The Bahá'í Faith: Teachings, History, and Practices

[Pancho Frijoles]

Your discussions are decent in English. Glad you can use it so well. It is sort of a phonetic abbreviation of I owe you. When you pronounce the letters, you are saying the words. So an I.O.U. roughly refers to a scribbled out paper saying I owe you money or something else.

Thanks, Mikesw.
I laugh because I found it fun. It was very simple, but I wasn't getting it.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Are there any prophecies in the Writings that have come to pass?

The Writings foresee the development of the new society / new earth that we are witnessing now.
This includes success of the principles of unity of mankind, harmony between religion and science, equality of sexes, use of an auxiliary language, formation of international institutions like the UN and the International Court of Justice, peace agreements, a new economic system.

 

[mikesw]

Thanks, Mikesw.
I laugh because I found it fun. It was very simple, but I wasn't getting it.

Sure. I recognized that. It is funny how that works out.

 

[mikesw]

The Writings foresee the development of the new society / new earth that we are witnessing now.
This includes success of the principles of unity of mankind, harmony between religion and science, equality of sexes, use of an auxiliary language, formation of international institutions like the UN and the International Court of Justice, peace agreements, a new economic system.

Indeed the UN and a unifying religion is not very welcome by people who know Christ as the only way of reconciliation with God. Those act against the love of Christ and redemption we have through Christ. This unity they desire comes at the expense of following one's conscious and beliefs whether they are following truth or lies. There is no unity of light and darkness. Christ is the light of the world.

 

[charismaticlady]

The Writings foresee the development of the new society / new earth that we are witnessing now.
This includes success of the principles of unity of mankind, harmony between religion and science, equality of sexes, use of an auxiliary language, formation of international institutions like the UN and the International Court of Justice, peace agreements, a new economic system.

Interesting.

Does the Bahai faith have a god or goddess or both? Who wrote the Writings. What is their story?

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Interesting.

Does the Bahai faith have a god or goddess or both? Who wrote the Writings. What is their story?

Thanks for the question

We worship the Only and True God: the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. The God Jesus worshiped. The God Muhammad worshiped.
Since God has no sex, God is not "male" or "female".

The Báb proclaimed the end of Islamic dispensation in Shiraz, Persia, in 1844, and the forthcoming advent of a new Manifestation, in a similar way that John the Baptist announced the advent of Jesus. Such new manifestation came to be a man with the title of "The Glory of God" (Bahá'u'lláh) who proclaimed to be the fulfillment of messianic hopes across religion.

The Báb was tortured and executed by the religious-political elite of Persia in 1850. Bahá'u'lláh was tortured, imprisoned in a dungeon and then sent to exile. During his exile he was arrested again and spent many years as prisoner until his death in 1892. He wrote thousands of pages that have come to us. His handwritten documents are preserved in Haifa, Israel, where the Faith institutions are headquartered.

The epic story of The Báb is presented in this documentary. It lasts one hour but if you have time and interest, it will be worthwhile.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Well, my friend @Bob Carabbio, if you could forgive that Muslim manager, without requiring him to pass any quiz on Theology, or without requiring him to change religion, certainly God would forgive him as well.

No one can be more merciful than God.

Your Muslim manager, if he died that night after your forgiveness, and came to the throne of God, would not be accounted that sin.

Unfortunately, MY FORGIVENESS would account for nothing in that case. It would be good of him to apologize, but even if he didn't I'd be duty-bound to forgive anyway. (Mat 18:23-35)

In Biblical Christianity, however, "forgiveness" isn't the problem at all. CLEANSING FROM SIN is the issue. (Isa 53:10)

God is certainly merciful, BUT He's also set some requirements, the MOST IMPORTANT OF WHICH is what we've done with the sacrifice of JESUS to cleanse us from SIN.

If a Muslim (or any other human) is NOT BORN AGAIN by FAITH (Eph 2,:8,9) in the perfect SIN OFFERING of Jesus on the cross, then they've NOT been cleansed of their SIN, and hell awaits should they die physically.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Unfortunately, MY FORGIVENESS would account for nothing in that case. It would be good of him to apologize, but even if he didn't I'd be duty-bound to forgive anyway. (Mat 18:23-35)

In Biblical Christianity, however, "forgiveness" isn't the problem at all. CLEANSING FROM SIN is the issue. (Isa 53:10)

Bob and friends all:

There is no difference between forgiveness and cleansing from sin. Absolutely no biblical nor rational support for that.
The text of Isaiah you are quoting does not indicate any difference.

In contrast, the Bible explains directly, in unequivocal terms, and repeatedly, that God can cleanse sins as a result of his Mercy, his compassion
The inspired author of Psalms 51 (probably David after having committed murder and adultery) was convinced that God could blot out, cleanse, wash his sin, with absolutely no reference to a belief in a future atonement by a future Messiah. Furthermore: the inspired author is convinced that God alone, by his Mercy and compassion, can transform his heart, renew his spirit, and save him.

Let's read

Have mercy on me, O God,
according to Your lovingkindness;
according to the abundance of Your compassion,
blot out my transgressions.
Wash me thoroughly from my iniquity,
and cleanse me from my sin...

Purify me with hyssop, and I will be clean;
wash me, and I will be whiter than snow.
Make me to hear joy and gladness,
that the bones that You have broken may rejoice.
Hide Your face from my sins,
and blot out all my iniquities...

Create in me a clean heart, O God,
and renew a right spirit within me.
Do not cast me away from Your presence,
and do not take Your Holy Spirit from me.
Restore to me the joy of Your salvation,
and uphold me with Your willing spirit.

For You do not desire sacrifice, or I would give it;
You do not delight in burnt offering.
The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit;
a broken and a contrite heart,
O God, You will not despise.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

If a Muslim (or any other human) is NOT BORN AGAIN by FAITH (Eph 2,:8,9) in the perfect SIN OFFERING of Jesus on the cross, then they've NOT been cleansed of their SIN, and hell awaits should they die physically.

Do you believe that Muslims who choose to die as Muslims, or Jews who choose to die as Jews, or Baha'is like me who choose to die as Baha'i, deserve to be tortured forever or destroy forever?
I think you don't, because that would be a perverse idea, and you are a noble man, created in the image of God.

I want to call the attention from our @Administrator to this matter.
According to the UN Office of Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide (please click the link)

"genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:​

1. Killing members of the group;
2. Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
3. Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
4. Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
5. Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group

Spreading through an Internet forum the idea that about 2000 million human beings deserve to be tortured forever unless they abandon their religion looks to me as an activity that provides intellectual support to genocide.
I want to be very serious on this matter, dear @Administrator.

I am Francisco Enrique Camacho Mezquita, a 57-year-old man, citizen of Mexico, married, Baha'i, Medical Doctor who lives in Mexico City. My profile photo is my real photo and I participate in this Forum under the nickname "Pancho Frijoles".
I believe that all my Christian fellows will enjoy the presence of God in paradise, regardless of the church or creed in which they choose to live and die. I firmly and publicly reject any attempt, open or hidden, to regard as just the torture or destruction of human beings based on their creed, either in this life or in the afterlife. I oppose that idea because I consider it absurd, devoid of biblical support, and immoral.

 

[synergy]

Thanks for the question

We worship the Only and True God: the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. The God Jesus worshiped. The God Muhammad worshiped.
Since God has no sex, God is not "male" or "female".

The Báb proclaimed the end of Islamic dispensation in Shiraz, Persia, in 1844, and the forthcoming advent of a new Manifestation, in a similar way that John the Baptist announced the advent of Jesus. Such new manifestation came to be a man with the title of "The Glory of God" (Bahá'u'lláh) who proclaimed to be the fulfillment of messianic hopes across religion.

The Báb was tortured and executed by the religious-political elite of Persia in 1850. Bahá'u'lláh was tortured, imprisoned in a dungeon and then sent to exile. During his exile he was arrested again and spent many years as prisoner until his death in 1892. He wrote thousands of pages that have come to us. His handwritten documents are preserved in Haifa, Israel, where the Faith institutions are headquartered.

The epic story of The Báb is presented in this documentary. It lasts one hour but if you have time and interest, it will be worthwhile.

Thank you for recommending that video. I have several observations, comments, and questions:

1. The Baha'i faith is totally disconnected from Christianity. It was born within a sea of Islamic beliefs that are totally hostile to Christianity.
2. The Baha'i faith is based on Muhammad lineage who vehemently denied the Cross.
3. The Transfiguration event in the Baha'i faith was the appearance of a lady without a hijab.
4. Prophets were a dime a dozen in the 19th century. Just in the US alone you had Ellen White, Joseph Smith, William Miller, etc...
5. Charismatic movements were also a dime a dozen back then. In the US alone, there was the emergence of the Pentecostal Church and the spread of Charismatics within all denominations, even within Catholicism.
6. Persia had a long history of producing charismatic Prophets such as Zoroaster. The most infamous one that comes immediately to mind is the Persian Prophet Mani who infected Augustine with Manicheanism.
7. In Christianity, the forgiveness that we get from God is eternal life which can only happen if death was conquered by Christ. So how does the Baha'i faith believe death is conquered?

 

[mikesw]

Bob and friends all:

There is no difference between forgiveness and cleansing from sin. Absolutely no biblical nor rational support for that.
The text of Isaiah you are quoting does not indicate any difference.

In contrast, the Bible explains directly, in unequivocal terms, and repeatedly, that God can cleanse sins as a result of his Mercy, his compassion
The inspired author of Psalms 51 (probably David after having committed murder and adultery) was convinced that God could blot out, cleanse, wash his sin, with absolutely no reference to a belief in a future atonement by a future Messiah. Furthermore: the inspired author is convinced that God alone, by his Mercy and compassion, can transform his heart, renew his spirit, and save him.

Let's read

Have mercy on me, O God,
according to Your lovingkindness;
according to the abundance of Your compassion,
blot out my transgressions.
Wash me thoroughly from my iniquity,
and cleanse me from my sin...

Purify me with hyssop, and I will be clean;
wash me, and I will be whiter than snow.
Make me to hear joy and gladness,
that the bones that You have broken may rejoice.
Hide Your face from my sins,
and blot out all my iniquities...

Create in me a clean heart, O God,
and renew a right spirit within me.
Do not cast me away from Your presence,
and do not take Your Holy Spirit from me.
Restore to me the joy of Your salvation,
and uphold me with Your willing spirit.

For You do not desire sacrifice, or I would give it;
You do not delight in burnt offering.
The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit;
a broken and a contrite heart,
O God, You will not despise.

Let me get this straight. You are taking David's request to God, within the context of his relationship with God and trust toward God, as a representation of what God does for anyone ... and especially for any generic person that asks forgiveness despite not knowing God nor seeking to do God's will -- a will in accord with the scriptures. This is still only a request to God. Even David's contrite approach in the last few sentences is more of a humble acknowledgment that just doing the mechanics of atonement is not as important as his reconciling in his heart with God.
This psalm does not say God has to forgive in this situation. It merely is the request. So you have really exceeded the message of this psalm

 

[charismaticlady]

Thanks for the question

We worship the Only and True God: the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. The God Jesus worshiped. The God Muhammad worshiped.
Since God has no sex, God is not "male" or "female".

The Báb proclaimed the end of Islamic dispensation in Shiraz, Persia, in 1844, and the forthcoming advent of a new Manifestation, in a similar way that John the Baptist announced the advent of Jesus. Such new manifestation came to be a man with the title of "The Glory of God" (Bahá'u'lláh) who proclaimed to be the fulfillment of messianic hopes across religion.

The Báb was tortured and executed by the religious-political elite of Persia in 1850. Bahá'u'lláh was tortured, imprisoned in a dungeon and then sent to exile. During his exile he was arrested again and spent many years as prisoner until his death in 1892. He wrote thousands of pages that have come to us. His handwritten documents are preserved in Haifa, Israel, where the Faith institutions are headquartered.

The epic story of The Báb is presented in this documentary. It lasts one hour but if you have time and interest, it will be worthwhile.

So you're closer to Christianity than I thought, although I remember thinking that a long time ago too. Did you know that we can be born again so that we can shed the sin nature and have a clean nature instead? 1 John 3:5-9, John 15:3. To keep growing in the Spirit all we must do is just abide in Jesus. John 15:4

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Let me get this straight. You are taking David's request to God, within the context of his relationship with God and trust toward God, as a representation of what God does for anyone ... and especially for any generic person that asks forgiveness despite not knowing God nor seeking to do God's will -- a will in accord with the scriptures. This is still only a request to God. Even David's contrite approach in the last few sentences is more of a humble acknowledgment that just doing the mechanics of atonement is not as important as his reconciling in his heart with God.
This psalm does not say God has to forgive in this situation. It merely is the request. So you have really exceeded the message of this psalm

It is a request recorded forever in the sacred text, for us to read and learn. A request that you read in your congregation... and you read it for a reason.
A request from a man who had committed murder and adultery and still was forgiven and supported by God.
If you believe that King David is burning in hell right now, please let us know.

 

[mikesw]

It is a request recorded forever in the sacred text, for us to read and learn. A request that you read in your congregation.
A request from a man who had committed murder and adultery and still was forgiven and supported by God.
If you believe that King David is burning in hell right now, please let us know.

You are even destroying the little argument you had when posting the psalm itself. You have totally forgotten the context that was just shared about it. Not sure what else to say about it.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Thank you for recommending that video. I have several observations, comments, and questions:

1. The Baha'i faith is totally disconnected from Christianity. It was born within a sea of Islamic beliefs that are totally hostile to Christianity.

We are not hostile to any religion. We believe Christians who follow Christ are saved. In contrast, many Christians, even in this Forum, believe it is OK that we burn forever in hell. So tell me, my friend, which group is hostile to which group?

1. The Baha'i faith is based on Muhammad lineage who vehemently denied the Cross.

We don't deny the cross

1. The Transfiguration event in the Baha'i faith was the appearance of a lady without a hijab.

Tahirih, yes. And what are the implications here?

1. Prophets were a dime a dozen in the 19th century. Just in the US alone you had Ellen White, Joseph Smith, William Miller, etc...

Sure. Christ promised to return, and he also warned about false prophets.

1. Charismatic movements were also a dime a dozen back then. In the US alone, there was the emergence of the Pentecostal Church and the spread of Charismatics within all denominations, even within Catholicism.

Yes.

1. Persia had a long history of producing charismatic Prophets such as Zoroaster. The most infamous one that comes immediately to mind is the Persian Prophet Mani who infected Augustine with Manicheanism.

Israel had also a long history of producing true and false prophets. Do you agree?
In regard to Zoroaster, peace and glory be to Him. He had a tremendous influence on the religions you and I profess, as currently recognized in academic circles.

1. In Christianity, the forgiveness that we get from God is eternal life which can only happen if death was conquered by Christ. So how does the Baha'i faith believe death is conquered?

By the grace of God, bestowed upon those who choose to follow the Gospel taught by Christ. Christ is the Word manifested in flesh. So, Christ conquers death because of His Word, His Message, His Gospel. Jesus Himself taught that.

 

[Administrator]

Do you believe that Muslims who choose to die as Muslims, or Jews who choose to die as Jews, or Baha'is like me who choose to die as Baha'i, deserve to be tortured forever or destroy forever?
I think you don't, because that would be a perverse idea, and you are a noble man, created in the image of God.

I want to call the attention from our @Administrator to this matter.
According to the UN Office of Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide (please click the link)

"genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:​

1. Killing members of the group;
2. Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
3. Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
4. Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
5. Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group

Spreading through an Internet forum the idea that about 2000 million human beings deserve to be tortured forever unless they abandon their religion looks to me as an activity that provides intellectual support to genocide.
I want to be very serious on this matter, dear @Administrator.

I am Francisco Enrique Camacho Mezquita, a 57-year-old man, citizen of Mexico, married, Baha'i, Medical Doctor who lives in Mexico City. My profile photo is my real photo and I participate in this Forum under the nickname "Pancho Frijoles".
I believe that all my Christian fellows will enjoy the presence of God in paradise, regardless of the church or creed in which they choose to live and die. I firmly reject any attempt, open or hidden, to regard as just the torture or destruction of human beings based on their creed, either in this life or in the afterlife. I oppose that idea because I consider it absurd, devoid of biblical support, and immoral.

We are definitely glad that you're here and we respect your faith. I don't think there's anyone on the forum that would condone genocide of any group of people no matter what their beliefs. Our goal here is to treat each other with courtesy and respect. We understand that at times discussions can do a little out of hand and become hot and heavy. But that's where we step in and change the direction because that's not allowed. We set this forum up specific reason. And that was to create a safe environment for everyone to share their beliefs.

I'm glad that you felt comfortable enough to share your name with us. My brother worked at the US Embassy in Mexico City for about 5 years. He was actually born in Mexico and had dual citizenship. He had to renounce his Mexican Citizenship when he moved from being a US air marshal to Homeland Security.

I lived in Mexico myself for a couple of years. I lived in San Luis Rio Colorado in the state of Sonora.

At any rate it's my job to make sure things run smoothly and that we all obey the rules. You seem to be doing just fine to me. I'm also glad that you're sharing your knowledge of your faith with us.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

You are even destroying the little argument you had when posting the psalm itself. You have totally forgotten the context that was just shared about it. Not sure what else to say about it.

It was not a little argument.
It was an key concept repeated over, and over, and over throughout the Psalm, in the most explicit terms (blot out, cleanse, wash)
A concept that you have repeated to yourself, to your family and congregation several times.
A concept that tears your heart and breaks your bones.

Regarding the context, how am I destroying it?
Murder and adultery in a single act. Sheer violation to God's Law.
And still, hope not just for forgiveness, but for restoration and salvation.

 

[mikesw]

Do you believe that Muslims who choose to die as Muslims, or Jews who choose to die as Jews, or Baha'is like me who choose to die as Baha'i, deserve to be tortured forever or destroy forever?
I think you don't, because that would be a perverse idea, and you are a noble man, created in the image of God.

I want to call the attention from our @Administrator to this matter.
According to the UN Office of Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide (please click the link)

. . .​

I am Francisco Enrique Camacho Mezquita, a 57-year-old man, citizen of Mexico, married, Baha'i, Medical Doctor who lives in Mexico City. My profile photo is my real photo and I participate in this Forum under the nickname "Pancho Frijoles".
I believe that all my Christian fellows will enjoy the presence of God in paradise, regardless of the church or creed in which they choose to live and die. I firmly and publicly reject any attempt, open or hidden, to regard as just the torture or destruction of human beings based on their creed, either in this life or in the afterlife. I oppose that idea because I consider it absurd, devoid of biblical support, and immoral.

I don't think scripture teaches a general eternal punishment of those who do not come to Christ. If I'm right on that, that is not a true issue. However, God has destroyed nations surrounding Israel in their worship of false Gods, including those in Babylon. Much of this appears to be for the sake of preparing a safe ground for spreading the gospel message in its earlier years.
Is God obligated to your conception of genocide or does God have the right to destroy those who hate him? Is it logical to assume God will resurrect people whose nature and practices show them as enemies of God? Indeed, even those of us who have come to God were enemies but have been changed in our nature (Rom 5:10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life. ).
God has a plan and we may not always grasp the ins-and-outs of what is happening. We do see however that people often reject the gospel despite hearing it. Why would they somehow accept it after they die?

.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

We are definitely glad that you're here and we respect your faith. I don't think there's anyone on the forum that would condone genocide of any group of people no matter what their beliefs. Our goal here is to treat each other with courtesy and respect. We understand that at times discussions can do a little out of hand and become hot and heavy. But that's where we step in and change the direction because that's not allowed. We set this forum up specific reason. And that was to create a safe environment for everyone to share their beliefs.

I'm glad that you felt comfortable enough to share your name with us. My brother worked at the US Embassy in Mexico City for about 5 years. He was actually born in Mexico and had dual citizenship. He had to renounce his Mexican Citizenship when he moved from being a US air marshal to Homeland Security.

I lived in Mexico myself for a couple of years. I lived in San Luis Rio Colorado in the state of Sonora.

At any rate it's my job to make sure things run smoothly and that we all obey the rules. You seem to be doing just fine to me. I'm also glad that you're sharing your knowledge of your faith with us.

I truly appreciate your words, your efforts and the outcome of your efforts in keeping this Forum as a safe place to discuss.
Glad to know you lived in my country. Mucho gusto!

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

I don't think scripture teaches a general eternal punishment of those who do not come to Christ. If I'm right on that, that is not a true issue. However, God has destroyed nations surrounding Israel in their worship of false Gods, including those in Babylon. Much of this appears to be for the sake of preparing a safe ground for spreading the gospel message in its earlier years.
Is God obligated to your conception of genocide or does God have the right to destroy those who hate him? Is it logical to assume God will resurrect people whose nature and practices show them as enemies of God? Indeed, even those of us who have come to God were enemies but have been changed in our nature (Rom 5:10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life. ).
God has a plan and we may not always grasp the ins-and-outs of what is happening. We do see however that people often reject the gospel despite hearing it. Why would they somehow accept it after they die?

.

Very interesting post, mikesw.
I'll quit for today, but hope to be able to continue the conversation tomorrow. May God give you a pleasant rest tonight.