The need for repentance.....

[praise_yeshua]

I did a quick reread and didn’t see anything about Esau asking Isaac for forgiveness. Jacob asked Esau for forgiveness , but that’s the only thing I remembered. I am honest enough to say that I don’t remember everything I’ve read. If that is wrong, then guilty as charged. Somehow I don’t think that will be an issue on judgement day!

One thing I have noticed, however, is a lack of scripture from you showing where this happened.

The writer of Hebrews said Esau did.

Heb 12:17 For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.

Which corresponds to

Gen 27:34 And when Esau heard the words of his father, he cried with a great and exceeding bitter cry, and said unto his father, Bless me, even me also, O my father.

@praise_yeshua apparently is the Holy Spirit incarnate and is here to convict me of sin! Moreover, he knows what I believe and has corrected my own thinking about what I believe.

Yeah. I've heard this over and over again. I decided a long time ago that I would believe the Truth regardless of the relationship I have with anyone. It has separated me from many people that I care about. They ultimately say the same things over and over again. Yet, God has not left me. He stands with me and strengthens me. I'm not your Master. I point you to the Master. I'm not looking for any disciples. I rightfully try to make men chargeable to God. Listen. Don't listen. Your choice. By all means accept the voice of God as you hear it. Just make certain it is HIS voice. Again. I hear the Wesley brother's voices from you.

I don’t know which of you to believe…so I’ll just believe what the Bible actually says.

There were contexts to my words. You selectively quoted me. Does God do that in judgement?

I told you that true repentance is a "two way street". You treat as if you can just "change your mind" and meet the requirements of "repentance". You can't. It is still YOUR MIND. You must agree literally agree with the Mind of God. You must see it exactly as He sees it. Men can only take you so far. I can pass my faith to you just as I know it but you then have to deal with God. That is the story of our lives. The "Trial of faith". It takes just smallest of faith to begin that journey but it is a life long endeavor to see everything as the mind of Christ sees it. That sir doesn't come from your own innate abilities. It is gifted from God as we continue to seek and serve Him. As we MATURE.

And the scripture for this is…?

Repentance is GRANTED......................................................................

2Ti 2:25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

This world is full of people claiming to know God through repentance that has never received the mind of Christ. You know the "I'm sorry"... it is all okay now syndrome.... that plaques all of humanity.

I don’t think I’ve said anything contrary to this at any time in my life. But then again, you, as the Holy Spirit, know me better than I know myself.

Sure you have. Go ahead and lets compare your "ordo salutis". I know what the Wesley brothers believe. Lets see if it really matches since you're their disciple.

I'm not the Holy Spirit. I just don't believe you know the Holy Spirit as well as you think you do. Knowing requires silence so you can hear His small voice. Everyone has too many voices in their heads now. I told my son the other day that he had too many "other voices" in this head "flavoring" his thoughts. I wanted to know what his thoughts were. Mankind has far too many people between themselves and God.

I believe I said the same thing to you.

No. You said everyone needed to repent.

I’m beginning to think you’re a Wesleyan without even trying to understand what Wesley taught! It just comes naturally when you read the Bible.

Quote the Wesley brothers anytime. Go for it. There is a Wesleyan assembly very near to me. They love money. I mean seriously..... THEY REALLY LOVE money now. All these programs you all have going now.... I see a lot of movement but where is the real impact?

I want you acknowledge that I have been hard on you. It is challenging to face the realty of our circumstances but we don't face realty, we never change. I'm not going to let you live without facing realty. I hope you can acknowledge the importance of facing the stark realty of our daily existence.

 

[TibiasDad]

The writer of Hebrews said Esau did.

Heb 12:17 For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.

Which corresponds to

Gen 27:34 And when Esau heard the words of his father, he cried with a great and exceeding bitter cry, and said unto his father, Bless me, even me also, O my father.

That to which the Hebrew writer was referring was Esau seeking his father’s change of mind about giving the blessing to Jacob instead of him. Esau didn’t repent of anything, he wanted Isaac to repent/change his mind and bless him, to which Isaac replied:

37Isaac answered Esau, “I have made him lord over you and have made all his relatives his servants, and I have sustained him with grain and new wine. So what can I possibly do for you, my son?”

38Esau said to his father, “Do you have only one blessing, my father? Bless me too, my father!” Then Esau wept aloud.

39His father Isaac answered him,

“Your dwelling will be
away from the earth’s richness,
away from the dew of heaven above.
40You will live by the sword
and you will serve your brother.
But when you grow restless,
you will throw his yoke
from off your neck.”

There were contexts to my words. You selectively quoted me. Does God do that in judgement?

There are not two contexts which in one repentance means “to change your mind” and in another it doesn’t! That only leads to a meaningless sense of language.

I told you that true repentance is a "two way street". You treat as if you can just "change your mind" and meet the requirements of "repentance". You can't. It is still YOUR MIND. You must agree literally agree with the Mind of God.

You have already “agreed” with the mind of God if you are repenting. Agreeing with God is what makes to want to repent/ change your direction and live differently. I cannot repent if I haven’t already agreed with the mind of God.

Moreover, I am the only one who needs to repent; God doesn’t need to repent of anything. It is not a two way street! God has told us what he will do “if” we repent but that is not the completion of my repentance, that is the result of my repentance.

No. You said everyone needed to repent.

Only if you want to be forgiven and saved!

Quote the Wesley brothers anytime. Go for it. There is a Wesleyan assembly very near to me. They love money. I mean seriously..... THEY REALLY LOVE money now. All these programs you all have going now.... I see a lot of movement but where is the real impact?

I am Wesleyan in thought, I am not part of the Wesleyan denomination, I am an ordained Elder in the Nazarene church.

As for the “real impact”, I suppose you would have to talk with the people in the church to determine whether the church has had any “real impact”.

I want you acknowledge that I have been hard on you.

I’m not sure what you mean by “been hard on you”? I take no offense at anything you say, despite your apparent distain of Wesleyan theology. I wish you could be more cordial in you presentation of thought. Again, to agree to disagree agreeably is what can make these conversations more enjoyable. There is very little that anyone can do that I would say makes things hard on me, save pure belligerence with a lack of exegetical knowledge. But in those rare cases I can simply put them on ignore!

Doug

 

[TibiasDad]

Repentance is GRANTED....................

and gentle when refuting opponents. After all, maybe God will allow them to repent and to come to a full knowledge of the truth,

Granting the ability to repent, or in other words God will bring them to the place of repentance and they will reject their wrong ideas and understand the fullness of the truth.

God doesn’t “give” us repentance in and of itself, he allows us to repent. That is the idiom of “grant repentance”.


Doug

 

[praise_yeshua]

and gentle when refuting opponents. After all, maybe God will allow them to repent and to come to a full knowledge of the truth,

Granting the ability to repent, or in other words God will bring them to the place of repentance and they will reject their wrong ideas and understand the fullness of the truth.

God doesn’t “give” us repentance in and of itself, he allows us to repent. That is the idiom of “grant repentance”.


Doug

I disagree completely but that is for another time.....

I want to be clear about what I'm about to say.

I've found in my life that one of the hardest things a Christian has to learn is to discern the voice of God from all the other voices in their lives. We have so many voices in our lives. The loudest of those voice is usually our own voice. I certainly have my own voice. I hope others can recognize this in themselves. We all have these challenges. Some worse than others. Perspective is a difficult thing to "voice" to others. It takes time and relationship/trust to experience what is necessary to gain "perspective" from others. I've asked the Lord to help me in this argument we have going with one another. I have nothing more than the intent to express my faith to others that we all might gain in knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ the way we should.

I've sought the Lord and reached out to Him with my senses to try and know what direction I should take in this disagreement we have between us. This has left me troubled in my spirit. I believe what I've said is true without question but this has come to point between us where it is not fruitful.

I want to apologize for offending you in much of this. It was not my intent. I'm going to leave this as it is at the moment and I pray the Lord can enlighten us both in this. I believe I can safely say that we agree with

"Let God be true and every man a liar". Romans 3:4.

 

[TibiasDad]

I disagree completely but that is for another time.....

I want to be clear about what I'm about to say.

I've found in my life that one of the hardest things a Christian has to learn is to discern the voice of God from all the other voices in their lives. We have so many voices in our lives. The loudest of those voice is usually our own voice. I certainly have my own voice. I hope others can recognize this in themselves. We all have these challenges. Some worse than others. Perspective is a difficult thing to "voice" to others. It takes time and relationship/trust to experience what is necessary to gain "perspective" from others. I've asked the Lord to help me in this argument we have going with one another. I have nothing more than the intent to express my faith to others that we all might gain in knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ the way we should.

I've sought the Lord and reached out to Him with my senses to try and know what direction I should take in this disagreement we have between us. This has left me troubled in my spirit. I believe what I've said is true without question but this has come to point between us where it is not fruitful.

I want to apologize for offending you in much of this. It was not my intent. I'm going to leave this as it is at the moment and I pray the Lord can enlighten us both in this. I believe I can safely say that we agree with

"Let God be true and every man a liar". Romans 3:4.

For all who have found the grace of God in our lives, there are foundational truths in which we are all united.

The Apostle’s Creed is a great example of expression of these truths. All other things fall into second or third tier particulars that create the pockets wherein our particular understandings can develop and dwell.

The only place where the concrete issue of right and wrong belongs is in the first tier, for that is the true essence of Christianity. All the other tiers are areas that have room for disagreement without calling it necessarily wrong, or belittling their faith or love for God. I know this is difficult, and I am certainly not perfect in keeping it, especially when we are so passionate about certain topics. Thus, again, I have always tried to disagree, even though strongly, in an agreeable manner.

You have nothing to apologize for, unless you sense the need to do from the Spirit. If you do, then consider yourself forgiven, for I don’t find any of the points of disagreement heresy worthy.


Doug

 

[civic]

Great to see @TibiasDad and @praise_yeshua .

 

[brightfame52]

Repentance is graciously given and caused to them Jesus saves as their Saviour Acts 5:31

31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give/cause repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

Acts 11:18

18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted/caused repentance unto life.

Jesus turns us and we repent when He saves us Jer 31:19

19 Surely after that I was turned, I repented; and after that I was instructed, I smote upon my thigh: I was ashamed, yea, even confounded, because I did bear the reproach of my youth.

 

[brightfame52]

The need for repentance is the need for the New Birth !

 

[civic]

The need for repentance is the need for the New Birth !

Got Scripture ?

 

[brightfame52]

Got Scripture ?

I have given you scripture, that doesnt help you

 

[civic]

I have given you scripture, that doesnt help you

no you twist scripture which is the case and doesn't help you.

 

[brightfame52]

no you twist scripture which is the case and doesn't help you.

Both faith/repentance are spiritual fruits and activity that evidence Spiritual life.

 

[Studyman]

Jesus speaking... Pay attention.

Luk 5:31 And Jesus answering said unto them, They that are whole need not a physician; but they that are sick.
Luk 5:32 I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Simple questions.

1. Did Jesus call John the Baptist to repentance?
2. Did Jesus call Elizabeth to repentance?
3. Did Jesus call John the Beloved to repentance?

Care to share the Scriptures that prove that Jesus did?

The Gospel of Christ has always called for repentance. Jesus didn't bring HIS OWN WORDS. HE Himself said HE speaks the Words His Father Gave Him. In the Gospel of Christ, repentance is called "Turning away from your sins" (From the heart, or inner man.) This is the very foundation of the "Good News", according to the Scriptures.

Gen. 4: 5 But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell. 6 And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen? 7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

Gen. 12: 1 Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee: 2 And (If you follow me) I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:

Lot chose to sojourn with Abraham. Others could have. Even in Sodom, how many times would God have given them the same chance to "Repent" and turn to Him, just as HE did for Niveah?

The God and Father of Jesus sent these Words for Him to give us "Luke 13:3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

This same God and Father inspired Ezekiel to say to us:

Ez. 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him. 21 But if the wicked will "turn from all his sins that he hath committed", and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die. 22 All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live. 23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?

This theme is present throughout the Holy Scriptures and in the very foundation of the Gospel of the Christ, of the Bible.

Zech. 1: 2 The LORD hath been sore displeased with your fathers. 3 Therefore say thou unto them, Thus saith the LORD of hosts; Turn ye unto me, saith the LORD of hosts, and I will turn unto you, saith the LORD of hosts. 4 Be ye not as your fathers, unto whom the former prophets have cried, saying, Thus saith the LORD of hosts; Turn ye now from your evil ways, and from your evil doings: but they did not hear, nor hearken unto me, saith the LORD.

So then, in answer to your question, without doubt according to Scriptures, the Exact Same Spirit which Led the Jesus "of the Bible" to tell me to repent, also instructed JTB, Zacharias, John the beloved, David, Simeon, Peter, James and EVERY Person whose name is written in the Book of Life, who was a member of the Church of God, AKA "the Body of Christ."

 

[Studyman]

1) It could be because “there are none righteous” to call!

2) Righteous does not necessarily mean sinless. You are righteous, but you have sinned, right?

3) The righteous don’t need to repent, they already have repented. That’s why they are now righteous and no longer unrighteous.


Doug

This is true if a person truly has turned away from transgressing God's Commandments "from the heart". In Rom. 3, Paul, and David from the Psalms 5 and 14 that Paul quoted from, are speaking about those who "Professed to know God, but lived in disobedience to Him" or as David defines them, "Workers of iniquity". As David says, "for God is in the Generation of the Righteous". Jesus said we can know them by their fruits.

 

[brightfame52]

Repentance is the result of Christ finding His Lost Sheep Lk 15:1-7

1 Then drew near unto him all the publicans and sinners for to hear him.

2 And the Pharisees and scribes murmured, saying, This man receiveth sinners, and eateth with them.

3 And he spake this parable unto them, saying,

4 What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it?

5 And when he hath found it, he layeth it on his shoulders, rejoicing.

6 And when he cometh home, he calleth together his friends and neighbours, saying unto them, Rejoice with me; for I have found my sheep which was lost.

7 I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.

Now if we observe the narrative carefully, the sinner repenting[the found sheep] is the fruit and effect of the man going out to find his lost sheep, and finding it, he layeth it on his shoulders[for safety] and he rejoices, and it this success that caused the repentance of the sinner.


Its Christ who gives repentance as Saviour of His Sheep Acts 5 31

31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.