The necessity of a proper view of Time is essential to a proper theology

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praise_yeshua

Well-known member
There is this "concept" in every single modern theological system that God is "outside time".

I have plenty of things to say against this position... but I would like start with someone actually making "this case/their case" from the Scriptures. If you can not, then present a short summary of why you believe this to be true.

I will begin by saying that the word "Eternal" is not used an a description for the absence of time. It is rather a description indication the endless measure of time. Never ending time. We know this clearly from

Eph 3:21 Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.

If you do not believe Eph 3:21 teachings this, please explain why.
 
praise_yeshua said:
There is this "concept" in every single modern theological system that God is "outside time".

I have plenty of things to say against this position... but I would like start with someone actually making "this case/their case" from the Scriptures. If you can not, then present a short summary of why you believe this to be true.

I will begin by saying that the word "Eternal" is not used an a description for the absence of time. It is rather a description indication the endless measure of time. Never ending time. We know this clearly from

Eph 3:21 Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.

If you do not believe Eph 3:21 teachings this, please explain why.
Click to expand...
I would say His paradise, heaven, is outside of 'this' type of time.
 
e v e said:
I would say His paradise, heaven, is outside of 'this' type of time.
Click to expand...
I believe you are referencing experience. Experience changes. Thank God, some experiences ends. However, Eternal things continue. They endure. They never cease to be. There is order in this sequence. Order in purpose. Order in character. Without this order there is not direction. No construct to what is. Satan seeks to destroy order.
 
praise_yeshua said:
There is this "concept" in every single modern theological system that God is "outside time".

I have plenty of things to say against this position... but I would like start with someone actually making "this case/their case" from the Scriptures. If you can not, then present a short summary of why you believe this to be true.

I will begin by saying that the word "Eternal" is not used an a description for the absence of time. It is rather a description indication the endless measure of time. Never ending time. We know this clearly from

Eph 3:21 Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.

If you do not believe Eph 3:21 teachings this, please explain why.
Click to expand...

This is a great error that leads to Open Theism or the belief that omniscience eliminates free will.

We say God is "outside" of time, not to mean that God is not also within time—he is both in and out of time.

The reason is the Creator/creature distinction, the transcendence of God.

Panentheism makes God a part of creation, such that God is limited and regulated by that which he has made.

Scripture tells us that God dwells (makes a tent in) in eternity, Isaiah 57:15, he is not "going" to be there someday, he already lives there.

We are prone to recreate God in our image and put limitations on God, like he is just a bigger version of us.
 
dizerner said:
This is a great error that leads to Open Theism or the belief that omniscience eliminates free will.

We say God is "outside" of time, not to mean that God is not also within time—he is both in and out of time.

The reason is the Creator/creature distinction, the transcendence of God.

Panentheism makes God a part of creation, such that God is limited and regulated by that which he has made.

Scripture tells us that God dwells (makes a tent in) in eternity, Isaiah 57:15, he is not "going" to be there someday, he already lives there.

We are prone to recreate God in our image and put limitations on God, like he is just a bigger version of us.
Click to expand...
much like kenosis does making Christ less God than the Father while on this earth.
 
dizerner said:
This is a great error that leads to Open Theism or the belief that omniscience eliminates free will.

We say God is "outside" of time, not to mean that God is not also within time—he is both in and out of time.

The reason is the Creator/creature distinction, the transcendence of God.

Panentheism makes God a part of creation, such that God is limited and regulated by that which he has made.

Scripture tells us that God dwells (makes a tent in) in eternity, Isaiah 57:15, he is not "going" to be there someday, he already lives there.

We are prone to recreate God in our image and put limitations on God, like he is just a bigger version of us.
Click to expand...
I'm not an Open Theist. My beliefs have not lead me to Open Theism. There is always someone falsely claiming Panentheism when they can't defend their position. Tell me. Is God not love because love exists in His creation? That is the false nature of such claims. God's creation reflects His very Character. Loves exists around us and in us because God is love.

I understand your position. It a common position expoused by many theologies.

What I don't understand is how Isaiah 57:15 establishes this position. Can you break apart the verse and establish your claim. I have dealt with the verse many times. It does not match the claim made..

I posted a verse earlier. Can you review the words expressed. World without end means what exactly?
 
praise_yeshua said:
I believe you are referencing experience. Experience changes. Thank God, some experiences ends. However, Eternal things continue. They endure. They never cease to be. There is order in this sequence. Order in purpose. Order in character. Without this order there is not direction. No construct to what is. Satan seeks to destroy order.
Click to expand...
I really think that this physical reality is such a step down in comparison to heaven...
 
praise_yeshua said:
There is this "concept" in every single modern theological system that God is "outside time".

I have plenty of things to say against this position... but I would like start with someone actually making "this case/their case" from the Scriptures. If you can not, then present a short summary of why you believe this to be true.

I will begin by saying that the word "Eternal" is not used an a description for the absence of time. It is rather a description indication the endless measure of time. Never ending time. We know this clearly from

Eph 3:21 Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.

If you do not believe Eph 3:21 teachings this, please explain why.
Click to expand...
Interesting Op, One thing I've been taught to believe is that God is not limited by time. Other than that I'm going to have to do some studying. It would seem that time to us, A 24-hour , or a year which includes the seasons and the rotation of the sun and the earth would be a lot different than how God would experience time. I like what you mentioned about the endless measure of time. And I'm also thinking about the fullness of time. Talked about in Galatians 4:4-5 When Jesus came to earth and became one of us in order to save us.

Then there's our age we go from infants to old geezers from the passage of time. Yes time seems like a really interesting subject. I'm going to have to hit the books.

www.gotquestions.org

What is God’s relationship to time? | GotQuestions.org

What is God’s relationship to time? Is God above and beyond the restrictions of time?
www.gotquestions.org
 
civic said:
much like kenosis does making Christ less God than the Father while on this earth.
Click to expand...

It's an off-topic little dig, but sure I'll address it.


You are arguing basically like a Calvinist argues for God's attributes:

"God can't limit himself because it ruins his sovereignty, and thus God is not really Sovereign anymore.

This is why libertarian free will can't exist, God is not in control of it, and thus not Sovereign over it."


So what is the argument?

God is not powerful enough to limit himself—he just can't do that one thing.

But God HAS to limit himself for true free will to exist, because freedom by definition can't be completely controlled by God.


Now, whether you like it or not, if you say Jesus is BOTH God and man, you are positing a logical contradiction.

Creation and creator have opposite attributes—contradictory attributes—limited and limitless, finite and infinite.

But somehow even you admit Jesus is both.


God being able to limit himself does not make himself LESS powerful but rather MORE powerful.

There are more things he is able to do and allow by self-limitations.

And without that concept, Jesus made no real sacrifice because he made no real change.


No, a personless human avatar did not suffer for my sins, while a divine person in heaven watched unchanged and glorified.

God himself became a man to suffer for my sins, and that is real sacrifice.

"I will not offer a sacrifice unto the Lord THAT COST ME NOTHING."


But I could easily see for someone that doesn't even think Christ really suffered any punishment, it would be easier just to remove his humanity.

As long as he's not a real human., he doesn't ever have to really suffer or stand in our place, he's constantly glorified and powerful:

So that Jesus didn't "become poor" for our sake, Jesus stayed as rich as he ever was, and redeemed us at no cost at all.


But sin has a price tag and Jesus had to pay it.
 
dizerner said:
It's an off-topic little dig, but sure I'll address it.


You are arguing basically like a Calvinist argues for God's attributes:

"God can't limit himself because it ruins his sovereignty, and thus God is not really Sovereign anymore.

This is why libertarian free will can't exist, God is not in control of it, and thus not Sovereign over it."


So what is the argument?

God is not powerful enough to limit himself—he just can't do that one thing.

But God HAS to limit himself for true free will to exist, because freedom by definition can't be completely controlled by God.


Now, whether you like it or not, if you say Jesus is BOTH God and man, you are positing a logical contradiction.

Creation and creator have opposite attributes—contradictory attributes—limited and limitless, finite and infinite.

But somehow even you admit Jesus is both.


God being able to limit himself does not make himself LESS powerful but rather MORE powerful.

There are more things he is able to do and allow by self-limitations.

And without that concept, Jesus made no real sacrifice because he made no real change.


No, a personless human avatar did not suffer for my sins, while a divine person in heaven watched unchanged and glorified.

God himself became a man to suffer for my sins, and that is real sacrifice.

"I will not offer a sacrifice unto the Lord THAT COST ME NOTHING."


But I could easily see for someone that doesn't even think Christ really suffered any punishment, it would be easier just to remove his humanity.

As long as he's not a real human., he doesn't ever have to really suffer or stand in our place, he's constantly glorified and powerful:

So that Jesus didn't "become poor" for our sake, Jesus stayed as rich as he ever was, and redeemed us at no cost at all.


But sin has a price tag and Jesus had to pay it.
Click to expand...
Sovereign does not mean meticulous control over everything.
Punishment was inflicted by man and not God which caused His death and suffering
God is not a math equation and nothing can be compared to Him. Isaiah 40:25
Christ is also Unique and nothing can be compared to His 2 natures.

hope this helps !!!
 
So is God in time, outside of time? I won't pretend to try to understand it all. I do know that time can be a different thing to different people depending on the speed one is going and I"m talking about speeds up to near the speed of light. Of course no human has gone to such speeds but atomic accelerators have demonstrated this or we could say the things that Einstein showed with relatively.

But to say there is no time in eternity or Heaven....seems to me there's sequencing that takes place and any time there's sequencing, stage one, stage two, stage three.....well it would have to be considered time of some sort.

eg. The martyrs in Heaven observed something.....they then responded to the Lord with a question. Rev 6.: 9....he then answered and then they came to an understanding of his will. That's an example of sequence so that can only be considered an example of time of some sort. What do I mean by that? I don't know but anything that has sequence I have to believe could be considered as time.
 
Then there's this... our finite minds can not fathom eternity.

He has made everything beautiful in its time. He has also set eternity in the human heart; yet no one can fathom what God has done from beginning to end. Ecclesiastes 3:1
 
Theophilus said:
Interesting Op, One thing I've been taught to believe is that God is not limited by time. Other than that I'm going to have to do some studying. It would seem that time to us, A 24-hour , or a year which includes the seasons and the rotation of the sun and the earth would be a lot different than how God would experience time.
Click to expand...
Again not claiming I understand everything about this subject. I would say though the seasons, and rotations of the sun and earth are merely ways God has provided that we might pace ourselves. eg. Sun goes down, it gets dark....we go to bed. Then the natural alarm clock God has created the rooster wakes everybody up....or it did for thousands of years.

In Heaven though I think the scriptures do show there is a sequence of events and people there experience sequence....wouldn't that be time of some form or type? I think it would have to be.
 

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