The need for repentance.....

[praise_yeshua]

I did a quick reread and didn’t see anything about Esau asking Isaac for forgiveness. Jacob asked Esau for forgiveness , but that’s the only thing I remembered. I am honest enough to say that I don’t remember everything I’ve read. If that is wrong, then guilty as charged. Somehow I don’t think that will be an issue on judgement day!

One thing I have noticed, however, is a lack of scripture from you showing where this happened.

The writer of Hebrews said Esau did.

Heb 12:17 For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.

Which corresponds to

Gen 27:34 And when Esau heard the words of his father, he cried with a great and exceeding bitter cry, and said unto his father, Bless me, even me also, O my father.

@praise_yeshua apparently is the Holy Spirit incarnate and is here to convict me of sin! Moreover, he knows what I believe and has corrected my own thinking about what I believe.

Yeah. I've heard this over and over again. I decided a long time ago that I would believe the Truth regardless of the relationship I have with anyone. It has separated me from many people that I care about. They ultimately say the same things over and over again. Yet, God has not left me. He stands with me and strengthens me. I'm not your Master. I point you to the Master. I'm not looking for any disciples. I rightfully try to make men chargeable to God. Listen. Don't listen. Your choice. By all means accept the voice of God as you hear it. Just make certain it is HIS voice. Again. I hear the Wesley brother's voices from you.

I don’t know which of you to believe…so I’ll just believe what the Bible actually says.

There were contexts to my words. You selectively quoted me. Does God do that in judgement?

I told you that true repentance is a "two way street". You treat as if you can just "change your mind" and meet the requirements of "repentance". You can't. It is still YOUR MIND. You must agree literally agree with the Mind of God. You must see it exactly as He sees it. Men can only take you so far. I can pass my faith to you just as I know it but you then have to deal with God. That is the story of our lives. The "Trial of faith". It takes just smallest of faith to begin that journey but it is a life long endeavor to see everything as the mind of Christ sees it. That sir doesn't come from your own innate abilities. It is gifted from God as we continue to seek and serve Him. As we MATURE.

And the scripture for this is…?

Repentance is GRANTED......................................................................

2Ti 2:25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

This world is full of people claiming to know God through repentance that has never received the mind of Christ. You know the "I'm sorry"... it is all okay now syndrome.... that plaques all of humanity.

I don’t think I’ve said anything contrary to this at any time in my life. But then again, you, as the Holy Spirit, know me better than I know myself.

Sure you have. Go ahead and lets compare your "ordo salutis". I know what the Wesley brothers believe. Lets see if it really matches since you're their disciple.

I'm not the Holy Spirit. I just don't believe you know the Holy Spirit as well as you think you do. Knowing requires silence so you can hear His small voice. Everyone has too many voices in their heads now. I told my son the other day that he had too many "other voices" in this head "flavoring" his thoughts. I wanted to know what his thoughts were. Mankind has far too many people between themselves and God.

I believe I said the same thing to you.

No. You said everyone needed to repent.

I’m beginning to think you’re a Wesleyan without even trying to understand what Wesley taught! It just comes naturally when you read the Bible.

Quote the Wesley brothers anytime. Go for it. There is a Wesleyan assembly very near to me. They love money. I mean seriously..... THEY REALLY LOVE money now. All these programs you all have going now.... I see a lot of movement but where is the real impact?

I want you acknowledge that I have been hard on you. It is challenging to face the realty of our circumstances but we don't face realty, we never change. I'm not going to let you live without facing realty. I hope you can acknowledge the importance of facing the stark realty of our daily existence.

 

[TibiasDad]

The writer of Hebrews said Esau did.

Heb 12:17 For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.

Which corresponds to

Gen 27:34 And when Esau heard the words of his father, he cried with a great and exceeding bitter cry, and said unto his father, Bless me, even me also, O my father.

That to which the Hebrew writer was referring was Esau seeking his father’s change of mind about giving the blessing to Jacob instead of him. Esau didn’t repent of anything, he wanted Isaac to repent/change his mind and bless him, to which Isaac replied:

37Isaac answered Esau, “I have made him lord over you and have made all his relatives his servants, and I have sustained him with grain and new wine. So what can I possibly do for you, my son?”

38Esau said to his father, “Do you have only one blessing, my father? Bless me too, my father!” Then Esau wept aloud.

39His father Isaac answered him,

“Your dwelling will be
away from the earth’s richness,
away from the dew of heaven above.
40You will live by the sword
and you will serve your brother.
But when you grow restless,
you will throw his yoke
from off your neck.”

There were contexts to my words. You selectively quoted me. Does God do that in judgement?

There are not two contexts which in one repentance means “to change your mind” and in another it doesn’t! That only leads to a meaningless sense of language.

I told you that true repentance is a "two way street". You treat as if you can just "change your mind" and meet the requirements of "repentance". You can't. It is still YOUR MIND. You must agree literally agree with the Mind of God.

You have already “agreed” with the mind of God if you are repenting. Agreeing with God is what makes to want to repent/ change your direction and live differently. I cannot repent if I haven’t already agreed with the mind of God.

Moreover, I am the only one who needs to repent; God doesn’t need to repent of anything. It is not a two way street! God has told us what he will do “if” we repent but that is not the completion of my repentance, that is the result of my repentance.

No. You said everyone needed to repent.

Only if you want to be forgiven and saved!

Quote the Wesley brothers anytime. Go for it. There is a Wesleyan assembly very near to me. They love money. I mean seriously..... THEY REALLY LOVE money now. All these programs you all have going now.... I see a lot of movement but where is the real impact?

I am Wesleyan in thought, I am not part of the Wesleyan denomination, I am an ordained Elder in the Nazarene church.

As for the “real impact”, I suppose you would have to talk with the people in the church to determine whether the church has had any “real impact”.

I want you acknowledge that I have been hard on you.

I’m not sure what you mean by “been hard on you”? I take no offense at anything you say, despite your apparent distain of Wesleyan theology. I wish you could be more cordial in you presentation of thought. Again, to agree to disagree agreeably is what can make these conversations more enjoyable. There is very little that anyone can do that I would say makes things hard on me, save pure belligerence with a lack of exegetical knowledge. But in those rare cases I can simply put them on ignore!

Doug

 

[TibiasDad]

Repentance is GRANTED....................

and gentle when refuting opponents. After all, maybe God will allow them to repent and to come to a full knowledge of the truth,

Granting the ability to repent, or in other words God will bring them to the place of repentance and they will reject their wrong ideas and understand the fullness of the truth.

God doesn’t “give” us repentance in and of itself, he allows us to repent. That is the idiom of “grant repentance”.


Doug

 

[praise_yeshua]

and gentle when refuting opponents. After all, maybe God will allow them to repent and to come to a full knowledge of the truth,

Granting the ability to repent, or in other words God will bring them to the place of repentance and they will reject their wrong ideas and understand the fullness of the truth.

God doesn’t “give” us repentance in and of itself, he allows us to repent. That is the idiom of “grant repentance”.


Doug

I disagree completely but that is for another time.....

I want to be clear about what I'm about to say.

I've found in my life that one of the hardest things a Christian has to learn is to discern the voice of God from all the other voices in their lives. We have so many voices in our lives. The loudest of those voice is usually our own voice. I certainly have my own voice. I hope others can recognize this in themselves. We all have these challenges. Some worse than others. Perspective is a difficult thing to "voice" to others. It takes time and relationship/trust to experience what is necessary to gain "perspective" from others. I've asked the Lord to help me in this argument we have going with one another. I have nothing more than the intent to express my faith to others that we all might gain in knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ the way we should.

I've sought the Lord and reached out to Him with my senses to try and know what direction I should take in this disagreement we have between us. This has left me troubled in my spirit. I believe what I've said is true without question but this has come to point between us where it is not fruitful.

I want to apologize for offending you in much of this. It was not my intent. I'm going to leave this as it is at the moment and I pray the Lord can enlighten us both in this. I believe I can safely say that we agree with

"Let God be true and every man a liar". Romans 3:4.

 

[TibiasDad]

I disagree completely but that is for another time.....

I want to be clear about what I'm about to say.

I've found in my life that one of the hardest things a Christian has to learn is to discern the voice of God from all the other voices in their lives. We have so many voices in our lives. The loudest of those voice is usually our own voice. I certainly have my own voice. I hope others can recognize this in themselves. We all have these challenges. Some worse than others. Perspective is a difficult thing to "voice" to others. It takes time and relationship/trust to experience what is necessary to gain "perspective" from others. I've asked the Lord to help me in this argument we have going with one another. I have nothing more than the intent to express my faith to others that we all might gain in knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ the way we should.

I've sought the Lord and reached out to Him with my senses to try and know what direction I should take in this disagreement we have between us. This has left me troubled in my spirit. I believe what I've said is true without question but this has come to point between us where it is not fruitful.

I want to apologize for offending you in much of this. It was not my intent. I'm going to leave this as it is at the moment and I pray the Lord can enlighten us both in this. I believe I can safely say that we agree with

"Let God be true and every man a liar". Romans 3:4.

For all who have found the grace of God in our lives, there are foundational truths in which we are all united.

The Apostle’s Creed is a great example of expression of these truths. All other things fall into second or third tier particulars that create the pockets wherein our particular understandings can develop and dwell.

The only place where the concrete issue of right and wrong belongs is in the first tier, for that is the true essence of Christianity. All the other tiers are areas that have room for disagreement without calling it necessarily wrong, or belittling their faith or love for God. I know this is difficult, and I am certainly not perfect in keeping it, especially when we are so passionate about certain topics. Thus, again, I have always tried to disagree, even though strongly, in an agreeable manner.

You have nothing to apologize for, unless you sense the need to do from the Spirit. If you do, then consider yourself forgiven, for I don’t find any of the points of disagreement heresy worthy.


Doug

 

[civic]

Great to see @TibiasDad and @praise_yeshua .