The Eternal Son

[Red Baker]

Only God is eternal. If the Word was God in the beginning, then his being existent in at the point of the beginning means that he was existing in eternity before creation began. Thus he is necessarily existent!

Doug, I agree 100%, but only as God, not the Son. Jesus was BOTH man and God in one complex person!

 

[Red Baker]

@Runningman

Revelation 17:14, John provided a step-by-step chronologically-ordered account of what he saw

Revelation was not written in chronological order. I just got back in, I will reply to this in morning.

 

[civic]

Doug, I agree 100%, but only as God, not the Son. Jesus was BOTH man and God in one complex person!

So you deny the Father was God before Jesus was born

 

[TibiasDad]

Doug, I agree 100%, but only as God, not the Son. Jesus was BOTH man and God in one complex person!

Being “a son” is a relational status with another person. God the Father says “This is my Son…”, and there is no reason to read into that statement any thought of this being a new status.

The omniscience of God necessarily has always known the plan of salvation from before the foundation of the world (eternity past), so there has never been a time when the Father has not known him as his son.


Doug

 

[DavidTree]

Personification

Matthew 5
14You are the light of the world.

And you cannot qualify as the "light of the world" until you submit unto God thru the LORD Jesus Christ and
are filled with the Holy Spirit.

You cannot go to the FATHER for the Holy Spirit.

The FATHER will only receive those who come to CHRIST = "no one comes to the FATHER but thru ME/JESUS"

 

[DavidTree]

@civic

The Eternal Sonship is a dogma that is discredited logically by self contradiction. To contend that Jesus was eternally begotten is a manifest contradiction of term. We ask: can an object begin and not begun? No. The saying within itself is most absurd. Why do not people consider this, and understand it? Acts 28:25-27 is the answer.

Civic, you need to consider carefully: Eternity is that which has no beginning, nor stands in reference to time ~ Son supposes time, generation, and father; time is also antedent to such generation~therefore, the conjunction of the two terms: Son and eternity~is "absolutely impossible" as they imply different and opposite ideal. Words must have meaning, or else, how can we communicate with each other on a level where we can understand each other? I understand eternity and I also understand the word son, and so do my readers, and we should know how to use each word properly, without confusing the meaning of either.

The Word was indeed God, period....the "Word was NOT begotten" by God, Jesus the Son of God was God's only begotten Son, in the manner in which he was begotten around two thousand years ago. The Word joined Himself to the tabernacle of the Son of God and thus God was manifest in the flesh in the person of Jesus Christ, who was the express image of the Living God in the flesh...Jesus, is the ONLY God angels or man will ever see, since God is a Spirit that lives in eternity, which no man or angels can ever see and live.

1st Timothy 6:15,16​

“Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen."

Only in face Jesus Christ can we behold the glory of God!

2 Corinthians 4:6​

“For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.”

To contend that Jesus was eternally begotten is a manifest contradiction of term.

CORRECT

Genesis 1:1-3 and John 1:1 do not say "in the beginning was the Son"

It is only at the moment that Mary was overshadowed by the Holy Spirit and then gave birth to "IMMANUEL".

When IMMANUEL was born, the Eternal Word that was God became flesh = the only begotten of the FATHER

The OT are Prophecies of a virgin giving birth to Immanuel = God with us
Psalm 2:7 is a Prophecy = "Today I have begotten You, thou art My Son"

 

[DavidTree]

Revelation 19 doesn't say Jesus is the rider on the white hourse. The Bible is just vague enough to be interpretted so many ways about several points. This is probably how you all are able to maintain plausibility deniability about the trinity doctrine. There is just enough obscurity to use as leverage to hide behind seemingly endless theological smoke screens.

Do you want your sins washed away by the LORD???

 

[civic]

Being “a son” is a relational status with another person. God the Father says “This is my Son…”, and there is no reason to read into that statement any thought of this being a new status.

The omniscience of God necessarily has always known the plan of salvation from before the foundation of the world (eternity past), so there has never been a time when the Father has not known him as his son.


Doug

Amen

 

[DavidTree]

Being “a son” is a relational status with another person. God the Father says “This is my Son…”, and there is no reason to read into that statement any thought of this being a new status.

The omniscience of God necessarily has always known the plan of salvation from before the foundation of the world (eternity past), so there has never been a time when the Father has not known him as his son.


Doug

Of course it is a New Status since the Word was God and was PURE Spirit.

Only when God came to earth as a man did the New Status of the WORD becoming flesh = Immanuel, take effect.

It is essential to understand Isaiah 46:10 and the OT declarations of this Counsel which are reverberated in Revelation.

I declare the end from the beginning, and from ancient times what is still to come.
I say, ‘My purpose will stand, and all My good pleasure I will accomplish.’

 

[Red Baker]

@civic

So you deny the Father was God before Jesus was born

Jesus in His eternal deity as God was the everlasting Father, of all things, do you reject this?

Isaiah 9:6
"For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace."

Colossians 1:15-17
“Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.”

The eternal Sonship theory, robs Jesus Christ of being before all things, I do not care how you package this and teach this corrupt theory, you will not be able to escape this corruption of Jesus' deity of being before all all things, which makes him the God of Genesis! You are making him a begotten God, the heresy of the JW reprobates, and do not believe you desire to do that, but you are.

 

[Red Baker]

@TibiasDad

The omniscience of God necessarily has always known the plan of salvation from before the foundation of the world (eternity past), so there has never been a time when the Father has not known him as his son.

Doug, as far as God's eternal purposes, yes Jesus and the church has always been in his purposes, each were elected, loved, and known. I may say more tomorrow, I could not sleep so I got up[, but heading back very soon.

 

[Runningman]

Rev 19:11I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and wages war. 12His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself. 13He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God. 14The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean. 15Coming out of his mouth is a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. “He will rule them with an iron scepter.” He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty. 16On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written:

KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.

Who else could it be talking about with names like those in bold?

Doug

Check comment #719. Jesus isn't the rider on the white horse in the context between Revelation chapter 17 and 19.

 

[Runningman]

Do you want your sins washed away by the LORD???

Already done. How about you?

 

[Runningman]

And you cannot qualify as the "light of the world" until you submit unto God thru the LORD Jesus Christ and
are filled with the Holy Spirit.

You cannot go to the FATHER for the Holy Spirit.

The FATHER will only receive those who come to CHRIST = "no one comes to the FATHER but thru ME/JESUS"

Obviously Jesus is just as much the light of the world as his disciples are, as he clearly taught, yet neither of them are the light in the same sense God is. God is the one who gives light, people like Jesus and his disciples are those who received it. Don't you think Jesus practice what he preaches? The same laws, rules, commands, covenant and teachings he learend and obeyed are the same things he taught to his disciples to obey.

 

[Dizerner]

Check comment #719. Jesus isn't the rider on the white horse in the context between Revelation chapter 17 and 19.

It's both a different scene, and there is no presumption the Lamb stayed in the same place, it makes no sense at all.

 

[Dizerner]

Already done. How about you?

You have trusted in Christ's suffering to atone for your sins?

 

[Red Baker]

@Runningman

Beginning at Revelation 17:14, John provided a step-by-step chronologically-ordered account of what he saw, after Jesus was on earth, leading right up to the rider in heaven. Jesus on earth isn't in the same location as the rider in heaven.

The Revelation of Jesus Christ, the King of kings, and Lord of lords, was not written in a step by step chronological order from 4:1- until Revelation 20:9; which is easily to prove since the world comes to an end in Revelation 6:17! Most chapters bewtween Revelation 4:1 to Revelation 20:9, gives to us "several" bird's eye view of that which takes place from Christ's death and resurrection to his second coming to judge the wicked and cast them into the lake of fire, which will be this earth when it and all the wicked are destroyed by fire in the last day of the judgement of the great God, Jesus Christ, who is the express image of His father.

So your point is without any scriptural support by trying to say, that Revelation 17:4 is not the same Lord of lord as Revelation 19:16.

Revelation 17:14
“These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.”

Revelation 19:16​

“And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.”

They both are the same person as this verse:

1st Timothy 6:14-16​

“That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.”

You will meet him sooner than you think or desire to do, since you reject him as who He truly is! Your doctrine is antichrist and will perish with you as you read those words: KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS!

Revelation 18:16-24~And saying, Alas, alas, that great city, that was clothed in fine linen, and purple, and scarlet, and decked with gold, and precious stones, and pearls! For in one hour so great riches is come to nought. And every shipmaster, and all the company in ships, and sailors, and as many as trade by sea, stood afar off, And cried when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, What city is like unto this great city! And they cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and wailing, saying, Alas, alas, that great city, wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of her costliness! for in one hour is she made desolate. Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her. And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all. And the voice of harpers, and musicians, and of pipers, and trumpeters, shall be heard no more at all in thee; and no craftsman, of whatsoever craft he be, shall be found any more in thee; and the sound of a millstone shall be heard no more at all in thee; And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived. And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth."

This part of Mystery Babylon its commerce and entertainment is destroyed by the coming of the KING of KINGS and LORD of LORDS when this earth, (which IS Mystery Babylon with its false religions which was destroyed first in Revelation 17:16,17; and it entertainment and commerce ~ Revelation 18.) comes to its end when Mystery Babylon has totally fallen and is no more.

 

[civic]

@civic

Jesus in His eternal deity as God was the everlasting Father, of all things, do you reject this?

Isaiah 9:6
"For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace."

Colossians 1:15-17
“Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.”

The eternal Sonship theory, robs Jesus Christ of being before all things, I do not care how you package this and teach this corrupt theory, you will not be able to escape this corruption of Jesus' deity of being before all all things, which makes him the God of Genesis! You are making him a begotten God, the heresy of the JW reprobates, and do not believe you desire to do that, but you are.

Jesus is not the Father thats oneness /modalism heresy.

 

[Runningman]

It's both a different scene, and there is no presumption the Lamb stayed in the same place, it makes no sense at all.

There is no presumption in Revelation 17-19 that the Lamb changed locations nor does it invite anyone to assume he did. If the Bible is silent, then the general rule of thumb is be silent. What was revealed is the Lamb is on earth and the rider is in heaven. Furthermore, the descriptions of the rider in heaven don't match the descriptions of the Lamb.

 

[Red Baker]

@civic

Jesus is not the Father thats oneness /modalism heresy.

Civic, in one true biblical sense, he is according to Isaiah 9:6, if you think not, then please, give your understanding of Isaiah 9:6.

In one true biblical sense, Jesus according to his human nature is the Son of God! But, as God of Genesis 1:1 he is the everlasting Father of all things. If you reject this, then please give your understanding by all means, I want to hear it.

If you refuse to speak concerning Isa. 9:6, then you do not have the right to call my understanding a heresy for it is far from that.

The Lord our God is ONE God, manifest as three only according to the work of redemption for God's elect.