Romans 9 actually contradicts Calvinism not supports Calvinism

[civic]

Craig vs Piper on Romans 9.

Remember Israel- the Jews are Gods Elect/ Chosen people.

Pauls summary of Romans 9: Faith vs Works is what Paul is addressing in Romans 9. Gentiles ( non elect by faith ) Jews/Israel ( Gods elect,chosen) by works.

Romans 9
That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; 31 but the people of Israel, who pursued the law as the way of righteousness, have not attained their goal. 32 Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone. 33 As it is written:

“See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes people to stumble
and a rock that makes them fall,
and the one who believes in him will never be put to shame.

The above is the same teaching in Romans 3 below :

Romans 3
But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from law, although the law and the prophets bear witness to it, 22 the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction; 23 since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 they are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God put forward as an expiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins; 26 it was to prove at the present time that he himself is righteous and that he justifies him who has faith in Jesus. 27 Then what becomes of our boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On the principle of works? No, but on the principle of faith. 28 For we hold that a man is justified by faith apart from works of law. 29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30 since God is one; and he will justify the circumcised on the ground of their faith and the uncircumcised through their faith.

Romans 9: Piper vs William Lane Craig

Dr. Flowers play a portion of a message on Romans 9 from Dr. John Piper (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D0TlZ-fn-IE) and compares it to a message by Dr. Wil...

www.youtube.com

 

[Diserner]

I would say the first half sounds like Calvinism, but the last few verses certainly don't fit that framework.

I don't think it's a good witness when people don't admit some things in Romans 9 really do sound like Calvinism, it's a lack of honesty.

 

[civic]

I would say the first half sounds like Calvinism, but the last few verses certainly don't fit that framework.

I don't think it's a good witness when people don't admit some things in Romans 9 really do sound like Calvinism, it's a lack of honesty.

Agreed that " out of the biblical context " it sounds like calvinism, But in the greater context it actually contradicts calvinism. I use to be blinded to the passage for decades because of my calvinist lens in which I read the passage.

 

[Diserner]

Agreed that " out of the biblical context " it sounds like calvinism, But in the greater context it actually contradicts calvinism. I use to be blinded to the passage for decades because of my calvinist lens in which I read the passage.

I have studied this chapter for hours upon hours in excruciating detail, I still can't say I certainly understand it.

I don't find Flower's cheap solutions really that convincing.

Revelation doesn't come by intellectual mastication.

 

[civic]

And if we keep reading into chapter 9 the hardened Jew/reprobate is whom Paul prays for in their temporary hardening until all the gentiles are grafted into the branch. The potter/clay is God using the hardened Jews- His elect,chosen people ( destruction ) to bring in non elect vessels of glory ( gentiles) their salvation. The potter/clay is another analogy that contradicts calvinism, not support it. Once the glasses/lens are removed one can see the passages in their greater biblical context and harmonize them.

hope this helps !!!

 

[civic]

I have studied this chapter for hours upon hours in excruciating detail, I still can't say I certainly understand it.

I don't find Flower's cheap solutions really that convincing.

Revelation doesn't come by intellectual mastication.

You can't listen to him in the same way I cannot listen to Calvin, RC, Piper etc......... I see their views much less convincing than his views which are more convincing.

I think if you had to pick between Calvin and Leighton you would be a calvinist,

I wouldn't think twice about it and would side with Leighton. Its not even close.

JMHO FWIW.

 

[civic]

Arminians/ Provisionists are much more aligned in their soteriology than Arminians and Calvinists.

 

[Seabass]

Rom 11
God casts off the once elect Jews and graffs in the once unelect Gentiles. Even though the Gentiles are now of the elect, they are warned they could be cast off just as the Jew and not be of the elect..

"Be not highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee
Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off."

And because the Jews were cast off did not eman they could never be of the elect again

"And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again."

Rom 10-11
The Jews were cast off because they would not obey GOd, they woud not "submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God" .. "because of unbelief they were broken off" (Rom 11) for they would not believe, not confess, not obey the gospel (Rom 10:9-10,16).

Hence election is NOT something that was caprciously, unconditionally predertermined choice made by God for each individual that has been "set in stone" and unchangable. The Jews cast off and Gentiles grafted in was not some capricious uncodnitional chioce made by God apart feom men's choices but the Jews were cast off for their free will choice in rejecting Christ and His gospel and the Gentiles grafted in for choosing to accept Christ and His gospel (Acts 13:46).

Rom 9
Before tellig us in Rom 10 and 11 that the Jews were cast off due to their disobedience, Paul in Rom 9 first dispells some of the false notions the Jews had about salvation in Rom 9.

One of the main misconception of the Jews was they tho't their being direct descendants of Araham that meant automatic, unconditional election of them therefore they would be put in the Messiah's Kingdom when He came to earth simply based on their descendency. John refuted that idea in Matthew 3:9...
"And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham."
Paul refutes it also by showing How Esau (Edomites) were just as much the true decendants of Isaac and Abraham as were the Jews but they were not chosen to be the ones to whom the Messiah would enter the world. Hence Paul proves that God does not have to base His choices/promises solely on physical descent. That "They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed." And ANYONE (Jew or Gentile) who chooses to become a Christian are the chidlren of promise (Gal 3:26-29).

This has nothing at all to do with the Calvinistic idea of election.

The Jews wrongly tho't salvation was only for them and if the Gentile had any hope to be saved the Gentile would have to become like the Jew (Gal 2:14; Acts 15:1-2) yet GOd can have mercy upon whom He will have mercy (Gentiles) and it is not up to the Jews to decide who will be saved nor the conditions required to saved.

Paul used OT examples and applied to them to the Jews. Paul used Pharoah's free will choice in disobeying God and how God used that free will choice in furthering His own will Rom 10:17. Likewise, God used the free will choice of the Jews disobeidence in rejecting and crucifying the Messiah to bring about His will in Christ dying on the cross for the sins of man. And God using man's free will choice to accomplish His own will does not obligate God to chose/elect/save those men.

Rom 9 is not a lesson on Calvinism but Paul's refutation of the Jew's false belief about God and salvation which led to their being cast off Rom 11.

 

[TomL]

Agreed that " out of the biblical context " it sounds like calvinism, But in the greater context it actually contradicts calvinism. I use to be blinded to the passage for decades because of my calvinist lens in which I read the passage.

It is really hard to see Calvinism when reading

Romans 9:30–32 (ESV) — 30 What shall we say, then? That Gentiles who did not pursue righteousness have attained it, that is, a righteousness that is by faith; 31 but that Israel who pursued a law that would lead to righteousness did not succeed in reaching that law. 32 Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as if it were based on works. They have stumbled over the stumbling stone,

Romans 10:18–21 (ESV) — 18 But I ask, have they not heard? Indeed they have, for “Their voice has gone out to all the earth, and their words to the ends of the world.” 19 But I ask, did Israel not understand? First Moses says, “I will make you jealous of those who are not a nation; with a foolish nation I will make you angry.” 20 Then Isaiah is so bold as to say, “I have been found by those who did not seek me; I have shown myself to those who did not ask for me.” 21 But of Israel he says, “All day long I have held out my hands to a disobedient and contrary people.”

Romans 11:19–23 (ESV) — 19 Then you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. 22 Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off. 23 And even they, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again.

 

[Diserner]

Arminians/ Provisionists are much more aligned in their soteriology than Arminians and Calvinists.

I'm not so sure of that.

Calling God evil is a sin for sure.

But calling man good is worse than a sin, it's denying sin altogether.

 

[Diserner]

It is really hard to see Calvinism when reading

Yeah, I'm thankful for those verses.

Anyone who says Romans 9 isn't difficult is just lying and arrogant.

 

[TomL]

I'm not so sure of that.

Calling God evil is a sin for sure.

But calling man good is worse than a sin, it's denying sin altogether.

But Provisionists do not call men good.

ARTICLE TWO: THE SINFULNESS OF MAN​

We affirm that, because of the fall of Adam, every person inherits a nature and environment inclined toward sin and that every person who is capable of moral action will sin. Each person’s sin alone brings the wrath of a holy God, broken fellowship with Him, ever-worsening selfishness and destructiveness, death, and condemnation to an eternity in hell.


I agree with Civic, There is not that much separating Arminians and Provisionists.

 

[Diserner]

But Provisionists do not call men good.

In practice, they often do.

Sadly.

 

[TomL]

And if we keep reading into chapter 9 the hardened Jew/reprobate is whom Paul prays for in their temporary hardening until all the gentiles are grafted into the branch. The potter/clay is God using the hardened Jews- His elect,chosen people ( destruction ) to bring in non elect vessels of glory ( gentiles) their salvation. The potter/clay is another analogy that contradicts calvinism, not support it. Once the glasses/lens are removed one can see the passages in their greater biblical context and harmonize them.

hope this helps !!!

Yes it is really anachronistic to imagine Paul was discussing matters of Calvinism vs Arminianism when Paul's interlocutor was hardened Jew objecting to God's use of the Jews for an ignoble purpose

And that clay was mighty stubborn and self-willed

Jeremiah 18:11–12 (NASB 2020) — 11 So now, speak to the men of Judah and against the inhabitants of Jerusalem, saying, ‘This is what the LORD says: “Behold, I am forming a disaster against you and devising a plan against you. Now turn back, each of you from his evil way, and correct your ways and your deeds!” ’ 12 But they will say, ‘It’s hopeless! For we are going to follow our own plans, and each of us will persist in the stubbornness of his evil heart.’

 

[TomL]

In practice, they often do.

Sadly.

Um I really do not think so

 

[Tranquil]

What is Provisionism? Good video

Our Beliefs

What is Provisionism? Please watch this video to better understand why some of us prefer the label “Provisionism” over “Arminianism” or “Traditionalism.” The foc…

soteriology101.com

 

[TomL]

What is Provisionism? Good video

Our Beliefs

What is Provisionism? Please watch this video to better understand why some of us prefer the label “Provisionism” over “Arminianism” or “Traditionalism.” The foc…

soteriology101.com

In times past, Arminians held to a partial regeneration prior to faith. They held this to be necessary because they accepted the doctrine of total inability. Now a number of Arminians taught that total inability however was removed as a result of Christ's atonement, so man was born capable of faith. Other held that no, but all that would believe given prevenient grace were in fact given it. The Newer understanding however has rejected partial regeneration and just posits the need for grace to believe. Provisionists have never held to partial regeneration and believe the word along with conviction of the Spirit through the word is all that is needed. That I believe is the extent of the differences between Arminians and Provisionists.