PSA in the early Christian church
- Thread starter Dizerner
- Start date
civic
Active Member
I can quote any poster I want to in the forum , they don’t have to respond.
And I’m not making personal attacks I’m just exposing false doctrines. You are making personal comments , attacks
Johann
Active Member
synergy
Active Member
Did you even read his post? It makes excellent comments on how the Septuagint stands opposed to the non-Biblical PSA belief. You've expressed great respect for the Septuagint before so I would be interested in your thoughts.
synergy
Active Member
I see where we diverge. This can be classified under irreconcilable differences. I'll stick with the Septuagint, the OT that the Apostles overwhelmingly appealed to when they wrote their Epistles.
Johann
Active Member
After years of study, including ancient rabbinic sources and more, I can confidently share that Penal Substitutionary Atonement (PSA) is biblical and non-negotiable for me.
As Scripture says, "Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried, that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures" (1 Corinthians 15:3–4).
Ultimately, it’s a relationship with Christ, led by the Holy Spirit, that matters most — not theological differences.
“For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ and Him crucified.” (1 Corinthians 2:2)
Christ Jesus, His death, His resurrection, and a thorough understanding of the Holy Spirit’s role in the lives of believers are far more important to me than “irreconcilable differences.”
Shalom to you and family.
J.
synergy
Active Member
I respect but do not align myself with your convictions. You do know that the Epistles you're appealing to align themselves perfectly with the Septuagint view of the Atonement (Expiation, not Propitiation) as they are overwhelmingly based on quotes from the Septuagint OT.
Shalom to you and your family also.
Pancho Frijoles
Active Member
I can testify that I have never read any personal attack from civic.
Even in the moments we disagree the most about a certain subject, civic has always shown respect to me. He focuses on the subjects being discussed... not in my moral life.... not in the eternal fire that awaits me.
Being respectful in a forum centered on Christ should not be a matter of profitable "courtesy". It should be considered, a priori at least, as evidence of the action of the Holy Spirit.
synergy
Active Member
I totally agree and second the motion!
Pancho Frijoles
Active Member
One thing is that the Messiah would suffer. There's no debate about that.
A very different thing is PSA. This is the debate we are having.
WHAT IS NOT BEING DEBATED: Jesus as prototype of the "Suffering Servant" (a figure originally given to the nation of Israel, and later on, by extension, to the Messiah). In fact, Jesus explained to the two disciples going to Emaus, and Philip explained the Ethiopian eunuch, that the Messiah would suffer according to Scriptures. Messiah's execution was not a sign of defeat, but of fulfilling Scriptures.
WHAT IS BEING DEBATED: To be forgiven by God, @civic does not need to believe that Jesus was punished by God in our behalf. This is not how God's mercy works.
THE MISSED OPPORTUNITY: In quoting Isaiah, Jesus could have leveraged on the situation to teach that, as a condition to be forgiven, we should believe that the Messiah would take the punishment we deserve. But Jesus didn't do it. Why would He miss the opportunity, if PSA is central to salvation?
The gospels present Jesus going to the synagogue and reading from the Book of Isaiah, and then addressing people at the synagogue to explain PSA. But instead, Jesus presented his mission in non-PSA terms.
He went to Nazareth, where he had been brought up, and on the Sabbath day he went into the synagogue, as was his custom. He stood up to read, and the scroll of the prophet Isaiah was handed to him. Unrolling it, he found the place where it is written:
“The Spirit of the Lord is on me,
because he has anointed me
to proclaim good news to the poor.
He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners
and recovery of sight for the blind,
to set the oppressed free,
to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favor.”
Then he rolled up the scroll, gave it back to the attendant and sat down. The eyes of everyone in the synagogue were fastened on him. He began by saying to them, “Today this scripture is fulfilled in your hearing.”
civic
Active Member
Amen
Dizerner
Active Member
Even disregarding his days as a Calvinist, I have seen him be pretty nasty, and to me personally at times.
He has improved overall though.
Pancho Frijoles
Active Member
Well, our friend @Dizerner has said a similar thing: "It doesn't matter what you think / what I think. What matters is what the Bible says".
I invite you both to reflect:
If we are not concerned about the opinion of others, what's the point of participating in the Forum? We could close the Forum and stick to reading Scriptures by our own. Do you agree?
Nobody here is the spokesman or spokeswoman of God. We are not Christ.
We speak on behalf on ourselves. We speak what we honestly understand from what we read and see and think.
Dizerner
Active Member
Sadly, some people refuse to believe what Scripture says, so we must take Scripture to them.
However, there does indeed come a time when we are to wipe the dust off of our feet.
And whoever will not receive you nor hear your words, when you depart from that house or city, shake off the dust from your feet.
Assuredly, I say to you, it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment than for that city!
(Matt. 10:14-15 NKJ)
synergy
Active Member
The LXX text is much older, almost 1000 years older, than the MT text.
Dizerner
Active Member
That is incorrect.
The earliest dated Greek OT book is ~ 300 AD.
The earliest dated Hebrew OT book is ~ 200 BC.
That is a difference of 500 years between the dates of these manuscripts.
Pancho Frijoles
Active Member
I see your point. Has that time come?
Dizerner
Active Member
I'm deeply saddened that I fear it has come.
If only I could force people to make the right decision.
