The Hypostatic Union- the 2 Natures in Christ

I think Christ only has one nature, the nature of paradise intended for man.
yes, He did incarnate in the horrible fleshbody...
for us... what a horror for Him...
and then He resurrected in the type of body made by God for us
that we had in paradise, the body He made which was and will be His temple...
and that is NOT this flesh body.

the current fleshbody is not of His type of nature...
and resulted as a corruption from the fall
caused by Adam going to the demon Nations.

as Christ did at His resurrection, His sons and daughters will be restored,
= have our resurrection and receive our body made by God, and then we will have only One Nature too..
the nature made for us in paradise by God, which He declared Good, and which was lost
because of Adam.
 
The trinity is He and His hands, His hands being
Christ and His Spirit, who we were made in the image of
Male and Female...
three gorgeous beings and they, God, who we
are made in the image of are our true family...
of all those who accept Christ...
 
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all the religion and other wars on every topic are
really to hide the true family of us... because satan hates us..
such that esau/satanic realm tries to get us into fleshbody affiliations
(=govts, races, countries, as its corrupt-earth constructs)
and esau does this to create division of the male and female, which is the type of His image..
now 'separated' by the fall and by a million false paradigms...
such that by consenting to the separation... then satan wants souls to
plow themselves into adam's (corrupt) version of every concept...

the modern philistine concepts of everything that run this world.
 
Exactly right. Very well said. Even as a non-trinitarian, I used to carry around articles like this in a brief case to distribute to people whom I spoke with about the Trinity.

If “you“ want to be a trinitarian, read the fine print. This is what trinitarianism teaches us.

“You” have read the fine print, agree with it, and want to be a trinitarian? Then be a trinitarian.

“You” have read the fine print and disagree with it? Then don’t masquerade as something that “you“ are not.

People have killed and been killed over it. It’s a serious matter and should be treated as such.
Hello Matthias,

I agree with you although I don't think anyone needs to be worried about being killed over it anymore. The Evangelical Church, its seminaries and commentaries have been pretty much a dumpster fire with regard to the Historic Christian Faith as found in the early creeds and as they relate to theology proper and Christology (and I mean specifically the incarnation). Evangelicals seem to have some postmodern operating system at times and believe they can call themselves Trinitarians and attach whatever definition and/or meaning they want to that. I had a huge disagreement with a former pastor who actually thought he was teaching Chalcedonian Christology when in fact he was clearly teaching an ontological kenotic Christology (which is also completely incompatible with the doctrine of the Trinity).

And the dumpster fire continues to get worse. According to the State of Theology in 2020, 30 percent of people identifying as Evangelicals agreed with the following statement

Jesus was a great teacher, but he was not God.​


In 2022, 43 percent of Evangelicals agreed with this statement. The postmodern culture is affecting the thinking of not only people in the pew, but their pastors, and their seminary professors if they had any.

TheLayman
 
30 percent of people identifying as Evangelicals agreed with the following statement

Jesus was a great teacher, but he was not God.​


In 2022, 43 percent of Evangelicals agreed with this statement. The postmodern culture is affecting the thinking of not only people in the pew, but their pastors, and their seminary professors if they had any.

TheLayman
i saw on an evangelical forum
that a bible scholar and academic
(always fawned over) saying
- all in very high language -
that it unsure Christ has deity
or that the resurrection occurred...
or that much else occurred...
he did admit, which is true,
that bible scholars cut and paste
using their natural mind.
 
I think Christ only has one nature, the nature of paradise intended for man.
yes, He did incarnate in the horrible fleshbody...
for us... what a horror for Him...
and then He resurrected in the type of body made by God for us
that we had in paradise, the body He made which was and will be His temple...
and that is NOT this flesh body.

That is wrong. Sorry.

Jesus on earth had to have a body just like Adam had in the Garden before the fall.
It had to be in order to be the perfect substitute to die for mankind's sins.
His body was without sin, just as Adam had been originally created from the hand of God.

When Jesus finished dying for mankind's sins? Then!
He no longer needed to remain as Adam without sin.

After the Cross Jesus' unfallen body did not have to remain as such.
After Jesus was resurrected body of Jesus returned to Heaven and was transformed when He ascended to heaven.
His body then became 'glorified.' A body of heaven. No longer a body of this earth doomed to be destroyed.

His new Heavenly body is glorious and nothing like the perfect bodies of Adam and Eve which you keep longing for.
For the body Jesus is now forever even higher than all the angels!

Hebrews 1:4

So he became as much superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is superior to theirs."

Adam and Eve?
Es nada! Those bodies were created lower than the angels.

Hebrews 2:6-7

But there is a place where someone has testified:

“What is mankind that you are mindful of them,
a son of man that you care for him?
You made them a little lower than the angels;
you crowned them with glory and honor."


So! Stop longing to be like Adam and Eve were!
God is not going to give you anything other than the very best!

Our resurrection bodies are going to be greater than the greatest of all the mightiest angels!


1 Corinthians 2:9

However, as it is written:

“What no eye has seen,
what no ear has heard,
and what no human mind has conceived”—
the things God has prepared for those who love him."


grace and peace my fair lady!
 
I use to believe that years ago. He is wrong since only persons die not natures. Jesus person is Divine. So no one died in the cross with his view.
Isn't it amazing that such a learned person as Sproul could make such a glaring mistake on something so basic. Having a human nature allowed to the Son to experience human death just like all human beings...but it is the person of the Son who died. This is why I said Evangelical theology and Christology has become a dumpster fire.

Other heretical things one hears all the time, how about this one:

Jesus was on the cross and the sky became dark because as Jesus became sin the Father had to turn His face away and for the first time in eternity the Father and Son were separated! Yeah...no they weren't, and the Son did not literally become "sin." It is not possible for them to be separated so pastors stop preaching this heretical nonsense (unless of course you want to own the fact that you have departed from the historic Christian Faith at least insofar as the Trinity and Chalcedon are concerned).

How about: the Son was tempted and had to struggle with sin just like you and I do. Yeah, no, that isn't true either. He was tempted, i.e. tested, but there was no sin in Him, sinning was repugnant to Him because He was divine. Incidentally, I don't think a lot of people understand that His divinity was revealed through His humanity. You don't test a metal to turn it into gold, you test it to see if it is gold. I think it is our post modern culture that makes people want to believe that Jesus struggled with sin for two reasons. First, and oddly, it is because they think it is only "fair." I don't understand what it is that is supposed to be "fair," but I have certainly heard this (and postmodernism thinks everything is somehow supposed to be fair). And secondly, if Jesus had to struggle with sin then I can't be so bad...yeah, whatever, we are that bad and Jesus didn't struggle with sin.

TheLayman
 
Isn't it amazing that such a learned person as Sproul could make such a glaring mistake on something so basic. Having a human nature allowed to the Son to experience human death just like all human beings...but it is the person of the Son who died. This is why I said Evangelical theology and Christology has become a dumpster fire.

Other heretical things one hears all the time, how about this one:

Jesus was on the cross and the sky became dark because as Jesus became sin the Father had to turn His face away and for the first time in eternity the Father and Son were separated! Yeah...no they weren't, and the Son did not literally become "sin." It is not possible for them to be separated so pastors stop preaching this heretical nonsense (unless of course you want to own the fact that you have departed from the historic Christian Faith at least insofar as the Trinity and Chalcedon are concerned).

How about: the Son was tempted and had to struggle with sin just like you and I do. Yeah, no, that isn't true either. He was tempted, i.e. tested, but there was no sin in Him, sinning was repugnant to Him because He was divine. Incidentally, I don't think a lot of people understand that His divinity was revealed through His humanity. You don't test a metal to turn it into gold, you test it to see if it is gold. I think it is our post modern culture that makes people want to believe that Jesus struggled with sin for two reasons. First, and oddly, it is because they think it is only "fair." I don't understand what it is that is supposed to be "fair," but I have certainly heard this (and postmodernism thinks everything is somehow supposed to be fair). And secondly, if Jesus had to struggle with sin then I can't be so bad...yeah, whatever, we are that bad and Jesus didn't struggle with sin.

TheLayman
Amen
 
Hypostatic Union


1
. Jesus is a person. (1 Tim 2:5)

2. Jesus, the Person, has two natures- Divine and human (John 1:1, 14, 1 Timothy 3:16): Divine and human. This is the Hypostatic Union.( Col 2:9, Heb 1:3,2:16)

3. The Communicatio Idiomatum (Communication of the Properties) states that the attributes of His Divine nature and human nature are both ascribed to the one Person of Jesus. So Jesus can exhibit attributes of Divinity (Omnipresence, Omniscience, Omnipotence, . John 2:23, 3:13, 8:58, He was prayed to in Acts 7:59, John 14:13, He was is worshiped Matt 2:2:11, Rev 5:13-14) and at the same time exhibit attributes of His humanity( He was tempted, ate, prayed,wept, grew in wisdom and stature,was anointed,was baptized, the Father was greater, didn’t know the day or the hour of His Return, He cried My God my God why has Thou forsaken Me, He died etc.). The communicatio idiomatum does not mean that any part of the Divine nature was communicated to the human nature.

4. The Man(anthropos) Jesus is what we perceive (if we were there 2000 years ago in Israel) and through the Man we encounter the Divine nature (Jesus knowing all things, is on earth while in heaven, answers prayer, forgiving sins, etc.).

5. The Person of Jesus will always be both Divine and human. (John 1:1,14,20:28, 1 John 5:20, 1 Timothy 2:5) Those who deny this fact are the spirit of antichrist. (1 John 4:1-4,2 John 7)

6. The Divine Nature is within the Trinity.(Father, Son and Holy Spirit)

7. Since the Person of Jesus claims the attributes of Divinity(John 3:13,8:58,Matthew 9:2,12:8), then the Person of Jesus is a member of the Trinity.( John 14-16, Math 28:19)

Anything said of either of Christ's two natures applies to the one Person of Christ, so that is how it is said that Christ died on the cross. The term "hypostatic union" refers to the two natures united in the one Person, so anything said of those two natures in the one Person applies to the whole Person. So we see that the Person of Christ is both God and man. The phrase hypostatic union was adopted by the general council at Chalcedon 451 AD. That council declared that the union of two natures is real (against Arius), not a mere indwelling of God in a man (against Nestorius), with a rational soul (against Apollinaris), and that in Christ’s Divine nature remains unchanged (against Eutyches).

We need to look to the Monothelite Controversy which had to deal with whether there was one or two wills/minds in the person of Christ. The outcome was that there were two; one human and one divine with the human subjected to the divine. The eternal Son of God did not assume a part of a human nature without a mind, without a will, without human activity, but He assumed all the things that were planted in our nature by God.

Now then, to act (or in this case, speak) is the work of a person, but the form or nature is the cause of this action; for each person acts in accord with the form or nature which it has. A difference in causes (natures) produces a difference in effects (actions). Therefore, where there are different natures, there are also different activities. So in the one Person of Christ there are two natural actions, the divine and the human, each of which has its own essential attributes, functions, and actions. Jesus was thirty years old according to His human nature (Luke 3:23); according to His divine nature He could say: "Before Abraham was born, I am" (John 8:58). The question is did both natures know this and communicate it to the Person. The answer is yes because the divine nature with its corresponding divine will willed the human nature to respond in such a fashion in keeping with Christ's office and ministry. In the text regarding Mark 13:32, we have a slightly different situation here. Christ is acting (speaking) from His human nature, but, this time, the divine will does not allow the human will access to this knowledge. For this information is not to be published on earth. Therefore, as man, Christ cannot answer the question. In the works pertaining to the office of Christ as Prophet, Priest, and King both natures act in conjunction with each other, each nature doing what is peculiar to the same. The book of Hebrews goes into great detail with these offices.

hope this helps !!!
In a similar fashion, the Born Again Christian has two natures also - the "Old man" of the flesh, and the "NEW MAN" of the Holy Spirit indwelling. The "Flesh HAS BEEN CRUCIFIED with Jesus, but is still present in us to give it's $.02 worth, and the process of sanctification, hopefully will progressively render the "old man" ineffective as we become conformed to Jesus Image.
 
Hello Matthias,

I agree with you although I don't think anyone needs to be worried about being killed over it anymore. The Evangelical Church, its seminaries and commentaries have been pretty much a dumpster fire with regard to the Historic Christian Faith as found in the early creeds and as they relate to theology proper and Christology (and I mean specifically the incarnation). Evangelicals seem to have some postmodern operating system at times and believe they can call themselves Trinitarians and attach whatever definition and/or meaning they want to that. I had a huge disagreement with a former pastor who actually thought he was teaching Chalcedonian Christology when in fact he was clearly teaching an ontological kenotic Christology (which is also completely incompatible with the doctrine of the Trinity).

And the dumpster fire continues to get worse. According to the State of Theology in 2020, 30 percent of people identifying as Evangelicals agreed with the following statement

Jesus was a great teacher, but he was not God.​


In 2022, 43 percent of Evangelicals agreed with this statement. The postmodern culture is affecting the thinking of not only people in the pew, but their pastors, and their seminary professors if they had any.

TheLayman
@GeneZ @sawdust @synergy @Rockson @Fred @praise_yeshua @TibiasDad

Here is a thread on the topic of the 2 natures in Christ
 
Let the challenges begin...

Synergy... Define "God Man" according to how you see it, please.
As you know already, I already did here with Bible references and you agreed to it:

So I ask again. Now that you agreed that Jesus is a "One God Person", do you still say that:
  1. Jesus (the God Person) experienced "spiritual death"?
  2. God the Father forsook the God Person of Jesus on the Cross?
  3. The bread temptation was an attempt by the devil to stop Jesus from being a man now that you agree that Jesus is always a One God Person, and not a Schizophrenic Dual Personality God & Human Person?
CC: @civic
 
As you know already, I already did here with Bible references and you agreed to it:

So I ask again. Now that you agreed that Jesus is a "One God Person", do you still say that:
  1. Jesus (the God Person) experienced "spiritual death"?
  2. God the Father forsook the God Person of Jesus on the Cross?
  3. The bread temptation was an attempt by the devil to stop Jesus from being a man now that you agree that Jesus is always a One God Person, and not a Schizophrenic Dual Personality God & Human Person?
CC: @civic
I asked you to define it, and you won't.
But insist that I answer, having long forgotten whatever it was you say I understood.

Stay here.
You and me.

Define "God Man."

Then we can discuss..
 
I asked you to define it, and you won't.
But insist that I answer, having long forgotten whatever it was you say I understood.

Stay here.
You and me.

Define "God Man."

Then we can discuss..
The best definitions are derived from Bible verses and that's what I provided. There are no better definitions than that. And on top of that you agreed to them.

As for my questions, will you continue to ignore them? If so, I fully understand why and the reason will be obvious to our audience.
 
The best definitions are derived from Bible verses and that's what I provided. There are no better definitions than that. And on top of that you agreed to them.

As for my questions, will you continue to ignore them? If so, I fully understand why and the reason will be obvious to our audience.



You are not going to give me your definition?

It would be the only fair way I could understand where you are coming from.

So far you gave me nothing to work with definitively, and then accuse me according to your own definition which you wish to keep hidden.

You are being unfair to someone who is asking to better understand you....

I wonder who your audience is?
Could they be a few "like minded" you have made friends with here?

I want truth. So far. You only want your little group to win. That is how you are coming across to me.

It reminds of a Calvinist forum where I was showing that Irresistible Grace was untrue.
They could not define it, but all saw it as obvious according TO THEIR OWN understanding of the Word of God.


,,,,,,,,,,,
 
As you know already, I already did here with Bible references and you agreed to it:

So I ask again. Now that you agreed that Jesus is a "One God Person", do you still say that:
  1. Jesus (the God Person) experienced "spiritual death"?
  2. God the Father forsook the God Person of Jesus on the Cross?
  3. The bread temptation was an attempt by the devil to stop Jesus from being a man now that you agree that Jesus is always a One God Person, and not a Schizophrenic Dual Personality God & Human Person?
CC: @civic
Is this worth it?
 
You are not going to give me your definition?

It would be the only fair way I could understand where you are coming from.

So far you gave me nothing to work with definitively, and then accuse me according to your own definition which you wish to keep hidden.

You are being unfair to someone who is asking to better understand you....

I wonder who your audience is?
Could they be a few "like minded" you have made friends with here?

I want truth. So far. You only want your little group to win. That is how you are coming across to me.

It reminds of a Calvinist forum where I was showing that Irresistible Grace was untrue.
They could not define it, but all saw it as obvious according TO THEIR OWN understanding of the Word of God.


,,,,,,,,,,,
I don't see a clearly defined position from you are all. Just some references from your "college days" while questioning scholarly references. If there is one theological subject that came out of the early church that was clearly defined from the beginning through to the 5th and 6th century it was the doctrine of the Incarnation.
 
I don't see a clearly defined position from you are all. Just some references from your "college days" while questioning scholarly references. If there is one theological subject that came out of the early church that was clearly defined from the beginning through to the 5th and 6th century it was the doctrine of the Incarnation.


Yes.... I even showed (several times) OT passages that showed the Lord of of Israel was always being two natures (Soul and Deity) in union.
In union before any body was provided for the Lord to make Himself become as a man. For, before the Incarnation the Lord Jehovah of Israel functioned as two distinct natures in union. Soul and Deity.

What came of that? It was hosed under the carpet by claiming the second nature was simply an anthropopathism and not really a second nature at all.

I tried.

Yet, I am being pictured as the only one at fault here.

This is a small town. With ideas that demand to remain unchanged no matter what evidence one provides.

I tried because I find it helps me to learn ways to better articulate what I have been blessed to see....
I do not really expect change from closed minds. And they are closed...

But fine. Others will, and have gotten, what I revealed.

It always happens that way...
 
The best definitions are derived from Bible verses and that's what I provided. There are no better definitions than that. And on top of that you agreed to them.

As for my questions, will you continue to ignore them? If so, I fully understand why and the reason will be obvious to our audience.
Does it mean the human nature of Jesus is being God as the human nature?
 
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