Taking credit for your salvation

[The Rogue Tomato]

And now folks my story is ended
I think it is time I should quit
If anyone of you feel offended
Stick your head in a barrel of shhhh-

-aving cream
Be nice and clean
Shave every day and you'll always look keen

 

[praise_yeshua]

And now folks my story is ended
I think it is time I should quit
If anyone of you feel offended
Stick your head in a barrel of shhhh-

-aving cream
Be nice and clean
Shave every day and you'll always look keen

Why?

 

[TibiasDad]

I have no problem with this @TibiasDad-I am aware this was to @The Rogue Tomato.
Would you say God is active, or passive in the affairs of the kosmos?

Colossians 1:17 (NIV)
"He is before all things, and in him all things hold together."

John 1:3 (NIV)
"Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made."

2 Peter 3:7 (NIV)
"By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly."

Psalm 33:6 (NIV)
"By the word of the Lord the heavens were made, their starry host by the breath of his mouth."

Psalm 147:15-18 (NIV)
"He sends his command to the earth; his word runs swiftly. He spreads the snow like wool and scatters the frost like ashes. He hurls down his hail like pebbles. Who can withstand his icy blast? He sends his word and melts them; he stirs up his breezes, and the waters flow."

I hold these verses collectively emphasize Jesus' divine authority and power in creation, sustaining the universe, and fulfilling God's purposes through His word.

Yes, God is very active in his creation.

Doug

 

[TibiasDad]

Of all the ways that God could get Joseph in Egypt, God needed the brothers to sin?

I see these requirements in your statement above.

God needs nothing outside of himself.

Doug

 

[Johann]

Yes, God is very active in his creation.

Doug

Thank you-I have to ask, would you say the Reformers are children of the Devil-heretics?
I believe you are familiar with the Wesleyan Holiness Movement?

 

[Johann]

And now folks my story is ended
I think it is time I should quit
If anyone of you feel offended
Stick your head in a barrel of shhhh-

-aving cream
Be nice and clean
Shave every day and you'll always look keen

I have to smile-this is good.

 

[TibiasDad]

Thank you-I have to ask, would you say the Reformers are children of the Devil-heretics?
I believe you are familiar with the Wesleyan Holiness Movement?

I am a Wesleyan adherent, and I would not say that those who are Calvinist are heretics, nor children of the devil.

I am well aware of Wesley’s extreme views on Calvin’s teachings and especially on Calvinists: I also know that later in his life he came to appreciate many who were Calvinist, especially Whitefield, Wesley’s best friend. Wesley preached Whitefield’s funeral.

If memory serves, Wesley was asked if he would see Whitefield in heaven? To which Wesley replied, “No, he will be far too close to the throne for me to be able to see him.”

Like Wesley, I believe that the tenants of Calvinism pose a danger to the life of the church as a whole, but I do not think that means those who hold these views are not or cannot be true and faithful believers.

I used to participate over on CARM forums, a Calvinistic based website, and I had very good relationships with many Calvinists over there, and there were some whom I do not miss in the least. (My distaste is based solely on their behavior in the forum, not their soteriology; any personal opinions as to their relationship with Jesus being genuine were also founded solely on their consistent patterns of behavior. Jesus had one criteria for who is a true follower: “love one another”! Our soteriology doesn’t matter; our obedience and character do!)

Doug

 

[civic]

I am a Wesleyan adherent, and I would not say that those who are Calvinist are heretics, nor children of the devil.

I am well aware of Wesley’s extreme views on Calvin’s teachings and especially on Calvinists: I also know that later in his life he came to appreciate many who were Calvinist, especially Whitefield, Wesley’s best friend. Wesley preached Whitefield’s funeral.

If memory serves, Wesley was asked if he would see Whitefield in heaven? To which Wesley replied, “No, he will be far too close to the throne for me to be able to see him.”

Like Wesley, I believe that the tenants of Calvinism pose a danger to the life of the church as a whole, but I do not think that means those who hold these views are not or cannot be true and faithful believers.

I used to participate over on CARM forums, a Calvinistic based website, and I had very good relationships with many Calvinists over there, and there were some whom I do not miss in the least. (My distaste is based solely on their behavior in the forum, not their soteriology; any personal opinions as to their relationship with Jesus being genuine were also founded solely on their consistent patterns of behavior. Jesus had one criteria for who is a true follower: “love one another”! Our soteriology doesn’t matter; our obedience and character do!)

Doug

Well said

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

I have to smile-this is good.

 

[Johann]

I am a Wesleyan adherent, and I would not say that those who are Calvinist are heretics, nor children of the devil.

I am well aware of Wesley’s extreme views on Calvin’s teachings and especially on Calvinists: I also know that later in his life he came to appreciate many who were Calvinist, especially Whitefield, Wesley’s best friend. Wesley preached Whitefield’s funeral.

If memory serves, Wesley was asked if he would see Whitefield in heaven? To which Wesley replied, “No, he will be far too close to the throne for me to be able to see him.”

Like Wesley, I believe that the tenants of Calvinism pose a danger to the life of the church as a whole, but I do not think that means those who hold these views are not or cannot be true and faithful believers.

I used to participate over on CARM forums, a Calvinistic based website, and I had very good relationships with many Calvinists over there, and there were some whom I do not miss in the least. (My distaste is based solely on their behavior in the forum, not their soteriology; any personal opinions as to their relationship with Jesus being genuine were also founded solely on their consistent patterns of behavior. Jesus had one criteria for who is a true follower: “love one another”! Our soteriology doesn’t matter; our obedience and character do!)

Doug

This was a well written and mature response brother and I concur "Love one another!" with a life fully yielded to Jesus and the Holy Spirit. obeying His Imperatives.
Thank you and God bless.

Quote from John Wesley about George Whitefield:

When asked if he would see Whitefield in heaven, Wesley replied, "No, he will be so near the throne, and I so far away, that I shall hardly get a sight of him."

 

[praise_yeshua]

God needs nothing outside of himself.

Doug

Then why was this necessary to God?

 

[praise_yeshua]

I have to smile-this is good.

So Christlike... Right?

It is nothing more than a debate tactic to pretend you are morally superior.

 

[praise_yeshua]

I am a Wesleyan adherent, and I would not say that those who are Calvinist are heretics, nor children of the devil.

I am well aware of Wesley’s extreme views on Calvin’s teachings and especially on Calvinists: I also know that later in his life he came to appreciate many who were Calvinist, especially Whitefield, Wesley’s best friend. Wesley preached Whitefield’s funeral.

If memory serves, Wesley was asked if he would see Whitefield in heaven? To which Wesley replied, “No, he will be far too close to the throne for me to be able to see him.”

Like Wesley, I believe that the tenants of Calvinism pose a danger to the life of the church as a whole, but I do not think that means those who hold these views are not or cannot be true and faithful believers.

I used to participate over on CARM forums, a Calvinistic based website, and I had very good relationships with many Calvinists over there, and there were some whom I do not miss in the least. (My distaste is based solely on their behavior in the forum, not their soteriology; any personal opinions as to their relationship with Jesus being genuine were also founded solely on their consistent patterns of behavior. Jesus had one criteria for who is a true follower: “love one another”! Our soteriology doesn’t matter; our obedience and character do!)

Doug

Wesley was right in this. The idea that Calvinism is compatible with a flourish Christian life that pleases God is preposterous.

You must also believe that Calvinist are living in sin which requires their damnation based upon your systematic theological beliefs.

I've never understood how people abandon what they believe in an attempt to appear reasonable. If you believe Calvinists preach a false gospel then your theology requires their damnation. There is no other option.

Myself, I have a low threshold for salvation. There are many carnal Christians that care about nothing but themselves. I owe all of mankind my care and love. Loving someone doesn't require accepting their nonsense.. No chastening is fun.

 

[Rockson]

I am a Wesleyan adherent, and I would not say that those who are Calvinist are heretics, nor children of the devil.

They could be. But so can Non-Calvinists too. Just a mere mental agreement with theological positions doesn't mean one is a child of God. Some I believe make the mistake of worshiping theology...that's really their god......but not the God of the theology. The may not even pray or have any relationship with the Creator whatsoever. I would say Calvinists do have heretical teachings but I hold back from saying they are heretics in the sense they won't be actually saved. James says not for everyone to long to be a teacher as those who influence others will be subject to a greater scrutiny at the judgement. Jm 3:1

I am well aware of Wesley’s extreme views on Calvin’s teachings and especially on Calvinists: I also know that later in his life he came to appreciate many who were Calvinist, especially Whitefield, Wesley’s best friend. Wesley preached Whitefield’s funeral.

Something I think needs considered though.....there are many who on paper claim to be Calvinists and in their way of thinking they are......but they somehow set aside what they say they are on paper and go out and preach the gospel in a way and manner in which one would think that they're not. They appeal to people to respond to the gospel and for all the be reconciled to God. It's sort of like Calvinism is like on some back shelf in corner of their mind....and they let it stay that way. I think a lot of Non Calvinists are aware of this about many or some Calvinists and it makes it easy for them to flow with them in fellowship and I believe rightly so.

 

[praise_yeshua]

They could be. But so can Non-Calvinists too. Just a mere mental agreement with theological positions doesn't mean one is a child of God. Some I believe make the mistake of worshiping theology...that's really their god......but not the God of the theology. The may not even pray or have any relationship with the Creator whatsoever. I would say Calvinists do have heretical teachings but I hold back from saying they are heretics in the sense they won't be actually saved. James says not for everyone to long to be a teacher as those who influence others will be subject to a greater scrutiny at the judgement. Jm 3:1

Something I think needs considered though.....there are many who on paper claim to be Calvinists and in their way of thinking they are......but they somehow set aside what they say they are on paper and go out and preach the gospel in a way and manner in which one would think that they're not. They appeal to people to respond to the gospel and for all the be reconciled to God. It's sort of like Calvinism is like on some back shelf in corner of their mind....and they let it stay that way. I think a lot of Non Calvinists are aware of this about many or some Calvinists and it makes it easy for them to flow with them in fellowship and I believe rightly so.

There is no escaping the fact that they hate their brothers and sisters in Adam. Paul rejoiced that Christ was still named but it didn't stop him from continuing to deal with their false powerless gospel.

There is hope for all men. Christ died for all men. There is hope for all men. That is the Gospel. If you preach this, they will attack you.

 

[TibiasDad]

Something I think needs considered though.....there are many who on paper claim to be Calvinists and in their way of thinking they are......but they somehow set aside what they say they are on paper and go out and preach the gospel in a way and manner in which one would think that they're not. They appeal to people to respond to the gospel and for all the be reconciled to God. It's sort of like Calvinism is like on some back shelf in corner of their mind....and they let it stay that way. I think a lot of Non Calvinists are aware of this about many or some Calvinists and it makes it easy for them to flow with them in fellowship and I believe rightly so.

Wesley was right in this. The idea that Calvinism is compatible with a flourish Christian life that pleases God is preposterous.

I had a professor in college that said that “many Calvinists live above their theology, and too many Wesleyans live below theirs.”

Doug

 

[Johann]

I had a professor in college that said that “many Calvinists live above their theology, and too many Wesleyans live below theirs.”

Doug

Might be wrong but I found this @TibiasDad

The quote “many Calvinists live above their theology, and too many Wesleyans live below theirs” is attributed to John Wesley. Wesley, the founder of Methodism, was known for his practical theology and emphasis on holiness and Christian living, and this quote reflects his critical yet insightful view on how adherents of different theological traditions often live out their beliefs.

 

[TibiasDad]

Myself, I have a low threshold for salvation.

Jesus’s threshold was clear and very high:
“By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.” (John 13:35)

Doug

 

[praise_yeshua]

I had a professor in college that said that “many Calvinists live above their theology, and too many Wesleyans live below theirs.”

Doug

How can you love above your theology when you hate or you preach hate for your brother.

The Pharisees loved their own while they made the men they hated their servants.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Jesus’s threshold was clear and very high:
“By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.” (John 13:35)

Doug

You don't see a contradiction in what you've been saying and what you just said?

Faith grows. Child like faith is all that is required. Do you correct those you love? Jesus does. You can't correct those you love by accepting their nonsense.