Show me the Father

Soyeong

Active member
The attitudes that we show through works that we choose to do show what we believe about the attributes that the Father is. For example, our good works testify about the Father's goodness, which is why they bring glory to Him (Matthew 5:13), so doing good works is the way to believe that the Father is good, and is correspondingly true about showing who the Father is by doing works that testify about His attributes, such as holiness, righteousness, justice, mercy, faithfulness in obedience to His instructions.

John 14:8-11 Philip said to him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us.” 9 Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority, but the Father who dwells in me does his works. 11 Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father is in me, or else believe on account of the works themselves.

The Son is the image of the invisible God (Colossians 1:15) and the radiance of God's glory and the exact image of His nature (Hebrews 1:3), so for example, righteousness is an invisible attitude of the Father that we can't see, but the Son is righteousness made flesh in a form that we can see, which is why he said that that whoever has seen him has seen the Father. Jesus showed the righteousness of the Father was in him through his works by walking in sinless obedience to the Torah, so his works supported the belief that he is in the Father. Likewise, this is why those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way he walked (1 John 2:6), which is testifying about Christ's attributes being in us through follow his example of walking in obedience to the Torah.
 
The attitudes that we show through works that we choose to do show what we believe about the attributes that the Father is. For example, our good works testify about the Father's goodness, which is why they bring glory to Him (Matthew 5:13), so doing good works is the way to believe that the Father is good, and is correspondingly true about showing who the Father is by doing works that testify about His attributes, such as holiness, righteousness, justice, mercy, faithfulness in obedience to His instructions.

John 14:8-11 Philip said to him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us.” 9 Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority, but the Father who dwells in me does his works. 11 Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father is in me, or else believe on account of the works themselves.

The Son is the image of the invisible God (Colossians 1:15) and the radiance of God's glory and the exact image of His nature (Hebrews 1:3), so for example, righteousness is an invisible attitude of the Father that we can't see, but the Son is righteousness made flesh in a form that we can see, which is why he said that that whoever has seen him has seen the Father. Jesus showed the righteousness of the Father was in him through his works by walking in sinless obedience to the Torah, so his works supported the belief that he is in the Father. Likewise, this is why those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way he walked (1 John 2:6), which is testifying about Christ's attributes being in us through follow his example of walking in obedience to the Torah.

So when are you going to do all of these wonderful works that Jesus did?

You don't even realize that such teachings are self defeating. You know why? Because you can't do what you claim is required.

Aren't you looking to be equal to the Son?
 
So when are you going to do all of these wonderful works that Jesus did?
The issue of what works I am doing is independent of the issue of whether followers of God should follow what God has commanded in accordance with the example that Jesus set for us to follow, so even if I were living in complete disobedience to God, it wouldn't change the fact that we should do that.

You don't even realize that such teachings are self defeating. You know why? Because you can't do what you claim is required.
God's word says that what it requires us not too difficult for us to do and I believe it.

Aren't you looking to be equal to the Son?
No.

It's not clear to me how your response interacted with anything that I said in the OP.
 
The issue of what works I am doing is independent of the issue of whether followers of God should follow what God has commanded in accordance with the example that Jesus set for us to follow, so even if I were living in complete disobedience to God, it wouldn't change the fact that we should do that.

So tell me who is doing the works that Jesus did? No one ever spoke like Jesus. No one. No one ever raised the dead like Jesus. No one. No one came back from the grave like Jesus did.

We have assurance based upon the Resurrection.

Act 17:31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

I see people claiming this nonsense all the time. I'll take Jesus over them all. No one is like Him.

God's word says that what it requires us not too difficult for us to do and I believe it.

Yeah. You keep saying. Why don't you prove it by doing it. You haven't. You can't. Have you considered the possibly you don't understand what you're reading?

No.

It's not clear to me how your response interacted with anything that I said in the OP.

If you can do everything Jesus did, then you would be equal to Jesus. Didn't you just post a verse where Jesus said for those to believe on Him because of the works He did? You did this as evidence that we can do the same. Why do you not recognize this?

You can't say "When you've seen me, you've seen the Father". Jesus alone can say such.
 
So tell me who is doing the works that Jesus did? No one ever spoke like Jesus. No one. No one ever raised the dead like Jesus. No one. No one came back from the grave like Jesus did.

We have assurance based upon the Resurrection.

Act 17:31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

I see people claiming this nonsense all the time. I'll take Jesus over them all. No one is like Him.
Anyone can follow Christ's example of obedience to God's law, though I agree that he is unique.

Yeah. You keep saying. Why don't you prove it by doing it. You haven't. You can't. Have you considered the possibly you don't understand what you're reading?
Deuteronomy 30:11-20 states that God's law is not too difficult to obey and that obedience brings life and a blessing while disobedience brings death and a curse, so choose life! So it was presented as a possibility and a a choice, not as something that no one but Jesus can do. I have obeyed it. There is always the possibility that I've misunderstood what I am reading, though you would need to make the case for that.

If you can do everything Jesus did, then you would be equal to Jesus. Didn't you just post a verse where Jesus said for those to believe on Him because of the works He did? You did this as evidence that we can do the same. Why do you not recognize this?

You can't say "When you've seen me, you've seen the Father". Jesus alone can say such.
I never claimed that I can do everything that Jesus did, though there are works that he did that I can also do. Yes, I posted John 14:8-11. In the next verse, Jesus went on to say:

12 “Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do, because I am going to the Father.

People can see the Father through our actions to the extent that we are testifying about His attributes. For example, when we do good works in obedience to the Father's commands, people are seeing the Father's goodness, which is why our good works bring glory to Him.
 
Anyone can follow Christ's example of obedience to God's law, though I agree that he is unique.

Nonsense. Jesus is the Lawgiver and judge. You're ignoring this fact. He doesn't have to live by a law that was given to Moses to control rebels.

Deuteronomy 30:11-20 states that God's law is not too difficult to obey and that obedience brings life and a blessing while disobedience brings death and a curse, so choose life! So it was presented as a possibility and a a choice, not as something that no one but Jesus can do. I have obeyed it. There is always the possibility that I've misunderstood what I am reading, though you would need to make the case for that.

You haven't obey the law of Moses. Are you seriously claiming it. James said if you break it in one facet, you've broken it all. You're guilty... yet you claim obedience. You're lying. Is lying representative of the nature of God?

I never claimed that I can do everything that Jesus did, though there are works that he did that I can also do. Yes, I posted John 14:8-11. In the next verse, Jesus went on to say:

12 “Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do, because I am going to the Father.

People can see the Father through our actions to the extent that we are testifying about His attributes. For example, when we do good works in obedience to the Father's commands, people are seeing the Father's goodness, which is why our good works bring glory to Him.

So what are you going to do when you get so old and diminished to the point you can't keep the law? Will the law be too difficult for you then?

Moses was buried because of his disobedience to the law. You're no better than Moses. You really haven't thought this through. I don't expect you to actually answer. I expect you repeat yourself again.
 
@Soyeong

Deu 30:11 For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off.
Deu 30:12 It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?
Deu 30:13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?
Deu 30:14 But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.

It is dispicable to twist Deut 30:11-14 to the point of actually claiming these verse teach that one can keep the law of Moses. Paul used these very same verses and applied them specifically to the work of Christ.

Rom 10:5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.
Rom 10:6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above
Rom 10:7 Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)
Rom 10:8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
 
@Soyeong

Deu 30:6 And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.

This is a vital part of the Scriptural discourse you're referencing. This places subsequent verse as a prophetic declaration. In fact, this the very verse Paul is referencing in Roman's 2.

Rom 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
 
Nonsense. Jesus is the Lawgiver and judge. You're ignoring this fact. He doesn't have to live by a law that was given to Moses to control rebels.
I didn't say anything contrary to Jesus being the Lawgiver and Judge. In Galatians 4:4, Jesus was born under the law, so he was obligated to obey it, and he was sinless, so he never broke it. There would be no significance to Jesus being sinless if he was free to break it all he wanted. In John 15:10, Jesus said that he kept His Father's commandments, so even if hadn't been born under the law and had no obligation to obey it, he still chose to never break it.

You haven't obey the law of Moses. Are you seriously claiming it. James said if you break it in one facet, you've broken it all. You're guilty... yet you claim obedience. You're lying. Is lying representative of the nature of God?
In 1 John 5:3, to love God is to obey His commandments, which are not burdensome, so for you to claim that we can't obey it is to deny that anyone has ever loved God and to deny that God's commandments are not burdensome. Moreover, there are examples of people who did obey it, such as in Joshua 22:1-3, Luke 1:5-6, Revelation 14:12, and Revelation 22:14. In accordance with James 2:1-11, if I break any law and become a lawbreaker, then I need to repent and return to keeping it, so this ver has nothing to do with denying that we can keep it. You are falsely accusing me of lying, so it that representative of the nature of God?


So what are you going to do when you get so old and diminished to the point you can't keep the law? Will the law be too difficult for you then?

Moses was buried because of his disobedience to the law. You're no better than Moses. You really haven't thought this through. I don't expect you to actually answer. I expect you repeat yourself again.
No. I haven't claimed to be better than Moses. When you repeat false claims while neglecting to interact with my explanation for why they are false, then that doesn't make them any less false. It's not clear to me why you are expecting me not to answer.
 
@Soyeong

Deu 30:11 For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off.
Deu 30:12 It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?
Deu 30:13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?
Deu 30:14 But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.

It is dispicable to twist Deut 30:11-14 to the point of actually claiming these verse teach that one can keep the law of Moses. Paul used these very same verses and applied them specifically to the work of Christ

Rom 10:5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.
Rom 10:6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above
Rom 10:7 Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)
Rom 10:8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Everything in Deuteronomy 30:11-14 is building to the point that God's word is very near us, it is in our mouth and in our heart, so that we can do it, so I don't see how you can consider it to be despicably twisting these verses as that that we can do it. In Romans 10:5-10, Paul referenced these verses as being the word of faith that we proclaim in regard to saying that God's law is not too difficult for us to obey, that the one who obeys it will attain life by it, in regard to what we are agreeing to obey by confessing that Jesus is Lord, and in regard to the way to believe that God raised him from the dead.
 
@Soyeong

Deu 30:6 And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.

This is a vital part of the Scriptural discourse you're referencing. This places subsequent verse as a prophetic declaration. In fact, this the very verse Paul is referencing in Roman's 2.

Rom 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
In Deuteronomy 30:1-10, it prophesies about a time when the Israelites will return from exile, God will circumcise their hearts, and they will return to obedience to the Torah. In Jeremiah 31:33 and Ezekiel 36:26-27, they are speaking in regard to the New Covenant, the Israelites returning from exile, God circumcising our hearts my means of the Spirit, and returning to obedience to the Torah. In Romans 2:25-29, the way to recognize that a Gentile has a circumcise heart is by observing their obedience to the Torah, which is the same way to tell for a Jew, and circumcision of the heart is a matter of the Spirit, which is in contrast with Acts 7:51-53, where those who have uncircumcised hearts resist the Spirit and do not obey the Torah. So the New Covenant is all about the Israelites returning to obedience to the Torah and someone having a circumcised heart does not refer to anything other than them living in obedience to it.
 
I didn't say anything contrary to Jesus being the Lawgiver and Judge. In Galatians 4:4, Jesus was born under the law, so he was obligated to obey it, and he was sinless, so he never broke it. There would be no significance to Jesus being sinless if he was free to break it all he wanted. In John 15:10, Jesus said that he kept His Father's commandments, so even if hadn't been born under the law and had no obligation to obey it, he still chose to never break it.

1. Jesus was born under the penalty of the law. The requirements of every law are fulfilled with the death of Jesus Christ.

2. Jesus was IMPECCABLE. The Lawgiver has no requirement to live under the law given to His subjects. You are ignoring this. Prove He had such a requirement. The Father's commandments and requirements of Christ are different than the requirements of the law. That is why Jesus didn't say "I have always keep the law of Moses". Provide a quote wherein Jesus Christ said specifically that He had keep the law given to Moses. Prove it.

Lets stop right here. We will take this line by line or we can just agree to disagree.
 
The title of the thread brought me here. In John 14:5-14, Philip asks Jesus to show him the Father, but Jesus responds by saying that anyone who has seen him has seen the Father. There is a lot of teaching on that verse that can go several different directions. It says to me that if you have seen what Jesus has done (by reading his word) in his Earthly Ministry, then you've seen the will of the father. His attribute of creator and sustainer. If you seen Jesus by what he's accomplished then you see the author and finisher of our salvation. I don't know how many times I've heard sermons about the physical description of Jesus. That he was just ordinary to look at, Nothing stood out.

According to Joan Taylor, the author of "What Did Jesus Look Like?", Jesus most likely had brown eyes, dark brown to black hair, and olive-brown skin, similar to most people in Judea and Egypt at the time. She used archaeological remains, historical texts, and ancient Egyptian funerary art to conclude that Jesus was about 5 feet 5 inches tall, the average height found in skeletal remains from males at the time. The book of Revelation describes Jesus as the "Son of Man" who is clothed with a garment going down to His feet and a golden sash around His chest.

I've often wondered how different races around the globe view Jesus. In America the paintings we see of Jesus mostly portray the Caucasian Jesus. Do you think in Japan the Christians there perhaps could see in their minds eye and Oriental Jesus?

The real point is it doesn't matter what Jesus looked like, what matters is how much He loved us and that was enough to go to the cross for us.

He always did the will of the Father.
 
The title of the thread brought me here. In John 14:5-14, Philip asks Jesus to show him the Father, but Jesus responds by saying that anyone who has seen him has seen the Father. There is a lot of teaching on that verse that can go several different directions. It says to me that if you have seen what Jesus has done (by reading his word) in his Earthly Ministry, then you've seen the will of the father. His attribute of creator and sustainer. If you seen Jesus by what he's accomplished then you see the author and finisher of our salvation. I don't know how many times I've heard sermons about the physical description of Jesus. That he was just ordinary to look at, Nothing stood out.

According to Joan Taylor, the author of "What Did Jesus Look Like?", Jesus most likely had brown eyes, dark brown to black hair, and olive-brown skin, similar to most people in Judea and Egypt at the time. She used archaeological remains, historical texts, and ancient Egyptian funerary art to conclude that Jesus was about 5 feet 5 inches tall, the average height found in skeletal remains from males at the time. The book of Revelation describes Jesus as the "Son of Man" who is clothed with a garment going down to His feet and a golden sash around His chest.

I've often wondered how different races around the globe view Jesus. In America the paintings we see of Jesus mostly portray the Caucasian Jesus. Do you think in Japan the Christians there perhaps could see in their minds eye and Oriental Jesus?

The real point is it doesn't matter what Jesus looked like, what matters is how much He loved us and that was enough to go to the cross for us.

He always did the will of the Father.
And He has the exact/ identical nature as the Father, a Divine nature with the same attributes as Him.
 
The title of the thread brought me here. In John 14:5-14, Philip asks Jesus to show him the Father, but Jesus responds by saying that anyone who has seen him has seen the Father. There is a lot of teaching on that verse that can go several different directions. It says to me that if you have seen what Jesus has done (by reading his word) in his Earthly Ministry, then you've seen the will of the father. His attribute of creator and sustainer. If you seen Jesus by what he's accomplished then you see the author and finisher of our salvation. I don't know how many times I've heard sermons about the physical description of Jesus. That he was just ordinary to look at, Nothing stood out.

According to Joan Taylor, the author of "What Did Jesus Look Like?", Jesus most likely had brown eyes, dark brown to black hair, and olive-brown skin, similar to most people in Judea and Egypt at the time. She used archaeological remains, historical texts, and ancient Egyptian funerary art to conclude that Jesus was about 5 feet 5 inches tall, the average height found in skeletal remains from males at the time. The book of Revelation describes Jesus as the "Son of Man" who is clothed with a garment going down to His feet and a golden sash around His chest.

I've often wondered how different races around the globe view Jesus. In America the paintings we see of Jesus mostly portray the Caucasian Jesus. Do you think in Japan the Christians there perhaps could see in their minds eye and Oriental Jesus?

The real point is it doesn't matter what Jesus looked like, what matters is how much He loved us and that was enough to go to the cross for us.

He always did the will of the Father.
I agree that that refers to Jesus doing the will of the Father and the Father has made His will known through what He has commanded in the Torah (Psalms 40:8), which is the way to express His attributes like holiness, righteousness, and goodness, but is not referring to his physical appearance.

Yes, pictures of Jesus tend to adopt the ethnic traits of that region, such as with pictures of Jesus in Japan having slanted eyes or with pictures of Jesus in South Africa having dark skin. Part of the reason for this is with missionaries wanting to present Jesus in a manner that the people of that region are more likely to accept rather than present him as being a foreigner. For example, there are people who dismiss Christianity because they consider it to be a "white man's religion" because of how is he commonly portrayed in art as being a white European
 
I agree that that refers to Jesus doing the will of the Father and the Father has made His will known through what He has commanded in the Torah (Psalms 40:8), which is the way to express His attributes like holiness, righteousness, and goodness, but is not referring to his physical appearance.

Yes, pictures of Jesus tend to adopt the ethnic traits of that region, such as with pictures of Jesus in Japan having slanted eyes or with pictures of Jesus in South Africa having dark skin. Part of the reason for this is with missionaries wanting to present Jesus in a manner that the people of that region are more likely to accept rather than present him as being a foreigner. For example, there are people who dismiss Christianity because they consider it to be a "white man's religion" because of how is he commonly portrayed in art as being a white European
That's very interesting I never thought of that.
 
So when are you going to do all of these wonderful works that Jesus did?

You don't even realize that such teachings are self defeating. You know why? Because you can't do what you claim is required.

Aren't you looking to be equal to the Son?
As believers we are predestinated to be conformed to the Image of Christ. It's not an unconditional thing, as Calvinists believe, but as an on-going process throughout our life. That's our goal and in no way does that make us equal to Christ.

(Rom 8:29) For whom He foreknew, He also predestinated to be conformed to the image of His Son, for Him to be the First-born among many brothers.
 
As believers we are predestinated to be conformed to the Image of Christ. It's not an unconditional thing, as Calvinists believe, but as an on-going process throughout our life. That's our goal and in no way does that make us equal to Christ.

(Rom 8:29) For whom He foreknew, He also predestinated to be conformed to the image of His Son, for Him to be the First-born among many brothers.

I believe you are correct. Though He was God Incarnate, He humbled Himself and sought no reputation. That is conformity to image of the Son.
 
As believers we are predestinated to be conformed to the Image of Christ. It's not an unconditional thing, as Calvinists believe, but as an on-going process throughout our life. That's our goal and in no way does that make us equal to Christ.

(Rom 8:29) For whom He foreknew, He also predestinated to be conformed to the image of His Son, for Him to be the First-born among many brothers.
Oh I like that that's a good one. That's how to keep a positive attitude. Your absolutely right there's no way in the world we could ever be equal to Christ. Just off the top of my head if I had to endure what he endured to ensure our salvation... guess what? We would all be going to that real hot place with all that torment going on.
 
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