The butchering of John 1:1 by JW anti-Trinitarian Translators

Keiw1 said:
You best look it up.
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I did and it's true that the Greek language does have indefinite articles that can be translated to "a" or "an". For you to deny that is to deny reality and to expose your dirt poor knowledge of the Greek language. Here are some examples of the Indefinite Articles in the Greek language:

Singular Indefinite Articles, all of them translate to “one” or "a":
– Masculine: ένας
– Feminine: μία
– Neuter: ένα

Plural Indefinite Articles, all of them translate to “several”
– Masculine: μερικοί
– Feminine: μερικές
– Neuter: μερικά

Therefore, all JWs have now been awarded the Butcher of the Year Award for their butchering of John 1:1.
 
synergy said:
I did and it's true that the Greek language does have indefinite articles that can be translated to "a" or "an". For you to deny that is to deny reality and to expose your dirt poor knowledge of the Greek language. Here are some examples of the Indefinite Articles in the Greek language:

Singular Indefinite Articles, all of them translate to “one” or "a":
– Masculine: ένας
– Feminine: μία
– Neuter: ένα

Plural Indefinite Articles, all of them translate to “several”
– Masculine: μερικοί
– Feminine: μερικές
– Neuter: μερικά

Therefore, all JWs have now been awarded the Butcher of the Year Award for their butchering of John 1:1.
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20 Greek scholars put a god at John 1:1 in history. They are correct.
 
There Is No Trinity In The Hebrew bible

“The Old Testament... tells us nothing... by implication of a Triune God. There is no evidence that any writer even suspected the existence of a Trinity within the Godhead. Even to see... suggestions or foreshadowings or 'veiled signs' of the Trinity is to go beyond the words and intent of the writers.” - The Triune God - (Catholic Trinitarian Edmund Fortman)

And as regarding Trinitarian claims to the contrary:

“Attempts to trace the origins (of the Trinity)... to the OT literature cannot be supported by historical-critical scholarship; these attempts must be understood as retrospective interpretations of... Scripture in the light of later theological development." - Harpers Bible Dictionary (pp.198-9)

Let me try to put that into English. What Harper is telling us is that an examination of the Old Testament reveals that it does not contain the groundwork upon which a Trinity-doctrine may be founded, and that those who claim otherwise are actually re-interpreting certain verses of Scripture on the basis of a theological concept (the doctrine of the Trinity) which was only developed long after the Bible had been written.
Further, some of these retrospective interpretations may have been less than genuine in their intent:

“It is exegesis [“analysis and interpretation”] of a mischievous...sort, that would discover the Trinity doctrine in the OT.” - The Encyclopedia of Religion and Ethics - James Hastings, (Vol 12, page 458)

“The doctrine of the Trinity as such is not revealed in the OT” - The Encyclopedia of Catholicism, p.1270

“Theologians today are in agreement that the Hebrew Bible does not contain a doctrine of the Trinity... It would go beyond the intention and spirit of the Old Testament to correlate (its statements) with later Trinitarian doctrine." - The Encyclopedia of Religion - (Vol.15, p54

And, while we’re at it:
    • - There Is No Trinity In The New Testament “As far as the New Testament is concerned, one does not find in it an actual doctrine of the Trinity.” - A Short History of Christian Doctrine - Bernard Lohse
“Theologians agree that the New Testament also does not contain an explicit doctrine of the Trinity." - The Encyclopedia of Religion - Lindsay Jones

“At first the Christian faith was not Trinitarian . . . It was not so in the apostolic and sub-apostolic ages, as reflected in the New Testament and other early Christian writings”- Encyclopædia of Religion and Ethics - James Hastings

“The formulation 'one God in three Persons' was not solidly established prior to the end of the 4th century. Among the Apostolic Fathers, there had been nothing even remotely approaching such a mentality or perspective.” - The New Catholic Encyclopedia

“To Jesus the doctrine of the Trinity was apparently unknown”. - Origin and Evolution of Religion - E. Washburn Hopkins
“Jesus Christ never mentioned such a phenomenon... the idea was only adopted by the Church three hundred years after his death.” - The Paganism in Our Christianity - Arthur Weigall

“The New Testament writers . . . give us no formal or formulated doctrine of the Trinity, no explicit teaching that in one God there are three co-equal divine persons. Nowhere (in the New Testament) do we find any trinitarian doctrine of three distinct subjects of divine life and activity in the same Godhead.” - The Triune God - Trinitarian Edmund Fortman

The unfounded and erroneous assertions of Trinitarianism notwithstanding:
    • The simple fact is that neither the word “Trinity”, nor the doctrine itself, nor veiled signs, nor foreshadowings, nor any suggestion of it, exist anywhere in the pages of Scripture.
 
Peterlag said:
There Is No Trinity In The Hebrew bible

“The Old Testament... tells us nothing... by implication of a Triune God. There is no evidence that any writer even suspected the existence of a Trinity within the Godhead. Even to see... suggestions or foreshadowings or 'veiled signs' of the Trinity is to go beyond the words and intent of the writers.” - The Triune God - (Catholic Trinitarian Edmund Fortman)

And as regarding Trinitarian claims to the contrary:

“Attempts to trace the origins (of the Trinity)... to the OT literature cannot be supported by historical-critical scholarship; these attempts must be understood as retrospective interpretations of... Scripture in the light of later theological development." - Harpers Bible Dictionary (pp.198-9)

Let me try to put that into English. What Harper is telling us is that an examination of the Old Testament reveals that it does not contain the groundwork upon which a Trinity-doctrine may be founded, and that those who claim otherwise are actually re-interpreting certain verses of Scripture on the basis of a theological concept (the doctrine of the Trinity) which was only developed long after the Bible had been written.
Further, some of these retrospective interpretations may have been less than genuine in their intent:

“It is exegesis [“analysis and interpretation”] of a mischievous...sort, that would discover the Trinity doctrine in the OT.” - The Encyclopedia of Religion and Ethics - James Hastings, (Vol 12, page 458)

“The doctrine of the Trinity as such is not revealed in the OT” - The Encyclopedia of Catholicism, p.1270

“Theologians today are in agreement that the Hebrew Bible does not contain a doctrine of the Trinity... It would go beyond the intention and spirit of the Old Testament to correlate (its statements) with later Trinitarian doctrine." - The Encyclopedia of Religion - (Vol.15, p54

And, while we’re at it:
    • - There Is No Trinity In The New Testament “As far as the New Testament is concerned, one does not find in it an actual doctrine of the Trinity.” - A Short History of Christian Doctrine - Bernard Lohse
“Theologians agree that the New Testament also does not contain an explicit doctrine of the Trinity." - The Encyclopedia of Religion - Lindsay Jones

“At first the Christian faith was not Trinitarian . . . It was not so in the apostolic and sub-apostolic ages, as reflected in the New Testament and other early Christian writings”- Encyclopædia of Religion and Ethics - James Hastings

“The formulation 'one God in three Persons' was not solidly established prior to the end of the 4th century. Among the Apostolic Fathers, there had been nothing even remotely approaching such a mentality or perspective.” - The New Catholic Encyclopedia

“To Jesus the doctrine of the Trinity was apparently unknown”. - Origin and Evolution of Religion - E. Washburn Hopkins
“Jesus Christ never mentioned such a phenomenon... the idea was only adopted by the Church three hundred years after his death.” - The Paganism in Our Christianity - Arthur Weigall

“The New Testament writers . . . give us no formal or formulated doctrine of the Trinity, no explicit teaching that in one God there are three co-equal divine persons. Nowhere (in the New Testament) do we find any trinitarian doctrine of three distinct subjects of divine life and activity in the same Godhead.” - The Triune God - Trinitarian Edmund Fortman

The unfounded and erroneous assertions of Trinitarianism notwithstanding:
    • The simple fact is that neither the word “Trinity”, nor the doctrine itself, nor veiled signs, nor foreshadowings, nor any suggestion of it, exist anywhere in the pages of Scripture.
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That flies in the face of OT Theophanies and a dozen Gospel of John verses starting with John 1:1.
 
synergy said:
That flies in the face of OT Theophanies and a dozen Gospel of John verses starting with John 1:1.
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It seems difficult for people to understand that John 1:1 is introducing the Gospel of John, and not the Book of Genesis. The topic of John is God (the Father, the only God) at work in the ministry of the man Jesus of Nazareth, not the creation of rocks, trees and stars.
 
Peterlag said:
It seems difficult for people to understand that John 1:1 is introducing the Gospel of John, and not the Book of Genesis. The topic of John is God (the Father, the only God) at work in the ministry of the man Jesus of Nazareth, not the creation of rocks, trees and stars.
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It seems difficult for you to understand that the subject in John 1:1 is the Word, mentioned three times over. How many times must John refer to the Word in that verse before you get it?

(John 1:1) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
 
synergy said:
It seems difficult for you to understand that the subject in John 1:1 is the Word, mentioned three times over. How many times must John refer to the Word in that verse before you get it?

(John 1:1) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was
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John 1:3
“Everything came to be through it.” The logos is an “it” not a “him.”

Translators have deliberately chosen to use “him” because they wanted to emphasize that the Word was the male person we know as Jesus. This was a theological choice, not a linguistic one.

Translators, on the other hand, retained the natural feminine gender of the Hebrew word chokmah (חָכְמָה) “wisdom” in the book of Proverbs.

“Do not forsake wisdom, and she will protect you; love her, and she will watch over you.” (Proverbs 4:6)

Was the Wisdom a distinct divine person?

So, for the same reason that Wisdom is not literally a person, Word is not literally a person.

Both the description in Proverbs and in John 1:1-3 are metaphorical.

Jesus is the personification of the Word because He speaks the words of God. To listen to Jesus equals listening to the Word of God.
 
Peterlag said:
There Is No Trinity In The Hebrew bible

“The Old Testament... tells us nothing... by implication of a Triune God. There is no evidence that any writer even suspected the existence of a Trinity within the Godhead. Even to see... suggestions or foreshadowings or 'veiled signs' of the Trinity is to go beyond the words and intent of the writers.” - The Triune God - (Catholic Trinitarian Edmund Fortman)

And as regarding Trinitarian claims to the contrary:

“Attempts to trace the origins (of the Trinity)... to the OT literature cannot be supported by historical-critical scholarship; these attempts must be understood as retrospective interpretations of... Scripture in the light of later theological development." - Harpers Bible Dictionary (pp.198-9)

Let me try to put that into English. What Harper is telling us is that an examination of the Old Testament reveals that it does not contain the groundwork upon which a Trinity-doctrine may be founded, and that those who claim otherwise are actually re-interpreting certain verses of Scripture on the basis of a theological concept (the doctrine of the Trinity) which was only developed long after the Bible had been written.
Further, some of these retrospective interpretations may have been less than genuine in their intent:

“It is exegesis [“analysis and interpretation”] of a mischievous...sort, that would discover the Trinity doctrine in the OT.” - The Encyclopedia of Religion and Ethics - James Hastings, (Vol 12, page 458)

“The doctrine of the Trinity as such is not revealed in the OT” - The Encyclopedia of Catholicism, p.1270

“Theologians today are in agreement that the Hebrew Bible does not contain a doctrine of the Trinity... It would go beyond the intention and spirit of the Old Testament to correlate (its statements) with later Trinitarian doctrine." - The Encyclopedia of Religion - (Vol.15, p54

And, while we’re at it:
    • - There Is No Trinity In The New Testament “As far as the New Testament is concerned, one does not find in it an actual doctrine of the Trinity.” - A Short History of Christian Doctrine - Bernard Lohse
“Theologians agree that the New Testament also does not contain an explicit doctrine of the Trinity." - The Encyclopedia of Religion - Lindsay Jones

“At first the Christian faith was not Trinitarian . . . It was not so in the apostolic and sub-apostolic ages, as reflected in the New Testament and other early Christian writings”- Encyclopædia of Religion and Ethics - James Hastings

“The formulation 'one God in three Persons' was not solidly established prior to the end of the 4th century. Among the Apostolic Fathers, there had been nothing even remotely approaching such a mentality or perspective.” - The New Catholic Encyclopedia

“To Jesus the doctrine of the Trinity was apparently unknown”. - Origin and Evolution of Religion - E. Washburn Hopkins
“Jesus Christ never mentioned such a phenomenon... the idea was only adopted by the Church three hundred years after his death.” - The Paganism in Our Christianity - Arthur Weigall

“The New Testament writers . . . give us no formal or formulated doctrine of the Trinity, no explicit teaching that in one God there are three co-equal divine persons. Nowhere (in the New Testament) do we find any trinitarian doctrine of three distinct subjects of divine life and activity in the same Godhead.” - The Triune God - Trinitarian Edmund Fortman

The unfounded and erroneous assertions of Trinitarianism notwithstanding:
    • The simple fact is that neither the word “Trinity”, nor the doctrine itself, nor veiled signs, nor foreshadowings, nor any suggestion of it, exist anywhere in the pages of Scripture
Click to expand...

The meaning of DOCTRINE is a principle or position or the body of principles in a branch of knowledge or system of belief : dogma. Webster.

Doctrine in theology (Latin doctrina; Greek didaskalia, didachē) is a generic term for the theoretical component of religious experience. It signifies the process of conceptualizing the primal—often experiential or intuitive—insights of the faith of a religious community in support of rationally understood belief. Doctrines seek to provide religion with intellectual systems for guidance in the processes of instruction, discipline, propaganda, and controversy. Dogma (Latin decretum, Greek dogma) has come to have a more specific reference to the distillate of doctrines: those first (basic or axiomatic) principles at the heart of doctrinal reflection, professed as essential by all the faithful. Britannica.

But here is a little light reading for you.... I only copied the part that is appropriate for this topic as I sincerely doubt you would read it all.... though there are some interesting points if you so choose. I left the index intact and reddened the key areas for you to see. (https://biblehub.com/library/evans/the_great_doctrines_of_the_bible/the_doctrine_of_god.htm)


​
The Doctrine of God​
​


I. THE EXISTENCE OF GOD: (Vs. Atheism).

1. ASSUMED BY THE SCRIPTURES.
2. PROOFS OF THE EXISTENCE OF GOD.
a) Universal belief in the Existence of God.
b) Cosmological: -- Argument from Cause.
c) Teleological: -- Argument from Design.
d) Ontological: -- Argument from Being.
e) Anthropological: -- Moral Argument.
f) Argument from Congruity.
g) Argument from Scripture.

II. THE NATURE OF GOD: (Vs. Agnosticism)

1. THE SPIRITUALITY OF GOD: (Vs. Materialism).
2. THE PERSONALITY OF GOD: (Vs. Pantheism).
3. THE UNITY OF GOD: (Vs. Polytheism).
4. THE TRINITY: (Vs. Unitarianism).

III. THE ATTRIBUTES OF GOD.
1. THE NATURAL ATTRIBUTES:
a) Omniscience.
b) Omnipotence.
c) Omnipresence.
d) Eternity.
2. THE MORAL ATTRIBUTES:
a) Holiness.
b) Righteousness.
c) Faithfulness.
d) Mercy and Loving-kindness.
e) Love.




4. THE DOCTRINE OF THE TRINITY: (Vs. Unitarianism).
The doctrine of the Trinity is, in its last analysis, a deep mystery that cannot be
fathomed by the finite mind. That it is taught in the Scripture, however, there can
be no reasonable doubt. It is a doctrine to be believed even though it cannot be
thoroughly understood.

a) The Doctrine of the Trinity in the Old Testament.
This doctrine is not so much declared as intimated in the Old Testament. The
burden of the Old Testament message seems to be the unity of God. Yet the
doctrine of the Trinity is clearly intimated in a four-fold way:

First: In the plural names of the Deity; e. g., Elohim.

Second: Personal pronouns used of the Deity. Gen.1:26; 11:7; Isa.6:8.

Third: The Theophanies, especially the "Angel of the Lord." Gen.16 and 18.

Fourth: The work of the Holy Spirit. Gen.1:2; Judges 6:34.

b) The Doctrine of the Trinity in the New Testament.

The doctrine of the Trinity is clearly taught in the New Testament; it is not merely
intimated, as in the Old Testament, but explicitly declared. This is evident from the
following:

First: The baptism of Christ: Matt 3:16, 17. Here the Father speaks from heaven;
the Son is being baptized in the Jordan; and the Spirit descends in the form of a dove.

Second: In the Baptismal Formula: Matt.28:19 -- "Baptizing them in the name
(sing.) of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost."

Third: The Apostolic
Benediction: 2 Cor.13:14 -- "The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ....love of God.....
communion of the Holy Ghost."

Fourth: Christ Himself teaches it in John 14:16 -- "I will pray the Father... He will
give you another Comforter."

Fifth: The New Testaffignt sets forth:

A Father who is God, Rom.1:7.
A son who is God, Heb.1:8.
A Holy Spirit who is God, Acts 5:3, 4.

The whole is summed up in the words of Boardman: The Father is all the fulness of
the Godhead invisible, John 1:18; the Son is all the fulness of Godhead manifested,
John 1:4-18; the Spirit is all the fulness of the Godhead acting immediately upon the
creature, 1 Cor.2:9, 10.​



​
 
Peterlag said:
John 1:3
“Everything came to be through it.” The logos is an “it” not a “him.”

Translators have deliberately chosen to use “him” because they wanted to emphasize that the Word was the male person we know as Jesus. This was a theological choice, not a linguistic one.

Translators, on the other hand, retained the natural feminine gender of the Hebrew word chokmah (חָכְמָה) “wisdom” in the book of Proverbs.

“Do not forsake wisdom, and she will protect you; love her, and she will watch over you.” (Proverbs 4:6)

Was the Wisdom a distinct divine person?

So, for the same reason that Wisdom is not literally a person, Word is not literally a person.

Both the description in Proverbs and in John 1:1-3 are metaphorical.

Jesus is the personification of the Word because He speaks the words of God. To listen to Jesus equals listening to the Word of God.
Click to expand...
The proper translation of ουτος and αυτου in John 1:2-3 are "He" and "Him", not "It". The Uncreated Word of God is not a thing, He is a He. Do you understand?

If you refuse that truth then the following is true about you:
  1. You have no understanding of Greek.
  2. You just brush aside the Greek language like it's useless.
  3. You place yourself above the Apostles.
  4. You're willing to change the very words of Apostle John to an "it".
  5. You degrade the Uncreated Word of God to an "it".
  6. Should I go on?
 
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