The early church fathers were important to us for four reasons:

City of God, Augustine - an amazing display of contradictions, speculation and invention. There are some interesting details and facts but the theological assumptions contradict each other, always lean towards situating God's city 'upon this earth'. Where he begins by acknowledging the City of God is not the same city, here and in the Free Choice text, he starts to lose those distinctions and in Free Choice often frames the concepts of law, society, 'karma' etc, on Pagan bases. Since that is what he was steeped in.
 
For example, in Free choice, his banter at the start about recollection, and about sin as Lack.

That is 1000x plato. Dialogues discussing concepts in Augustine's free will text are Phaedrus, Phaedo and more. He cannot simply listen to God and read God's word, he admits himself to use and want to use, that Platonic fundament.
 

Augustine of Hippo: A Biography - Peter Brown, gives lots of footnotes and citations explaining my last two posts, easily found sources and references, lays out the entire life of augustine​


On Free Choice of the Will, Augustine - explains explicitly the connection of platonic forms to God, i.e., the forms are attributes of God.​


De Trinitate, Augustine - Explains in many places how platonic forms and aristotelian substance are God.

The Confessions, Augustine - explains why he know can be a christian thanks to the bishop Ambrose and how he weaves greek philosophy into it all so well.
Thanks I always enjoy your insight into that period of time in the early church. You have allot to offer about those unbiblical influences in the church
 
Yes the influence of platonism, manacheism/ Gnosticism and Greek philosophy plus paganism is what augustine married with Christianity to form his new religion that was bought hook, line and sinker and still believed by many in the church.

According to the history of Gnosticism...

The Father of Gnosticism is : "Valentinus".... who , before he became deceived theologically was a student of one of Paul's students....So the History seems to indicate.

Valentinus almost became a POPE... and one history says, he turned down the position...... and one history says he lost by a few votes.
 
According to the history of Gnosticism...

The Father of Gnosticism is : "Valentinus".... who , before he became deceived theologically was a student of one of Paul's students....So the History seems to indicate.

Valentinus almost became a POPE... and one history says, he turned down the position...... and one history says he lost by a few votes.
Check this out :)

 
The catholic church is highly syncretic, such that many bishops and officials, even in medieval times, admitted that understanding god was evolutionary (I have quotes but would need to find them in my lecture notes and I don't have time today) and that plato was probably a proto christian and most likely religion was being revealed. At the institution where I was it was common knowlege that RCC is Augustinian, and that Plato is the first monotheist. This is the same RCC does for pagan native religions, the terms of christianity are overlaid, just as Augustine did, and the new converts continue to practice their worship to various gods.
 
For me, I have dropped out of belief in any RCC councils, decisions about what books are valid, and other RCC decrees on serious theological topics. These things have to be studied anew. The reformation failed.
 
Where did edited "mistreat" you?

What is this Forum? A hierarchical dictatorship?
please do not discuss other posters, if you have an issue report it to the moderators- predestined and administrator. That is what they are here for and I don't like getting involved in those areas.

The forum has some basic rules, please read them here. Everyone who joined agreed to them.


Members of Berean Apologetic Ministry forum are considerate, motivated by love and not hate, and they respect one another. Because our members are considerate, loving, and respectful, they do not make overly provocative posts, posts which seek to annoy or cause disruption, or posts which personally attack other members out of anger and frustration.

Our members desire to contribute in a positive and loving manner so that this Forum will display the gracious love of God. The above motto on our forum is for the benefit of this community to have a safe place where all faiths and people are welcomed to ask questions, receive answers and express their views freely without hinderance or concern of retaliation. We value your religious freedoms of expression and ideas.

Rules List:

1a.
No vulgarity, profanity, name calling, or slang expression(s) that could be interpreted as a suggestion of impropriety or generally regarded as demeaning in nature. (Ephesians 5:3-5)

1b.No abusive, insulting, or derogatory language. (Colossians 3:5, 8)

1c. No attacks on another poster's religious beliefs, race, national origin, or gender.

1d. No chats that deteriorate into petty bickering, gossip, backbiting, or argumentative bantering.

2. No Flaming, Goading, Gaslighting or Harassment.

2a. All members should be treated with the utmost respect and courtesy at all times following the rules of civil discourse.

2b. No insults are allowed. Included in this are all forms of flaming, harassment, and trolling/goading as determined at the discretion of the Berean Board Team. Trolling/Goading is defined as repeated attempts through the use of images, cartoons, smileys or text that is designed to be explicitly demeaning, patronizing, embarrassing, or otherwise upsetting to a member or group of members in the community.

2c. This further includes making false statements or accusations about a member.
1h. Sarcasm is not included under this rule.

2d-Do not attack another member's character in any way. Address the post content, not the member's character, family, denominational affiliation or any other subject that may be perceived as a personal attack by the Berean Board team and is not germane to the topic or post at hand.

2e-Do not state or imply that another member or group of members who have identified themselves as Christian are not Christians. Please privately contact the Berean Board Team to voice your concern and not in public.

2f-If a member requests the cessation of all personal contact, then please respect that member's wish.

2g- when a thread starts becoming heated, our staff may edit any offending posts that are targeted negatively toward another member or otherwise disrupt the flow. A staff member may address you in the offending thread or in Private Message. You may be sent a system notification with a brief description of why the message was deleted from the staff member who removed your post.


3. No soliciting

3a
. Please limit your posts to 10K characters or less and do not copy & paste large amounts of content.

3b. No soc accounts which will result in a permanent ban from the forum.

3c. 1 link per post, 1 video per thread and only 2 new threads per day for members.

4. Copy and paste of large amounts of text.

4a
. Feel free to copy and paste your own writings. But please limit the amount of copy and paste of text from websites and include a link for members to read the rest of the article. What would be ideal would be one paragraph and then the link to the rest of the information.

4b. Threads started by members or posts are not to be considered as a member's thread or otherwise "owned".

4c. When quoting another poster do not change their content or words which will result in a temporary ban or vacation from the forum.

4d. Do not plagiarize. If its not your work quote or reference the source material you are posting.

If you have any questions or concerns private message one of the administrators.
 
Also note that a pope's adoption of the OT/NT divide, which of course opened the door to other divisions of the various things God says in either, as if they were different, was based on Marcion's initial division. Marcion hated the OT 'god' and preferred the NT and it is he would made that division, which now all Christians accept en passant.
 
Would you see "the logos" as a platonic form?

Why do you think platonic forms are inherently bad?
Depending on how it is used Dizerner.
The platonic forms are a complicated subject but, in my estimation, based on my own extensive research,
are NOT Christian concepts and do not correlate to God or His attributes whatsoever.
 
Logos is a fine word to use, but the context in its use is important. Often it is used philosophically even in Christian forums, and in those cases, many times carries platonic baggage.
 
Also note that a pope's adoption of the OT/NT divide, which of course opened the door to other divisions of the various things God says in either, as if they were different, was based on Marcion's initial division.

A pope who accepted the inspiration of the OT based his division on Marcion?

I really find that hard to believe.
 
Would you see "the logos" as a platonic form?

Why do you think platonic forms are inherently bad?
interesting and debatable topic with the logos. PErsonally I reject the idea, thought, concept or impersonal aspect taught by some with logos and go with the pesonal logos who is the living Word.
 
please do not discuss other posters, if you have an issue report it to the moderators- predestined and administrator. That is what they are here for and I don't like getting involved in those areas.

The forum has some basic rules, please read them here. Everyone who joined agreed to them.


Members of Berean Apologetic Ministry forum are considerate, motivated by love and not hate, and they respect one another. Because our members are considerate, loving, and respectful, they do not make overly provocative posts, posts which seek to annoy or cause disruption, or posts which personally attack other members out of anger and frustration.

Our members desire to contribute in a positive and loving manner so that this Forum will display the gracious love of God. The above motto on our forum is for the benefit of this community to have a safe place where all faiths and people are welcomed to ask questions, receive answers and express their views freely without hinderance or concern of retaliation. We value your religious freedoms of expression and ideas.

Rules List:

1a.
No vulgarity, profanity, name calling, or slang expression(s) that could be interpreted as a suggestion of impropriety or generally regarded as demeaning in nature. (Ephesians 5:3-5)

1b.No abusive, insulting, or derogatory language. (Colossians 3:5, 8)

1c. No attacks on another poster's religious beliefs, race, national origin, or gender.

1d. No chats that deteriorate into petty bickering, gossip, backbiting, or argumentative bantering.

2. No Flaming, Goading, Gaslighting or Harassment.

2a. All members should be treated with the utmost respect and courtesy at all times following the rules of civil discourse.

2b. No insults are allowed. Included in this are all forms of flaming, harassment, and trolling/goading as determined at the discretion of the Berean Board Team. Trolling/Goading is defined as repeated attempts through the use of images, cartoons, smileys or text that is designed to be explicitly demeaning, patronizing, embarrassing, or otherwise upsetting to a member or group of members in the community.

2c. This further includes making false statements or accusations about a member.
1h. Sarcasm is not included under this rule.

2d-Do not attack another member's character in any way. Address the post content, not the member's character, family, denominational affiliation or any other subject that may be perceived as a personal attack by the Berean Board team and is not germane to the topic or post at hand.

2e-Do not state or imply that another member or group of members who have identified themselves as Christian are not Christians. Please privately contact the Berean Board Team to voice your concern and not in public.

2f-If a member requests the cessation of all personal contact, then please respect that member's wish.

2g- when a thread starts becoming heated, our staff may edit any offending posts that are targeted negatively toward another member or otherwise disrupt the flow. A staff member may address you in the offending thread or in Private Message. You may be sent a system notification with a brief description of why the message was deleted from the staff member who removed your post.


3. No soliciting

3a
. Please limit your posts to 10K characters or less and do not copy & paste large amounts of content.

3b. No soc accounts which will result in a permanent ban from the forum.

3c. 1 link per post, 1 video per thread and only 2 new threads per day for members.

4. Copy and paste of large amounts of text.

4a
. Feel free to copy and paste your own writings. But please limit the amount of copy and paste of text from websites and include a link for members to read the rest of the article. What would be ideal would be one paragraph and then the link to the rest of the information.

4b. Threads started by members or posts are not to be considered as a member's thread or otherwise "owned".

4c. When quoting another poster do not change their content or words which will result in a temporary ban or vacation from the forum.

4d. Do not plagiarize. If its not your work quote or reference the source material you are posting.

If you have any questions or concerns private message one of the administrators.
Close my account. Edited
Thanks
J.
 
the development and provenance of the 'platonic forms' are shown in both rg vedas and egyptian hieroglyphs and in Greek philosophy. That development is NOT pretty and yes those texts mention God and what they think of Him. However, going into that is a topic unto itself and would take this afield, plus opening to the concept of 'other ancient texts'. When in fact theologians has been relying on those 'other texts' in the form of Greek terms and methods and questions... since Medieval times.
 
Back
Top Bottom