect—those you define as all men—were born condemned?

 

[Jim]

Rom 5 18 said nothing about Justication of Life is made available, I guess condemnation was made available as well!

Romans 5:18 says that "one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men". What that verse is saying is whatever might have been the result of Adam's one act of trespass was set aside completely as the result of the Jesus' one act of righteousness. And since that one act of trespass that might have been was condemnation at birth, then that was completely negated.

All men are indeed born free of the results of any sin of anyone!!

 

[TomL]

Rom 5 18 said nothing about Justication of Life is made available, I guess condemnation was made available as well!

So you believe all men are therefore born justified.

 

[brightfame52]

So you believe all men are born justified?

The ones in Romans 5:18 which are the elect yes

 

[TomL]

The ones in Romans 5:18 which are the elect yes

Rom 5:18

Romans 5:18 (NASB95) — 18 So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.

so they were also the ones condemned?

 

[TibiasDad]

You and I don't what?

Deny Rom 5:9!

Doug

 

[TibiasDad]

Absolutely false, Everyone Christ died for are Justified at the Cross B4 they believe and the resurrection of Christ testified to that Rom 4:25,, Now Christ died and rose again back in 33ad yet many for whom He did this for would not be born unbelieving sinners until centuries later, but they would already be Justified by the death of Christ back in 33ad, lest you reject the testification of Christ Resurrection!

The effects of Christ’s death and resurrection are not actualized on anyone until they believe. It’s not like a flu shot that those who to whom it is given are protected more than those who aren’t vaccinated. Christ’s work is not a preventative measure, it is a proscriptive one that all are free to take.

Doug

 

[TibiasDad]

There's no scripture that says it verbatim as you request,

Then there is no reason to believe it! (And don’t pull the “Trinity” card as a presumption trumping of my argument; all three entities are called God, thus the three are one in nature of being.)

but it is a discernable truth.

In other words, it’s a contrived meaning based on misaligned assumptions.


Doug

 

[civic]

The effects of Christ’s death and resurrection are not actualized on anyone until they believe. It’s not like a flu shot that those who to whom it is given are protected more than those who aren’t vaccinated. Christ’s work is not a preventative measure, it is a proscriptive one that all are free to take.

Doug

great analogy- even my grandkids can understand that biblical truth.

 

[civic]

There's no scripture that says it verbatim as you request, but it is a discernable truth. Faith is given to rest in and believe the word of God. Faith receives the truth that Christ rose again for the Justification of those He was delivered up for Rom 4:25 or that they were Justified by His Blood Rom 5:9

argument from silence fallacy alert.

 

[TibiasDad]

Romans 5:18 says that "one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men".

Warning! Beware of the invisible wording virus that can cause people to insert words into the text, eg, “for all (kinds) of men” or “all (types) of men”! Those infected will try to spread the virus to others!

Doug

 

[TibiasDad]

great analogy- even my grandkids can understand that biblical truth.

I tend to have a childlike mind…

Doug