And so you do.
The butchering of John 1:1 by JW anti-Trinitarian Translators
- Thread starter synergy
- Start date
You tip your hat for @Keiw1 allowing himself to add indefinite articles within verses where there is no indefinite articles in the Greek Originals? Seriously? This disregard of the Greek language is the basis of the JW faith and many other heresies. Do you mind revealing your beliefs in this matter?As a bystander, i'm sorry to say Keiw1 suprised me in that debate. As it got further on, I was sat here chucking as there was a response for everything posed. I must admit, I wasn't expecting that. I've since researched parts of this myself and I tip my hat to him for some of the points raised. I'm going to look into it further. It amused me that when things got too tricky Synergy's composure crumbled and his frustration became apparent and he attacked grammar, I was sat here chuckling because Keiw1 didn't bite and continued to respond with answers.
All credit to all of you for your research.
Reading this made me a little gutted though to be honest... there's so much confusion around the translation of the Bible, it's clearly very divisive. I'm not sure anyone can be certain on exact wording, we are ultimately at the mercy of so called scholars, yet translation work isn't easy and is open to interpretation.
I can't help but think of Job and his "comforters"... They all had a knowledge of God but had different attitudes etc. God ultimately forgave them all. I suspect in the end, we will all be afforded that if we search for God with an honest heart. My thoughts are anyone with a faith deserves credit and should be applauded. I do respect JWs because knocking on doors can't be easy. I couldn't do it.
I really enjoyed that. It put a smile on my face. Thanks guys.
Johann
Well-known member
And thanks be to God-Calvinists can now express their beliefs on this forum without fear of being unfairly criticized or 'bashed'.
And no, I'm not a Calvinist and neither are they-we are followers of Christ Jesus, led by the Spirit.
J.
The Greeks did not write indefinite articles in their written language, One had to know where they go. The same with commas. So let's see your PROOF the JW,s are wrong. Otherwise you are just grasping at straws if you cannot back your words.
What!?!?
Examples of Greek Singular Indefinite Articles, all of them translate to “one” or "a":
– Masculine: ένας
– Feminine: μία
– Neuter: ένα
Examples of Plural Indefinite Articles, all of them translate to “several”
– Masculine: μερικοί
– Feminine: μερικές
– Neuter: μερικά
You are a typical JW, totally ignorant of the Greek Language.
None of the Greek Indefinite Articles are in John 1:1. Do you understand? So why do you insert English Indefinite Articles in your English Translation for John 1:1? I'm sure you won't be able to directly and correctly answer my question.
It's all about "Love your brother" the love of brothers for each other; the love of fellow Christians for one another, all being children of the same Father in a special sense.
Johann
Well-known member
No I do not, I hope we all do the best we can.
Brothers and sisters, do not slander one another. Anyone who speaks against a brother or sister or judges them speaks against the law and judges it. When you judge the law, you are not keeping it, but sitting in judgment on it. James 4:11
People who feel insecure often judge and criticize others in order to feel better about themselves.
In Matthew 7:1–2, Jesus warns us against judging others: “Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.”
At least 20 translations in history by Greek scholars put a god at John 1:1--Did those Greek scholars not know the language better than you? Could you translate the whole NT from Greek to English?What!?!?
Examples of Greek Singular Indefinite Articles, all of them translate to “one” or "a":
– Masculine: ένας
– Feminine: μία
– Neuter: ένα
Examples of Plural Indefinite Articles, all of them translate to “several”
– Masculine: μερικοί
– Feminine: μερικές
– Neuter: μερικά
You are a typical JW, totally ignorant of the Greek Language.
None of the Greek Indefinite Articles are in John 1:1. Do you understand? So why do you insert English Indefinite Articles in your English Translation for John 1:1? I'm sure you won't be able to directly and correctly answer my question.
Peterlag
Well-known member
It seems difficult for people to understand that John 1:1 is introducing the Gospel of John, and not the Book of Genesis. The topic of John is God (the Father, the only God) at work in the ministry of the man Jesus of Nazareth, not the creation of rocks, trees and stars.
So you agree that the Greek language has indefinite articles. We're making progress. Next step is to expose everyone who intentionally promotes lies about the Greek language. Tell me the names and credentials of your 20 translators and let's expose them one by one.
Peterlag
Well-known member
Adam is called a “type” of Jesus Christ...
(Romans 5:14) The word translated as “type” in many English versions is the translation of the Greek word tupos (τύπος) which can be defined as “a type, pattern, model, or example of something else.” Although the KJV translates tuposas “figure” most of the more modern versions say “pattern” (NIV), “prototype” (HCSB), or “type” (ESV, NAB, NASB). Adam was a type, prototype, or pattern of Christ because he was fully human and began without a sin nature—and Jesus was the same: fully human and made without a sin nature. The reason no other human male after Adam could be a “type” of Christ is that we are all born with a sin nature. Adam could not be a “type” of Christ if Jesus was 100% man and 100% God because Adam did not have a “God-nature.”
(Romans 5:14) The word translated as “type” in many English versions is the translation of the Greek word tupos (τύπος) which can be defined as “a type, pattern, model, or example of something else.” Although the KJV translates tuposas “figure” most of the more modern versions say “pattern” (NIV), “prototype” (HCSB), or “type” (ESV, NAB, NASB). Adam was a type, prototype, or pattern of Christ because he was fully human and began without a sin nature—and Jesus was the same: fully human and made without a sin nature. The reason no other human male after Adam could be a “type” of Christ is that we are all born with a sin nature. Adam could not be a “type” of Christ if Jesus was 100% man and 100% God because Adam did not have a “God-nature.”
Last edited:
Peterlag
Well-known member
Data On The Trinity
"The doctrine of the Trinity is not a biblical doctrine... it's the product of theological reflection." - The Christian Doctrine of God Trinitarian. E. Brunner, 1949, p. 236.
“Trinity is not a biblical doctrine" - New Bible Dictionary, J. Douglas, F. Bruce, 1982, p. 1298.
“Scholars generally agree that there is no doctrine of the Trinity as such in either the Old or the New Testament” - The Harper Collins Encyclopedia of Catholicism, 1995, p. 564.
“The Bible has no statements or speculations concerning a trinitary deity." - Encyclopedia Britannica, volume 12, p. 383, 1979.
“Three coequal partners in the Godhead cannot be clearly detected within the confines of the Bible. It's important to avoid reading the Trinity into places where it does not appear." -Oxford Companion To the Bible, Bruce Metzger, M. Coogan, p. 782-3.
“The doctrine of the Trinity is not present in biblical thought... it goes beyond, and even distorts, what the Bible says about God.” - A Contemporary Interpretation of the Trinity - God in Three Persons: Prof. M. Erickson, Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary,p. 12, 20.
“The belief (in a Trinity-God) was reached only in the 4th and 5th centuries AD and hence is not explicitly and formally a biblical belief." -Dictionary of The Bible, 1995, (trinitarian) J. Mckenzie, p. 899.
“The doctrine of the Trinity was formulated in the post-biblical period." - Harper’s Bible Dictionary, 1985.
“In the New Testament there is no direct suggestion of a doctrine of the Trinity." - An Encyclopedia of Religion, V. Ferm (ed.), 1945, p. 344.
“No passage of Scripture discusses the threeness of God." - The New International Version. Disciples Study Bible, p. 173, note for Mt. 3:16.
“The Bible does not state that there is one God who exists in three persons” - Basic Theology, Prof. C. Ryrie, p. 89.
“The Bible does not teach the doctrine of the Trinity” -Christian Doctrine, Prof. S. Guthrie, Columbia Theol. Seminary, 1994,p. 92.
“The doctrine of the Trinity cannot be justified on the basis of Scripture. Indeed it's hard to imagine Jesus speaking in such terms"- An Outline of Biblical Theology, Prof. M. Burrows, Yale Divinity School, p. 81.
“The doctrine of God as existing in three persons and one substance is not demonstrable by scriptural proofs." - Hastings Dictionary Of The Bible, 1898.
“There is in the Old Testament no indication of interior distinctions inthe God-head. And there is no doctrine of the Trinity in the New Testament” - The Known Bible and its Defense, Rev. M. Hembre, 1933, p. 25.
The above is from volume one of a two volume paper called...
Sleight Of Mind
by: Steven Blake
A redundant post of material for the denier's bible. In the preface it could say that the denier's bible may especially appeal to hyper-literalists. Any more contributions for this?
Horatius
Member
Truth On the Trinity
Probably the most widely held Christian view of God is known as the “trinity.” This popular belief teaches that the Godhead consists of three distinct persons who have existed together from eternity past and are named the Father, the Son (Jesus Christ), and the Holy Spirit. Each one possesses original, underived, and unborrowed life. They are all equally God and are one in nature, character, and purpose. They are not three “gods,” but one God in a combination of the three distinct persons.
The names of God reveal attributes of His nature. God has a long-established habit of using various names to describe a person’s character. Jacob earned his name that means “swindler” when he practiced deception to steal his father’s blessing away from his brother Esau (Genesis 27:35, 36). At his conversion, Jacob wrestled with the angel and insisted on the blessing of God. Then his name was changed to “Israel,” which means “a prince with God” (Genesis 32:26–28).
Likewise, the names for God found in Genesis and elsewhere tell us volumes about our Creator. “And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness” (Genesis 1:26). The Hebrew word here for God is Elohim. It is a plural noun that is used more than 2,700 times in the Old Testament. This means that inspired authors preferred to use Elohim about 10 times more than the singular form “El” when they described God. Even in the Old Testament book of Daniel, we see a picture of the Father and the Son as two separate persons. “I was watching in the night visions, And behold, One like the Son of Man, Coming with the clouds of heaven! He came to the Ancient of Days, And they brought Him near before Him” (Daniel 7:13). The Son of man, Jesus, is seen coming before the Ancient of Days—who is, obviously, God the Father.
The New Testament writings are sprinkled with this concept of one God with three united, fully divine persons. The apostle Paul wrote that there were three divine persons: “There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all” (Ephesians 4:4–6).
Paul frequently referred to the three separate persons of the Godhead. “The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all” (2 Corinthians 13:14). “How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?” (Hebrews 9:14).
Revelation opens by introducing the three persons of the Godhead. “From the seven Spirits who are before His throne, and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler over the kings of the earth. To Him who loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood, and has made us kings and priests to His God and Father, to Him be glory and dominion forever and ever” (Revelation 1:4–6 NKJV).
In addition, we clearly see three distinct persons at the baptism of Jesus. “And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased” (Matthew 3:16, 17).
If Jesus is the only person in the Godhead, where did the voice come from that declared, “This is my beloved Son”? Did He trisect Himself into a voice from heaven, the dove wafting down through the sky, and His body on the bank of the river? No. This was not simply a clever act of holy smoke and mirrors, but rather a regal reunion revealing the truth of the trinity. And on top of this, it is through the shared authority of these three persons that we are commissioned to baptize. “Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost” (Matthew 28:19).
Doug Batchelor, The Trinity
Probably the most widely held Christian view of God is known as the “trinity.” This popular belief teaches that the Godhead consists of three distinct persons who have existed together from eternity past and are named the Father, the Son (Jesus Christ), and the Holy Spirit. Each one possesses original, underived, and unborrowed life. They are all equally God and are one in nature, character, and purpose. They are not three “gods,” but one God in a combination of the three distinct persons.
The names of God reveal attributes of His nature. God has a long-established habit of using various names to describe a person’s character. Jacob earned his name that means “swindler” when he practiced deception to steal his father’s blessing away from his brother Esau (Genesis 27:35, 36). At his conversion, Jacob wrestled with the angel and insisted on the blessing of God. Then his name was changed to “Israel,” which means “a prince with God” (Genesis 32:26–28).
Likewise, the names for God found in Genesis and elsewhere tell us volumes about our Creator. “And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness” (Genesis 1:26). The Hebrew word here for God is Elohim. It is a plural noun that is used more than 2,700 times in the Old Testament. This means that inspired authors preferred to use Elohim about 10 times more than the singular form “El” when they described God. Even in the Old Testament book of Daniel, we see a picture of the Father and the Son as two separate persons. “I was watching in the night visions, And behold, One like the Son of Man, Coming with the clouds of heaven! He came to the Ancient of Days, And they brought Him near before Him” (Daniel 7:13). The Son of man, Jesus, is seen coming before the Ancient of Days—who is, obviously, God the Father.
The New Testament writings are sprinkled with this concept of one God with three united, fully divine persons. The apostle Paul wrote that there were three divine persons: “There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all” (Ephesians 4:4–6).
Paul frequently referred to the three separate persons of the Godhead. “The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all” (2 Corinthians 13:14). “How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?” (Hebrews 9:14).
Revelation opens by introducing the three persons of the Godhead. “From the seven Spirits who are before His throne, and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler over the kings of the earth. To Him who loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood, and has made us kings and priests to His God and Father, to Him be glory and dominion forever and ever” (Revelation 1:4–6 NKJV).
In addition, we clearly see three distinct persons at the baptism of Jesus. “And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased” (Matthew 3:16, 17).
If Jesus is the only person in the Godhead, where did the voice come from that declared, “This is my beloved Son”? Did He trisect Himself into a voice from heaven, the dove wafting down through the sky, and His body on the bank of the river? No. This was not simply a clever act of holy smoke and mirrors, but rather a regal reunion revealing the truth of the trinity. And on top of this, it is through the shared authority of these three persons that we are commissioned to baptize. “Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost” (Matthew 28:19).
Doug Batchelor, The Trinity
The Greeks did not write a or an in their written language, nor put commas.
The Greek language does have indefinite articles that can be translated to "a" or "an". For you to deny that is to deny reality and to expose your dirt poor knowledge of the Greek language.
Peterlag
Well-known member
The Bible says that Jesus is Lord, but 'Lord' doesn’t always mean God.
Many people in the Bible are called lord; King David was called lord, and he was even worshiped.
1 Kings 1:11 KJV
Wherefore Nathan spake unto Bath–sheba the mother of Solomon, saying, Hast thou not heard that Adonijah the son of Haggith doth reign, and David our lord knows it not?
1 Kings 1:31 KJV
Then Bath–sheba bowed with her face to the earth, and did reverence to the king, and said, Let my lord king David live for ever.
1 Kings 1:36-37 makes a distinction between the LORD God and the lord king David.
And Benaiahanswered the king, and said, Amen: the LORD God of my lord the king say so too. [37] As the LORD hath been with my lord the king, even so be he with Solomon, and make his throne greater than the throne of my lord king David.
Psalm 110:1 makes a distinction between the LORD God and the Lord Jesus Christ. The LORD said unto my Lord.
The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
Ephesians 1:17 says the Father of glory is the God of our Lord Jesus Christ.
That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
When the Bible says there is one LORD in Deuteronomy 6:4, it is talking about the LORD God. There is only one LORD God.
This does not mean that others cannot be called lord. Genesis 45:9 states that God made Joseph lord of all Egypt,
and Acts 2:36 states that God made Jesus both Lord and Christ.
Genesis 45:9 KJV
Haste ye, and go up to my father, and say unto him, Thus saith thy son Joseph, God hath made me lord of all Egypt: come down unto me, tarry not:
Acts 2:36 KJV
Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
If Jesus was made Lord by God, then Jesus can't be the LORD God.
Deuteronomy 6:4 is not talking about Jesus; it's talking about his Father.
Jesus called his Father Lord of heaven and earth in Matthew 11:25. Jesus wasn't talking to himself.
At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes
When 1st Corinthians 8:6 and Ephesians 4:5 say there is one Lord, it’s talking about the Lord Jesus Christ.
The Father put one lord over us, just like He put one lord over Egypt, which was Joseph, and He put one lord over Israel, which was King David.
1 Corinthians 11:3 says that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of Christ is God.
1 Corinthians 11:3 KJV
But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.
Christ is our head, but He has a head. Christ is our Lord, but He has a Lord. He has a God and Father over Him.
This is clearly what the Bible says.
Ephesians 1:2-3 KJV
Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ. [3] Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,
Many people in the Bible are called lord; King David was called lord, and he was even worshiped.
1 Kings 1:11 KJV
Wherefore Nathan spake unto Bath–sheba the mother of Solomon, saying, Hast thou not heard that Adonijah the son of Haggith doth reign, and David our lord knows it not?
1 Kings 1:31 KJV
Then Bath–sheba bowed with her face to the earth, and did reverence to the king, and said, Let my lord king David live for ever.
1 Kings 1:36-37 makes a distinction between the LORD God and the lord king David.
And Benaiahanswered the king, and said, Amen: the LORD God of my lord the king say so too. [37] As the LORD hath been with my lord the king, even so be he with Solomon, and make his throne greater than the throne of my lord king David.
Psalm 110:1 makes a distinction between the LORD God and the Lord Jesus Christ. The LORD said unto my Lord.
The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
Ephesians 1:17 says the Father of glory is the God of our Lord Jesus Christ.
That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
When the Bible says there is one LORD in Deuteronomy 6:4, it is talking about the LORD God. There is only one LORD God.
This does not mean that others cannot be called lord. Genesis 45:9 states that God made Joseph lord of all Egypt,
and Acts 2:36 states that God made Jesus both Lord and Christ.
Genesis 45:9 KJV
Haste ye, and go up to my father, and say unto him, Thus saith thy son Joseph, God hath made me lord of all Egypt: come down unto me, tarry not:
Acts 2:36 KJV
Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
If Jesus was made Lord by God, then Jesus can't be the LORD God.
Deuteronomy 6:4 is not talking about Jesus; it's talking about his Father.
Jesus called his Father Lord of heaven and earth in Matthew 11:25. Jesus wasn't talking to himself.
At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes
When 1st Corinthians 8:6 and Ephesians 4:5 say there is one Lord, it’s talking about the Lord Jesus Christ.
The Father put one lord over us, just like He put one lord over Egypt, which was Joseph, and He put one lord over Israel, which was King David.
1 Corinthians 11:3 says that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of Christ is God.
1 Corinthians 11:3 KJV
But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.
Christ is our head, but He has a head. Christ is our Lord, but He has a Lord. He has a God and Father over Him.
This is clearly what the Bible says.
Ephesians 1:2-3 KJV
Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ. [3] Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,
You best look it up.