The fallacy of eternity being a timeless state.

[Diserner]

Only God is timeless, that is outside of time.

All of creation is in some kind of time.

 

[Jim]

I am of the opinion that much of what has been written about concerning what heaven looks like is termed in descriptions that we can understand in our conceptual capacity.

The New Heavens and the New Earth are very different from what we have now, in that there are no more seas, sun, death, births, or decay in the sense of our experience.

I believe that heaven will be strictly an existence of the spirit involving no physical or corporal existence at all.

If time is the measurement of the space between one reality and a change in that reality, then assuming we are living, mobile people, we would necessarily be here at one point of reference and there at another. The space between these realities would be quantified as time.

I think heaven is and will be for us devoid of the physical features of space and time.

 

[Jim]

Only God is timeless, that is outside of time.

All of creation is in some kind of time.

All physical creation is constrained to exist within time. There is spiritual creation, such as angels, that is outside of time.

 

[TibiasDad]

I believe that heaven will be strictly an existence of the spirit involving no physical or corporal existence at all.

I think heaven is and will be for us devoid of the physical features of space and time.

If Jesus’s body was resurrected physically, and that same body ascended into heaven, then there is necessarily “space” in which that body exists. And if there is activity occurring, then there is a before, during and after “time” to that activity.

Again, when all things are made new, that means “time” may be different in some sense from our current perspective, but we cannot know that until we are there.

There is no logical explanation, given the resurrection of a physical Jesus, to assume no space/time dynamic exists in a New Heaven and New Earth.

Doug

 

[Jim]

If Jesus’s body was resurrected physically, and that same body ascended into heaven, then there is necessarily “space” in which that body exists. And if there is activity occurring, then there is a before, during and after “time” to that activity.

Jesus left the earth in physical bodily form; but there is no indication that He arrived in heaven in that same bodily form. You can believe that if you want; I do not.

Again, when all things are made new, that means “time” may be different in some sense from our current perspective, but we cannot know that until we are there.

Time is a physical measure. Many believe it is the result of the second law of thermodynamics. That is the only law which does not hold for both positive and negative time.

There is no logical explanation, given the resurrection of a physical Jesus, to assume no space/time dynamic exists in a New Heaven and New Earth.

Given that everything in the bible expressing life to come in the new heaven and new earth is given in highly metaphoric descriptions I think that is logic enough to assume the absence of any thing in a physical sense, anything that we experience.

 

[FreeInChrist]

I believe that heaven will be strictly an existence of the spirit involving no physical or corporal existence at all.

I think heaven is and will be for us devoid of the physical features of space and time.

@Jim, while you’ve presented this as a personal belief, it does make claims about what Scripture teaches, so it’s fair to test it against the Bible rather than leave it as opinion.

Your view is understandable, but it doesn’t fully align with what Scripture presents.

The Bible consistently points not to a purely spiritual, non-physical existence, but to a restored, glorified, and still real embodied life.

In 1 Corinthians 15, Paul teaches a resurrection body~not a disembodied spirit. When he calls it a “spiritual body,” that doesn’t mean non-physical; it means a body transformed and governed by the Spirit.

In Luke 24:39, after the resurrection, Jesus said, “a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have.”

Philippians 3:21 also says our bodies will be transformed, not discarded.

And in Revelation 21, we see a new heaven and new earth, which points to a restored creation—not the absence of space, time, or physical reality.

So while there may be a temporary state where the spirit is with the Lord (2 Corinthians 5:8), the final hope presented in Scripture is resurrection and renewal, not permanent disembodiment.

The idea of a purely non-physical eternity seems to come more from philosophical influence than from the Bible itself. Scripture consistently points toward God redeeming His creation, not abandoning it.

The Bible doesn’t teach that eternity is less real or less tangible, it teaches that it will be more complete, with both spirit and a glorified, incorruptible body.

 

[Jim]

@Jim, while you’ve presented this as a personal belief, it does make claims about what Scripture teaches, so it’s fair to test it against the Bible rather than leave it as opinion.

Your view is understandable, but it doesn’t fully align with what Scripture presents.

The Bible consistently points not to a purely spiritual, non-physical existence, but to a restored, glorified, and still real embodied life.

In 1 Corinthians 15, Paul teaches a resurrection body~not a disembodied spirit. When he calls it a “spiritual body,” that doesn’t mean non-physical; it means a body transformed and governed by the Spirit.

In Luke 24:39, after the resurrection, Jesus said, “a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have.”

Philippians 3:21 also says our bodies will be transformed, not discarded.

And in Revelation 21, we see a new heaven and new earth, which points to a restored creation—not the absence of space, time, or physical reality.

So while there may be a temporary state where the spirit is with the Lord (2 Corinthians 5:8), the final hope presented in Scripture is resurrection and renewal, not permanent disembodiment.

The idea of a purely non-physical eternity seems to come more from philosophical influence than from the Bible itself. Scripture consistently points toward God redeeming His creation, not abandoning it.

The Bible doesn’t teach that eternity is less real or less tangible, it teaches that it will be more complete, with both spirit and a glorified, incorruptible body.

All you have to do to convince me of your thinking on this is to provide a reasonably precise and accurate description of what the spiritual body will look like, feel like, sound like, smell like, and what it will be made of.

 

[FreeInChrist]

All you have to do to convince me of your thinking on this is to provide a reasonably precise and accurate description of what the spiritual body will look like, feel like, sound like, smell like, and what it will be made of.

Jim, I will try but at the moment family is here for the weekend and on Monday I am taking my laptop to exchange for a new one so I may not be on here for a week or so.... but Ill certainly see what I can find.

 

[Jim]

Jim, I will try but at the moment family is here for the weekend and on Monday I am taking my laptop to exchange for a new one so I may not be on here for a week or so.... but Ill certainly see what I can find.

I will wish you much, much luck with that.

 

[Predestined]

To be biblical, any answer must be also rational.
We are endowed with reason, just as we are endowed with text of Scriptures.
An answer taken from the text that contradicts reason is not a manifestation of faith, but of superstition: a sheer rejection of God’s gift.

Miracles are not rational or explainable. God is Miraculous and spoke everything into existence ex nihilo.

 

[civic]

Miracles are not rational or explainable. God is Miraculous and spoke everything into existence ex nihilo.

Amen !!!

 

[TibiasDad]

Given that everything in the bible expressing life to come in the new heaven and new earth is given in highly metaphoric descriptions I think that is logic enough to assume the absence of any thing in a physical sense, anything that we experience.

There is nothing metaphorical in John or Isaiah’s words.

Isa65: 17See, I will create
new heavens and a new earth.
The former things will not be remembered,
nor will they come to mind.
18But be glad and rejoice forever
in what I will create,
for I will create Jerusalem to be a delight
and its people a joy.
19I will rejoice over Jerusalem
and take delight in my people;
the sound of weeping and of crying
will be heard in it no more.


Rev21:1Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth,” for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. 2I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. 3And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Look! God’s dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. 4‘He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death’ or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.”

Doug

 

[TibiasDad]

Jesus left the earth in physical bodily form; but there is no indication that He arrived in heaven in that same bodily form. You can believe that if you want; I do not.

There is no indication that there was any change on the way to heaven either. So without an indication of change during that ascent it is a safer assumption and bet that he arrived in heaven with that same physical body.


Doug

 

[Jim]

There is no indication that there was any change on the way to heaven either. So without an indication of change during that ascent it is a safer assumption and bet that he arrived in heaven with that same physical body.


Doug

There is no "physical" in heaven. Physical is the stuff of the creation of this universe.

What do you mean, "on the way to heaven"? Where did Jesus go? Heaven is not within this creation.

There is nothing metaphorical in John or Isaiah’s words.

Isa65: 17See, I will create
new heavens and a new earth.
The former things will not be remembered,
nor will they come to mind.
18But be glad and rejoice forever
in what I will create,
for I will create Jerusalem to be a delight
and its people a joy.
19I will rejoice over Jerusalem
and take delight in my people;
the sound of weeping and of crying
will be heard in it no more.


Rev21:1Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth,” for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. 2I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. 3And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Look! God’s dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. 4‘He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death’ or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.”

Doug

Do you think "the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband" is not metaphor?

Or how about the following:

Rev 21:12 It had a great, high wall, with twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and on the gates the names of the twelve tribes of the sons of Israel were inscribed-- 13 on the east three gates, on the north three gates, on the south three gates, and on the west three gates. 14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb. 15 And the one who spoke with me had a measuring rod of gold to measure the city and its gates and walls. 16 The city lies foursquare, its length the same as its width. And he measured the city with his rod, 12,000 stadia. Its length and width and height are equal. 17 He also measured its wall, 144 cubits by human measurement, which is also an angel's measurement. 18 The wall was built of jasper, while the city was pure gold, clear as glass. 19 The foundations of the wall of the city were adorned with every kind of jewel. The first was jasper, the second sapphire, the third agate, the fourth emerald, 20 the fifth onyx, the sixth carnelian, the seventh chrysolite, the eighth beryl, the ninth topaz, the tenth chrysoprase, the eleventh jacinth, the twelfth amethyst. 21 And the twelve gates were twelve pearls, each of the gates made of a single pearl, and the street of the city was pure gold, transparent as glass. 22 And I saw no temple in the city, for its temple is the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb. 23 And the city has no need of sun or moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and its lamp is the Lamb. 24 By its light will the nations walk, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it, 25 and its gates will never be shut by day--and there will be no night there. 26 They will bring into it the glory and the honor of the nations.

I think that entire passage is metaphorical. Why would gold, jasper, sapphire etc, be of any value in the new Jerusalem?

 

[TibiasDad]

I think that entire passage is metaphorical. Why would gold, jasper, sapphire etc, be of any value in the new Jerusalem?

Because it is God’s creation for his children. In this new reality, the things of great value in the present world are simply building materials, albeit beautiful ones. It will be a real city, but the physics of the new Earth are completely different and unsustainable in our present reality: 1400 mile square walls (highth and width) would be in outer space in our physical universe (Outer space is only 62 miles high).

The new universe doesn’t have the same physics of our present universe. Thus, it is new!


Doug