Open Debate on the "Eternal Sonship vs Incarnate Sonship which is biblical?"

[FreeInChrist]

No he was not named Jesus then. All bible evidence points to Michael.

Oy veh !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Look Forrest.....

Between the JW and the LDS I dont know which has confounded the truth of our Savior worse.

Jehovah's Witnesses believe that Jesus is Michael the archangel based on their interpretation of certain Bible verses, particularly in Daniel and 1 Thessalonians, which they argue suggest that Michael is a title for Jesus before and after his earthly life. They assert that Michael is the only archangel and that Jesus shares this identity, viewing him as a created being who serves God's purpose.
from the Southern Nazarene University

Yes, Mormons believe that Jesus was known as Michael, the archangel, before his incarnation as Jesus Christ. In their theology, Michael is considered to be the same person as Adam, who became the first man on Earth.
from the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

I just have to ask.... Did you Vote for Mitt Romney since his beliefs are similar to yours?

However.... concerning the Word....

The JW says
Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1962682

"The Word"—Who Is He? According to John - Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY​

Part 1 "The Word"—Who Is He? According to John 1, 2. In his life account of Jesus Christ, whom does John first introduce to us, and so what do readers naturally want to know? "IN THE beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

OR

https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/502016228

see the link for this one.



Mormons believe that "the Word" refers to Jesus Christ, as described in the Bible and the Book of Mormon, which teaches that He is the divine Son of God and central to God's plan for humanity. They view both the Bible and the Book of Mormon as sacred scriptures that testify of Christ and His teachings.

 

[synergy]

Intro:

This is a debate that anyone can join into so long as you KEEP IT ON TOPIC.

Specifically posted in this forum due to the fact that it is the bible that is at the heart of both beliefs and it is good to get it sides defined.

The sides being where you come down on Eternal Sonship vs Incarnate Sonship ?

Prologue: of sorts....

The following cut and pastes came from The member Comments of the current limited debate "The Deity of Jesus Christ , True or False" and has been suggested again by @Red Baker.

Copy starts now to bring all up to date........................................

@Red Baker
@FreeInChrist

I was rushing my self ~meant to write along, not alone!

Save time and make it simple: Eternal Sonship vss Incarnate Sonship which is biblical? I'll be on the Incarnate Sonship side, and maybe @dwight92070 can be with me, since what I have read from some of his posit, he seems to be an incarnate believer, even if he does not call himself that.

Or, better yet, just start a thread on this subject, since there are Christians on both side of this subject and some have never even considered the other side and all of its ramifications.

@FreeInChrist

Ill take it under advisement and let you know.

Or better yet.....

Anyone reading this in any way interested in either side of this?

@360watt


I would also be on the Jesus always being God side. Pre existent as the Son. Son as in 'image ' 'expression ' rather than 'born out of'. But this may be a bit too technical of a debate. I can try though.

Red
@360watt

Brother, the good thing is this: there are believers on both side, one just not yet educated on the Sonship doctrine.

I was first taught the eternal Sonship position, but soon found that it has some serious hole in its position. Many good men that I have high regard for taught the eternal Sonship position. But, we can not follow man, but the scriptures.

I do not know all that Michael Servetus believe in his strong disagreement with John Calvin, that cost him his life. but it was over this very issue, to what degree we shall never know since Servetus' works were burned with him. But histroy tell us his last words were these:

AI Overview

Michael Servetus's last words, uttered as he was being burned at the stake in 1553, were, "Jesus, Son of the Eternal God, have mercy on me". These words are considered a reflection of his anti-Trinitarian views, as he emphasized Jesus' identity as the "Son of the Eternal God" rather than "eternal Son of God".

Red
One more thought.

John Calvin did not have Servetus burned, because of his understanding, the men of Geneva did. Calvin labored to get him to changed his understanding but refused to do so. Michael Servetus went to Geneva to confront Calvin, which was not wise on his part. I have read some things where Calvin and him disagree but only from Calvin's writings, so, who knows, I would have love to hear exactly what Michael Servetus did truly believe, but his confession sounded very good, so who knows.

@Eternally Grateful

I would be curious to understand how someone who does not believe in the eternal essence of the son, can trust in the cross for salvation. and be satisfied with this.

If Jesus is mere man. How could he pay for all of our sin?

@Red Baker


The Eternal Sonship is a dogma that is discredited logically by self contradiction. To contend that Jesus was eternally begotten is a manifest contradiction of term. We ask: can an object begin and not begun? No. The saying within itself is most absurd. Why do not people consider this, and understand it? Acts 28:25-27 is the answer.

Please consider carefully: Eternity is that which has no beginning, nor stands in reference to time~Son supposes time, generation, and father; time is also antedent to such generation~therefore, the conjunction of the two terms: Son and eternity~is absolutely impossible as they imply different and opposite ideal. Words must have meaning, or else, how can we communicate with each other on a level where we can understand each other? I understand eternity and I also understand the word son, and so do my readers, and we should know how to use each word properly, without confusing the meaning of either.

You said: "How someone who does not believe in the eternal essence of the son, can trust in the cross for salvation. and be satisfied with this. If Jesus is mere man. How could he pay for all of our sin?"

By the very fact God was his Father, being the very express image of who God is, more than qualify him to be the very person for God to laid help upon to secure the salvation of his elect.

@Eternally-Grateful

Begotten is his humanity..,

I ask again

How can you trust a God who punishes a mere man for your salvation. And not the eternal God

Scripture said it is through Jesus all things were created.

It calls him God

Jesus said before abraham came into existence. he always existed (he is eternal)

I mean I do not get it.

@Red Baker

Later, I have meeting. I have explained this at length a few times over, but will be happy to do so again Late this afternoon ~ EST.

@FreeInChrist


You say your beliefs are grounded in the bible....

I will repeat from before
Col 1: 15
He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
Col 1:16
For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities— all things have been created through Him and for Him.

Irrefutable proof that Jesus was before creation. Before any creation, even of the angels as Col 1:15 reads
Now... let us move on tyo what it says elsewhere in the Holy Scriptures and why.
In eternity past
Matthew 11:27: “All these things have been given to me by my Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father and anyone to whom the Son of Man decides to reveal him.”


The bottom line is that the Greek present tense is timeless and supports the notion that the Father and Son knew each other intimately for eternity, in the past, present and future—forever. Jesus did not become the Son at his birth or baptism
check out ~ (Matthew: Zondervan Exegetical Commentary on the New Testament [Zondervan, 2010], p. 440).

Back to John ever so briefly:

John 1: 1-2 states that God and the Word existed before creation:

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 He was in the beginning with God.

This verse further clarifies the identity of God and the Word ~ they ARE Father and Son, who came from the Father in heaven

John 1:14 states ~ And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.

then

John 17:5 states ~ “Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.

Right here, for no one to miss... Jesus is saying with the glory which I had with You before the world was.

Jesus is stating to the Father they were together before the world was.
If this is not convincing you yet.... answer this

So how does Jesus have the status of being the Word, and how does God have the status of being God before the world existed but do not have the status of the Father and Son before creation?
How do you understand John 5:26? “For just as the Father has life in Himself, even so He gave to the Son also to have life in Himself;
Do you see this gift cannot be temporary because the Father also has life in himself eternally. Therefore the Son also has life in himself eternally–just as the Father has this.
How about John 17:24? “Father, I desire that they also, whom You have given Me, be with Me where I am, so that they may see My glory which You have given Me, for You loved Me before the foundation of the world.
Can you not understand this is the Son talking to his Father about when they were before the foundation of the world.
John 1:18 says: No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.
First note the further proof of Jesus being God here. Plus Jesus more fully reveals their status and nature of Father and Son...beyond God and Word. Therefore the Father was in heaven with his Son before the incarnation and birth.
John 8:38. “I speak the things which I have seen with My Father; therefore you also do the things which you heard from your father.” The point is they were in close relationship as we have seen in John 1:1-2, 14 and 17:5. This relationship in the Father’s presence happened before the incarnation. To be the Father, he had to have at least one son in his presence. That Son is Jesus.
@FreeInChrist

I would welcome you, but at the same time I will ask @civic or @Administrator if they can mopve this from where Red said he wanted a debate into its own thread... not necessarily a debate opne but could be.... so comments from that debate dont
bump into these.

I already answered one to Red... so basically in my mind it is on... no matter where.

So come on in, the water is fine

@Administrator


You can setup whatever you like and it's fine with me. Let me know if you need any help.

@Red Baker

In the morning, I will answer ~ no problem.

@civic

I’m willing to defend the eternal Son side

@Red Baker


In his Deity AS GOD, he created all things. No problem, by separating Jesus' complex nature.

You said: "irrefutable proof that Jesus was before creation."

Jesus as the Son of God was conceived and born around two thousand years ago, we have the record of his birth recorded for us in Luke's gospel. God had no Son until then, only in his eternal purposes did he purpose to have a Son.

That is not scriptural but someone's opinion with no proof other than the Greek said so, and that does not count. I have more than once explain the meaning of Son and Father relationship to each other. This teaching destroys Jesus' Deity as God

It does not said anything close to that. John is simply stating the the Word was God without any qualifications. I can and will come back later and address John 1:1 in depth. I'm heading back to bed, I could not sleep so I got up, but now very shortly I'm heading.

Jesus was the God of Genesis 1:1, so yes in his Divine nature he was God. Even while on earth, he was IN HEAVEN as far as being God manifest in the flesh!
“And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.”

Jesus was NOT the Word in the beginning, God was the Word, Jesus was the Son of God born in time.

One more time:

The Eternal Sonship is a dogma that is discredited logically by self contradiction. To contend that Jesus was eternally begotten is a manifest contradiction of term. We ask: can an object begin and not begun? No. The saying within itself is most absurd. Why do not people consider this, and understand it? Acts 28:25-27 is the answer.

Please consider carefully: Eternity is that which has no beginning, nor stands in reference to time ~ Son supposes time, generation, and father; time is also antedent to such generation ~ therefore, the conjunction of the two terms: Son and eternity ~ is absolutely impossible as they imply different and opposite ideal. Words must have meaning, or else, how can we communicate with each other on a level where we can understand each other? I understand eternity and I also understand the word son, and so do my readers, and we should know how to use each word properly, without confusing the meaning of either.

I'm going to bed..I'll pick up here later. It is past 2:00 am

OKAY PEOPLE... LET THE GAMES BEGIN

AND KEEP IT ON TOPICE, PLEASE........................................................ IF NOT I ASK ADMIN TO DELETE THOSE POSTS.

I'm late to this discussion but here are my two cents. Jesus first and foremost is the Eternal Son of God by nature but secondarily he is the Incarnational Son of God in His messianic mission, not one to the exclusion of the other.

John 1:18 calls Jesus “the only-begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father”, clearly implying Eternal Sonship for Jesus. Hebrews 1:2–3 says the Son is the One through whom the ages were made, meaning He was already “Son” before creation, not merely after the incarnation.

On the other hand, Luke 1:35 and Psalm 2:7 show a real incarnational and messianic sonship expressed in history. Jesus is “called the Son of God” because of the Spirit’s conception and He is “begotten” in His royal enthronement, but these temporal declarations never replace His preexistent identity as the Eternal Son of God. Therefore, Jesus is eternally the Son by nature and incarnationally the Son in His messianic mission, not one to the exclusion of the other.

 

[Keiw1]

Oy veh !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Look Forrest.....

Between the JW and the LDS I dont know which has confounded the truth of our Savior worse.

Jehovah's Witnesses believe that Jesus is Michael the archangel based on their interpretation of certain Bible verses, particularly in Daniel and 1 Thessalonians, which they argue suggest that Michael is a title for Jesus before and after his earthly life. They assert that Michael is the only archangel and that Jesus shares this identity, viewing him as a created being who serves God's purpose.
from the Southern Nazarene University

Yes, Mormons believe that Jesus was known as Michael, the archangel, before his incarnation as Jesus Christ. In their theology, Michael is considered to be the same person as Adam, who became the first man on Earth.
from the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

I just have to ask.... Did you Vote for Mitt Romney since his beliefs are similar to yours?

However.... concerning the Word....

The JW says
Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1962682

"The Word"—Who Is He? According to John - Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY​

Part 1 "The Word"—Who Is He? According to John 1, 2. In his life account of Jesus Christ, whom does John first introduce to us, and so what do readers naturally want to know? "IN THE beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

OR

https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/502016228

see the link for this one.



Mormons believe that "the Word" refers to Jesus Christ, as described in the Bible and the Book of Mormon, which teaches that He is the divine Son of God and central to God's plan for humanity. They view both the Bible and the Book of Mormon as sacred scriptures that testify of Christ and His teachings.

Your JW link is from a different translation. Fact has been proven, a god is correct to the Word at John 1:1. Greek scholars have translated, a god at John 1:1 in their translations long before the New world translation was translated. Those translations rejected by the trinity based religions. ALL can look John 1:1 and 2 Cor 4:4 up in Greek-Both the Word and satan are called the same Greek word= god, while the true living God is called another Greek word at both spots. ( a god) is correct translating.
Small g god means- has godlike qualities.

 

[FreeInChrist]

Your JW link is from a different translation. Fact has been proven, a god is correct to the Word at John 1:1. Greek scholars have translated, a god at John 1:1 in their translations long before the New world translation was translated. Those translations rejected by the trinity based religions. ALL can look John 1:1 and 2 Cor 4:4 up in Greek-Both the Word and satan are called the same Greek word= god, while the true living God is called another Greek word at both spots. ( a god) is correct translating.
Small g god means- has godlike qualities.

Fact has proven you are wrong.

I posted why above, I will not again .

But you are wrong.

 

[civic]

I'm late to this discussion but here are my two cents. Jesus first and foremost is the Eternal Son of God by nature but secondarily he is the Incarnational Son of God in His messianic mission, not one to the exclusion of the other.

John 1:18 calls Jesus “the only-begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father”, clearly implying Eternal Sonship for Jesus. Hebrews 1:2–3 says the Son is the One through whom the ages were made, meaning He was already “Son” before creation, not merely after the incarnation.

On the other hand, Luke 1:35 and Psalm 2:7 show a real incarnational and messianic sonship expressed in history. Jesus is “called the Son of God” because of the Spirit’s conception and He is “begotten” in His royal enthronement, but these temporal declarations never replace His preexistent identity as the Eternal Son of God. Therefore, Jesus is eternally the Son by nature and incarnationally the Son in His messianic mission, not one to the exclusion of the other.

ditto

 

[Keiw1]

Fact has proven you are wrong.

I posted why above, I will not again .

But you are wrong.

Jesus stresses to you 4 x in a single paragraph that he has a God-Rev 3:12--Why won't you believe him?

 

[FreeInChrist]

Jesus stresses to you 4 x in a single paragraph that he has a God-Rev 3:12--Why won't you believe him?

Without wasting scripture on you believe this.

Yes, the risen Jesus calls the Father ‘my God’ ..... and that is PERFECT proof that He is God in human flesh, not proof that He is a creature.

The resurrected Jesus still has a real human nature forever ..... that’s why He can say ‘my God’ exactly like we do ..... while the Father calls Him ‘O God’ to His face (Hebrews 1:8). No created being in heaven is ever spoken of that way.”

So Revelation 3:12 is not Jesus “correcting” people who think He is God .....it is Jesus gloriously displaying the mystery of the incarnation: the eternal Son who is fully God now lives forever as a real man and can joyfully call the Father “my God” without ever stopping being God Himself.

 

[Keiw1]

Without wasting scripture on you believe this.

Yes, the risen Jesus calls the Father ‘my God’ ..... and that is PERFECT proof that He is God in human flesh, not proof that He is a creature.

The resurrected Jesus still has a real human nature forever ..... that’s why He can say ‘my God’ exactly like we do ..... while the Father calls Him ‘O God’ to His face (Hebrews 1:8). No created being in heaven is ever spoken of that way.”

So Revelation 3:12 is not Jesus “correcting” people who think He is God .....it is Jesus gloriously displaying the mystery of the incarnation: the eternal Son who is fully God now lives forever as a real man and can joyfully call the Father “my God” without ever stopping being God Himself.

No God did not call him o God--Catholicism translated that in=error. Heb 1:4 is proof==(( = to the angels except that God gave him the name that made better than them.

 

[FreeInChrist]

No God did not call him o God--Catholicism translated that in=error. Heb 1:4 is proof==(( = to the angels except that God gave him the name that made better than them.

What about the Jews?

The LXX reads.

1:4having become so much better than the angels, he has inherited a name as much more diverse from them.

And that ain't no Catholic Translation.

 

[Keiw1]

What about the Jews?

The LXX reads.

1:4having become so much better than the angels, he has inherited a name as much more diverse from them.

And that ain't no Catholic Translation.

Yes--Having become better than the angels--That means prior to getting that name from God he was equal to the angels. Thus could not be God.
Psalm 45:7 backs that truth up-That is why, God, your God anointed you with the oil of exultation, more than your companions( angels)

 

[FreeInChrist]

Yes--Having become better than the angels--That means prior to getting that name from God he was equal to the angels. Thus could not be God.
Psalm 45:7 backs that truth up-That is why, God, your God anointed you with the oil of exultation, more than your companions( angels)

Let's look at this a little more closely.

Your beliefs that have been taught to you are suggesting that Jesus must have been equal to angels before his exaltation, and thus not divine, with Psalm 45:7 (quoted in Hebrews 1:9) reinforcing that by portraying him as anointed above "companions" interpreted strictly as angels. Is that correct?

The [problem is this overlooks the broader context of Hebrews 1, which emphatically affirms Jesus' eternal deity and superiority to angels in his divine nature, while the "becoming" language points to his redemptive work in history rather than a change in essence.

Why I counter this is based on the scriptural text and its theological implications:

First...

the verse states that "having become so much better than the angels, he has inherited a name as much more diverse from them."
(Septuagint LXX) The key word became ... ( "or having become) does not imply Jesus was ontologically equal OR inferior to angels beforehand and then upgraded to divinity. Actually it refers to a historical progression tied to His incarnation, humiliation and exaltation.

In his pre-incarnate state, Jesus—the eternal Son—was always superior to angels as the Creator who made them (Hebrews 1:2, 10; cf. Colossians 1:16). But in the incarnation, he voluntarily humbled himself, taking on human form and "for a little while" being made "lower than the angels" to suffer and die for humanity (Hebrews 2:9; Philippians 2:6-8). This temporary lowering was for the purpose of redemption.

The "becoming superior" happened at his resurrection and ascension, when he was publicly exalted and enthroned at God's right hand (Hebrews 1:3, 13; Acts 2:33-36). At that point, his superior name ("Son" in a unique, divine sense) was fully manifested in power, subjecting all things—including angels—to him (1 Peter 3:22). This isn't about gaining new divinity but about the triumphant revelation of his eternal status through his victory over sin and death.

If Jesus were merely an angel (like Michael, as some claim), the entire chapter's contrast would collapse, since Hebrews repeatedly asks rhetorical questions like "To which of the angels did God ever say..." (Hebrews 1:5, 13), implying none, because Jesus is in a categorically different class as the divine Son.

2. Psalm 45: 6-7 ( which is quoted in Heb 1:8-9) reads: "Your throne , O God, is forever and ever... Therefore God, your God , has annointed you with the oil of gladness beyond your companions." This is applied directly to the Son in Hebrews, calling him "O God" (Hebrews 1:8)~ a clear affirmation of his deity. The Father addresses the Son as God, whose throne is eternal, which no angel could claim (Hebrews 1:7 describes angels as mere "servants" and "winds").

The "companions" (or "partners") aren't necessarily angels; in the original Psalm 45 context, it's a royal wedding psalm for an earthly king, where companions likely refer to fellow humans, nobles, or other rulers. In Hebrews' application to Christ, it could broadly include angels, believers, or creation~but the point is his exaltation above them through anointing, not that he started as their equal. This anointing highlights his mediatorial role as the God-man, where the Father exalts him for his obedience (Philippians 2:9-11), but it doesn't negate his pre-existent divinity.

Far from proving Jesus isn't God, this passage proves he is: He's called "God" with an eternal throne, while having a "God" (the Father) who anoints him—reflecting the distinction within the Trinity, not subordination in essence.

3. If you want further proof.... which I am certain you wont read...... here is some broader evidence from Hebrews 1 for Jesus' Deity and Superiority........................................

Worship: Angels are commanded to worship him (Hebrews 1:6; cf. Deuteronomy 32:43), an act reserved for God alone (Revelation 19:10; 22:9). If Jesus were just an exalted angel, this would be idolatry.

Creation: Jesus is the agent of creation ("through whom [God] created the world" – Hebrews 1:2; "You, Lord, laid the foundation of the earth" – Hebrews 1:10, quoting Psalm 102:25). Angels were created beings who witnessed this (Job 38:4-7), not co-creators.

Eternity and Immutability: Unlike angels, Jesus is unchanging and eternal ("You are the same, and your years will have no end" – Hebrews 1:12; cf. Psalm 102:26-27).

Seat of Honor: He's invited to sit at God's right hand until enemies are subdued (Hebrews 1:13; Psalm 110:1)—a position never offered to angels.

ERGO......These attributes (summarized as sharing God's honors, names, deeds, attributes, and seat) place Jesus far above angels from eternity, with the "becoming" simply marking the historical vindication of that superiority through the cross and resurrection

In summary, your argument misreads "became" as a change in nature rather than a redemptive milestone, and ignores how Hebrews 1 repeatedly calls Jesus "God" and "Lord" while contrasting him with servant-angels.

You either ignore John 1: 1-3, 14 of proof of (Jesus as the eternal Word) and avoid a comment on Colossians 2:9 (fullness of deity in bodily form). These upholds the orthodox view that Jesus is fully God and fully man, eternally superior to angels in his divine essence.

 

[Keiw1]

Let's look at this a little more closely.

Your beliefs that have been taught to you are suggesting that Jesus must have been equal to angels before his exaltation, and thus not divine, with Psalm 45:7 (quoted in Hebrews 1:9) reinforcing that by portraying him as anointed above "companions" interpreted strictly as angels. Is that correct?

The [problem is this overlooks the broader context of Hebrews 1, which emphatically affirms Jesus' eternal deity and superiority to angels in his divine nature, while the "becoming" language points to his redemptive work in history rather than a change in essence.

Why I counter this is based on the scriptural text and its theological implications:

First...

the verse states that "having become so much better than the angels, he has inherited a name as much more diverse from them."
(Septuagint LXX) The key word became ... ( "or having become) does not imply Jesus was ontologically equal OR inferior to angels beforehand and then upgraded to divinity. Actually it refers to a historical progression tied to His incarnation, humiliation and exaltation.

In his pre-incarnate state, Jesus—the eternal Son—was always superior to angels as the Creator who made them (Hebrews 1:2, 10; cf. Colossians 1:16). But in the incarnation, he voluntarily humbled himself, taking on human form and "for a little while" being made "lower than the angels" to suffer and die for humanity (Hebrews 2:9; Philippians 2:6-8). This temporary lowering was for the purpose of redemption.

The "becoming superior" happened at his resurrection and ascension, when he was publicly exalted and enthroned at God's right hand (Hebrews 1:3, 13; Acts 2:33-36). At that point, his superior name ("Son" in a unique, divine sense) was fully manifested in power, subjecting all things—including angels—to him (1 Peter 3:22). This isn't about gaining new divinity but about the triumphant revelation of his eternal status through his victory over sin and death.

If Jesus were merely an angel (like Michael, as some claim), the entire chapter's contrast would collapse, since Hebrews repeatedly asks rhetorical questions like "To which of the angels did God ever say..." (Hebrews 1:5, 13), implying none, because Jesus is in a categorically different class as the divine Son.

2. Psalm 45: 6-7 ( which is quoted in Heb 1:8-9) reads: "Your throne , O God, is forever and ever... Therefore God, your God , has annointed you with the oil of gladness beyond your companions." This is applied directly to the Son in Hebrews, calling him "O God" (Hebrews 1:8)~ a clear affirmation of his deity. The Father addresses the Son as God, whose throne is eternal, which no angel could claim (Hebrews 1:7 describes angels as mere "servants" and "winds").

The "companions" (or "partners") aren't necessarily angels; in the original Psalm 45 context, it's a royal wedding psalm for an earthly king, where companions likely refer to fellow humans, nobles, or other rulers. In Hebrews' application to Christ, it could broadly include angels, believers, or creation~but the point is his exaltation above them through anointing, not that he started as their equal. This anointing highlights his mediatorial role as the God-man, where the Father exalts him for his obedience (Philippians 2:9-11), but it doesn't negate his pre-existent divinity.

Far from proving Jesus isn't God, this passage proves he is: He's called "God" with an eternal throne, while having a "God" (the Father) who anoints him—reflecting the distinction within the Trinity, not subordination in essence.

3. If you want further proof.... which I am certain you wont read...... here is some broader evidence from Hebrews 1 for Jesus' Deity and Superiority........................................

Worship: Angels are commanded to worship him (Hebrews 1:6; cf. Deuteronomy 32:43), an act reserved for God alone (Revelation 19:10; 22:9). If Jesus were just an exalted angel, this would be idolatry.

Creation: Jesus is the agent of creation ("through whom [God] created the world" – Hebrews 1:2; "You, Lord, laid the foundation of the earth" – Hebrews 1:10, quoting Psalm 102:25). Angels were created beings who witnessed this (Job 38:4-7), not co-creators.

Eternity and Immutability: Unlike angels, Jesus is unchanging and eternal ("You are the same, and your years will have no end" – Hebrews 1:12; cf. Psalm 102:26-27).

Seat of Honor: He's invited to sit at God's right hand until enemies are subdued (Hebrews 1:13; Psalm 110:1)—a position never offered to angels.

ERGO......These attributes (summarized as sharing God's honors, names, deeds, attributes, and seat) place Jesus far above angels from eternity, with the "becoming" simply marking the historical vindication of that superiority through the cross and resurrection

In summary, your argument misreads "became" as a change in nature rather than a redemptive milestone, and ignores how Hebrews 1 repeatedly calls Jesus "God" and "Lord" while contrasting him with servant-angels.

You either ignore John 1: 1-3, 14 of proof of (Jesus as the eternal Word) and avoid a comment on Colossians 2:9 (fullness of deity in bodily form). These upholds the orthodox view that Jesus is fully God and fully man, eternally superior to angels in his divine essence.

Everything Jesus has, GOD gave to him. Otherwise he has 0. Same for all created beings.

 

[civic]

Everything Jesus has, GOD gave to him. Otherwise he has 0. Same for all created beings.

Except created beings cannot create. And we know He created all things and existed before all created things.

Next fallacy

 

[Keiw1]

Except created beings cannot create. And we know He created all things and existed before all created things.

Next fallacy

God created all things= THROUGH Jesus( John 1:3-Col 1:15-16)-He is Gods master worker.( Prov 8:30) That is the builder. His God and Father is the creator. The mortal Jesus is the one, with 0 doubt who was beside God during creating= Gods master worker. Not as a mortal, but as a created spirit being. Gods only begotten son( created direct-first and last)= Col 1:15-16) The FIRSTBORN of all creation.-- These are fact.

 

[civic]

God created all things= THROUGH Jesus( John 1:3-Col 1:15-16)-He is Gods master worker.( Prov 8:30) That is the builder. His God and Father is the creator. The mortal Jesus is the one, with 0 doubt who was beside God during creating= Gods master worker. Not as a mortal, but as a created spirit being. Gods only begotten son( created direct-first and last)= Col 1:15-16) The FIRSTBORN of all creation.-- These are fact.

like I said something created cannot create thats not only impossible, but unbiblical, illogical, an oxymoron and contradicts the LNC- law of non contradiction.

 

[FreeInChrist]

God created all things= THROUGH Jesus( John 1:3-Col 1:15-16)-He is Gods master worker.( Prov 8:30) That is the builder. His God and Father is the creator. The mortal Jesus is the one, with 0 doubt who was beside God during creating= Gods master worker. Not as a mortal, but as a created spirit being. Gods only begotten son( created direct-first and last)= Col 1:15-16) The FIRSTBORN of all creation.-- These are fact.

The mortal Jesus is the one, with 0 doubt who was beside God during creating= Gods master worker. Not as a mortal, but as a created spirit being.

Give me a break... There was nothing create about the Word... and it was the Word who became Jesus.... The word existed from eternity past with the Father.

Jesus cannot be both the Creator of ‘all things’ with no exceptions (John 1:3; Col 1:16–17) and simultaneously one of the ‘all things’ He created ..... that’s logically and biblically impossible; He is the eternal God, not Jehovah’s first created ‘master worker.’

Are you confusing The Word/Jesus being created with Proverbs 8: 22-30 of the NWT?

Not only is the wording there pure poppycock................................

The passage is a personification of wisdom (Lady Wisdom), a common poetic device in Hebrew literature (see Prov 1:20–33; 9:1–6). It is not about a pre-human Jesus.

The New Testament never once applies Proverbs 8 to Christ. Instead, it applies passages like Psalm 102:25–27 and Isaiah 44:24 to Him (see Hebrews 1:10–12).

And most importantly..................................
Early church fathers who did link Proverbs 8 to Christ (e.g., Justin, Irenaeus) still affirmed His eternal generation, not creation.

 

[Keiw1]

like I said something created cannot create thats not only impossible, but unbiblical, illogical, an oxymoron and contradicts the LNC- law of non contradiction.

Jesus didn't create-Gen 1:27=HE created---- not WE created. HE = Jesus' God and Father YHVH(Jehovah)-- Jesus is the builder. God created and designed. Its your religions false reasoning misleading you into thinking the US at Gen 1:26 created, but verse 27 is 100% clear-HE created. I explained how the bible says it worked already with Gods master worker. Jehovah and his master worker( Jesus) is the US at Gen 1:26.

 

[Keiw1]

The mortal Jesus is the one, with 0 doubt who was beside God during creating= Gods master worker. Not as a mortal, but as a created spirit being.

Give me a break... There was nothing create about the Word... and it was the Word who became Jesus.... The word existed from eternity past with the Father.

Jesus cannot be both the Creator of ‘all things’ with no exceptions (John 1:3; Col 1:16–17) and simultaneously one of the ‘all things’ He created ..... that’s logically and biblically impossible; He is the eternal God, not Jehovah’s first created ‘master worker.’

Are you confusing The Word/Jesus being created with Proverbs 8: 22-30 of the NWT?

Not only is the wording there pure poppycock................................

The passage is a personification of wisdom (Lady Wisdom), a common poetic device in Hebrew literature (see Prov 1:20–33; 9:1–6). It is not about a pre-human Jesus.

The New Testament never once applies Proverbs 8 to Christ. Instead, it applies passages like Psalm 102:25–27 and Isaiah 44:24 to Him (see Hebrews 1:10–12).

And most importantly..................................
Early church fathers who did link Proverbs 8 to Christ (e.g., Justin, Irenaeus) still affirmed His eternal generation, not creation.

Your religion says Jesus lived all along with the Father. Jesus speaking at Prov 8:22 says he was created FIRST. The Hebrew word for-possessed means created in Hebrew language.=The firstborn of all creation( Col 1:15-16)---Its the 100% real reason Jesus and the bible writers teach Jesus has a God= his Father. John 20:17-Rev 3:12))) 2Cor 1:3-Eph 1:3-Col 1:3--1Pet 1:3---Psalm 45:7 as well.-- At Psalm 45:7 it mentions companions(partners)= angels. As Heb 1:4 attests--If not given the name( Jesus) from God he was equal to the angels, that name made him better than them.

 

[FreeInChrist]

Your religion says Jesus lived all along with the Father. Jesus speaking at Prov 8:22 says he was created FIRST. The Hebrew word for-possessed means created in Hebrew language.=The firstborn of all creation( Col 1:15-16)---Its the 100% real reason Jesus and the bible writers teach Jesus has a God= his Father. John 20:17-Rev 3:12))) 2Cor 1:3-Eph 1:3-Col 1:3--1Pet 1:3---Psalm 45:7 as well.-- At Psalm 45:7 it mentions companions(partners)= angels. As Heb 1:4 attests--If not given the name( Jesus) from God he was equal to the angels, that name made him better than them.

@Tothalordbeallglory ... If you dont read this whole thing... scroll down to the dangers to Ecumenical gathering....

@Keiw1

Yes, indeed..... my Heavenly Father had thew Word who became incarnate living along side of Him from eternity past. Praise the Lord.

Your religion has to scramble to make what you believe seem plausible.

Every time I see someone trying to tie Jesus into the female Wisdom makes me wonder what in the world they are thinking... for there is nothing feminine about Jesus yet Wisdom, according to the poets and scribes embodies femineity.

Does this idea not sound strange knowing Wisdom (Hebrew ḥokhmah, Greek sophia) is grammatically feminine, speaks as a woman, and is personified as “Lady Wisdom.”? Do you not wonder how the early Christians (and most Christians ever since) feel comfortable saying, “This is actually talking about Jesus, who is a man”?

Before I go on.... A bit of trivia for you.. Back in the 1990's there was a conference held for not just Presbyterians but othe protestant groups.... It was a Re-Imagining Group. There is a whole lot of this online if you are curious... and seeing that you are using Prov 8:22 you should be..... (BTW... they still are working though more quietly now.

Some links you can readily access.

Re-Imagining - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Re-Imagining was a Minneapolis interfaith conference of clergy, laypeople, and feminist theologians in 1993 that stirred controversy in U.S. Mainline Protestant denominations,ultimately resulting in the firing of the highest ranking woman in the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) Re-Imagining: A Global Theological Conference By Women: For Men and Women, grew out of a U.S.A. Mainline Protestant response to the World Council of Churches' Ecumenical Decade: Churches in Solidarity with Women 1988–1998. Participants met at the Minneapolis Convention Center during November 4 through 7, 1993.

It brought together 2,200 people, one third of them clergy, and most of them women. 83 men registered. Attendees represented 16 denominations, 27 countries, and 49 states.

Pay careful attention to what is RED in this teaser

Fallout Escalates over ‘Goddess’ Sophia Worship - Christianity Today

Ecumenical conferences often come and go with little notice.But the fallout from last fall’s “Re-Imagining” event has continued to escalate as more people

www.christianitytoday.com

Ecumenical conferences often come and go with little notice.

But the fallout from last fall’s “Re-Imagining” event has continued to escalate as more people have discovered the depth of its unorthodox feminist worship and teaching.

During one session, a controversial incantation was used, including the words: “Our maker, Sophia, we are women in your image, with the hot blood of our wombs we give form to new life … with nectar between our thighs we invite a lover … with our warm body fluids we remind the world of its pleasures and sensations.”

Sophia: Goddess of Wisdom & God's Bride

Sophia: Goddess of Wisdom & God’s Wife Sophia Prayers & Gallery By Katia Romanoff (with contributions by young Mark Raines) Who is Sophia? Literally she is Wisdom, because the Greek word Sophia means “wisdom” in English. More than that, Sophia is the Wisdom of Deity. She has been revered as the...

northernway.org

This is among the worst and they all hail back to Proverbs 8-9... They are so desperate to include a woman into the divinity.

3. About
Sophia, Hidden Goddess of the West by Brother Leonard

Sophia:
Exile & Return Excerpt: Sophia personifies wisdom, an ancient tradition concerned with integrity in the marketplace, politics, and royal court. Because the teachings were rooted in life instead of doctrine, Sophia became problematical and excluded from the religious formulations of monotheism. This manuscript is about exile–Sophia’s and our own. I compare Sophia’s exile from mainstream religion to the alienation suffered by modern individuals who experience loss, betrayal, and abandonment. What is exiled in today’s dysfunctional paradigm is the vital soul, the genius or daemon. When we pay attention to it by taking our life seriously–as a mode of knowledge–we awaken its fire. The vital expresses the integrity and intelligence of the life force, whose awakening turns exile into home–revealing Sophia to be not divine but the source of divine images–the human psyche. While Sophia has been interpreted as divine, goddess or psychological image, she is examined here from several unique perspectives. First, Sophia is developed from the context of modern life and real people, but in conversation with the historical and mythological. Second, the dark side is confronted through analysis of Sophia’s “Other” faces, Lilith and Hecate, locating it as the source of individual power and knowledge. Third, it provides modern women with an image of female power that is not based solely on reproduction and mothering but on another aspect of the feminine archetype rarely discussed–the intelligence and cosmic power of the life force. Finally, it introduces the “path of crumbs” which encourages women to direct their own life through recognition of the guidance present in circumstances.

And you need to read, and reread this following Sophia Creed.

The Creed of the Holy Spirit

(by Unknown author. Please email if you know who wrote this!)

I believe in the Blessed Sophia.

I believe that she is Our Heavenly Father’s Beloved Daughter.

I believe our souls dwelled with them in the Beginning, in harmony and love.

I believe that Sophia is the Divine Daughter.

That She lives in all women, and her strength and grace inspires all;

And she has sinned, learnt and is now strong and free.

I believe that Sophia is the Great Mother.

She is the Eema, the image of the hight of our strength;

And she has tutored me along Her Holy Path.

I believe that Sophia is the Holy Soul.

The Pneuma, the inner Crone of death and understanding within me;

And that She will bring completion in my waning days.

I believe that Sophia is the Spirit of God.

She is the Celestial Mother, and unites the Father and Child;

And She has given us knowledge of Their nurturing ways.

I believe in the Aeons, the Spirits, the gods of the Unknown God.

They are ruled by Sophia, they are Her children;

They all come from the Mother and to Her they shall return.

I believe in Reincarnation.

Her soul allows us to cycle throughout the prinsonhosue of matter;

Until we achieve the Liberation of the Light of Her Unknown Source.

I live in duty to restore honour to The Holy Spirit.

In prayer and reverence of all Her rituals;

From the masks of saints and goddesses, to restore honour to the True Queen.

The Hail Sophia

Hail Sophia, filled with Light, the Christ is with thee.

Blessed art thou among the Aeons and blessed is the liberator of thy Light, Jesus.

Holy Sophia, Mother of all Gods, pray to the Light for us thy children, now and in the hour of our death,

Amen.

I will post no more from this link......

I will say.... I do believe in my very soul that for anyone to try and tie that woman Wisdom... to Our Lord Jesus by anymeans
is nothing short of offering very heritical views.

I had more about what you wrote but as I was reminded as I was looking things up about Wisdom/Sophia
how dastardly horrendous things have come about by the biblical mention of that name in the Holy Scriptures...
AND NO... I do not feel that is inspired.....

Here... you might find this one educational.... I do not.....

Jesus Sophia in the Bible | Bible and Beyond Discussions

Gender bending and gender pluralism provide backdrops for understanding the intersections of Wisdom, Jesus, and Sophia.

earlychristiantexts.com

This Bible and Beyond Discussion looked at the figure of Jesus Sophia. A quick overview of the divine female figure Wisdom/Sophia in Proverbs, the Book of Wisdom, and Ecclesiasticus was followed by the figure of Jesus Sophia in Matthew, Luke, John, and I Corinthians. Overlaps of Jesus and Sophia in the Gospel of Thomas, the Gospel of Truth, and the Secret Revelation of John were examined. Gender bending, gender pluralism, and divine-human figures provided backdrops for understanding the intersections of Wisdom, Jesus, and Sophia in ancient literature and contemporary theology and spirituality. These three texts were helpful: Proverbs 8; Book of Wisdom (or, Wisdom of Solomon) chapters 10-12 ; and Ecclesiasticus (or Sirach) chapter 1.



This last one should be an eye opener and alert one that the name of Jesus should not be connected to the "Goddess Sophia or
the Goddess Wisdom.

It is correct that Jesus spoke of wisdom often.... but not the person... but as a divine attribute and a gift from God, characterized by the ability to make sound judgments and decisions based on knowledge, understanding, and moral discernment

Sophia

Channeled by Gillian MacBeth-Louthan​

I am the She-ness of All that is, I am Sophia. I am the breath of that which you have spoken. I am the breath that is and that is yet to be birthed.

I bring within my words and energies a fulfillment that comes not from the substance of earth, nor from the substance of self. I ask you to taste the sweetness that you are as you kiss the lips of God. I ask you to taste the sweetness that was destined to be your life before you chose the conflict. Come forth into the fullness of your power in this hour of light. Do not wait a fortnight; do not wait another day until the timing is correct in your perceptions. For in the scheme of universal knowledge and the schematics of universal light, there is but this moment. In this moment you need to fill yourself with all that you want to be. Do not talk of what you shall accomplish one day, but fulfill that accomplishment within your mind, within the pictures of your heart and the pictures of your word in this moment, this thought.

In the upcoming time, you will find that many words that you speak will change in enunciation, in meaning, and change in vibration. You will find that as you speak, a gentle hum is heard in your heart as it begins to vibrate with truth so fast that music is created. These are not heart palpitations but the sound of love that hums through the caverns of your being.

I am She that was whispered into existence by the mouth of God. I am sometimes seen as Shekinah, the holy breath, the Holy Spirit. I am feminine of nature, but not always depicted as such. I come forth with the vibration and the teachings of the ancient Magdalenes. You birth a New World on this day by believing. You birth a great white hope that lives so deeply in your cell memory that you have not yet seen it in your world. You birth on this day a completion as you spiral and dance around all layers and faces of your soul and of yourself finally landing in climax within the oceans of your being. I am that which is yet to be found within you. I am the sacred feminine that you seek but do not always see reflected in the mirror of your life. I am the sacred face of the feminine light of God and I come to heal you as I come to birth myself.

The essence of Sophia (Ma-RI) has lived by many names and each one of them you have donned as a costume in the masquerade of life. You came in this time holding an encoding that will be released in these upcoming times. It is that sacred number, that sacred sound, that sacred geometry and color of the Wild Woman untamed Goddess within you that you allowed to be birthed in fullness for me and through me.

It is time for you to celebrate everything about you for every one of you is a strand in the tapestry of my cloak of light. The doorway opens for you to see and to celebrate. Some days the celebration will be in a place of loneliness and other days it will be in a large beautiful group, but it matters not. Your life needs to be a celebration of who you want to be and who you know you are. Strip off the weather coatings that you wear as protection and allow your glorious beautiful self to be seen in the fullness of time. Do not be afraid of your emotions or your angers or your passions. Do not be afraid of your wild hair days.

If you would sound my sound in your heart, it will help you to heal for it comes as an elixir, as an amendment to all the rules of order that you were forced to follow from time beginning. Say my name softly to yourself Sophia Sophia Sophia. Does it not soothe the thorns of your being? For in that sound is a memory and in that memory you are very close to home.

I thank you for being who you are. You have never allowed others to break your spirit even though there were times when you teetered very close to that. Do not allow anyone to take of your heart. You can give it all that you want, but do not let others take your dreams or your desires. Give and give and give. That is the doorway to the greatest healing of all. Invite me into your day, into the morn, into the night. I will escort you into passageways that you have forgotten. Run bare-footed in the temples of your past. Allow me to escort you into all that you are for it is a place of completion that you come home to. I am Sophia as are you.

http://www.thequantumawakening.com/current_newsletter.htm for January 2005


SO IF YOU STILL HAVE A POINT TO MAKE... FIND A DIFFERENT SCRIPTURE(S) LEAVING HER OUT OF IT

​

​

 

[Keiw1]

@Tothalordbeallglory ... If you dont read this whole thing... scroll down to the dangers to Ecumenical gathering....

@Keiw1

Yes, indeed..... my Heavenly Father had thew Word who became incarnate living along side of Him from eternity past. Praise the Lord.

Your religion has to scramble to make what you believe seem plausible.

Every time I see someone trying to tie Jesus into the female Wisdom makes me wonder what in the world they are thinking... for there is nothing feminine about Jesus yet Wisdom, according to the poets and scribes embodies femineity.

Does this idea not sound strange knowing Wisdom (Hebrew ḥokhmah, Greek sophia) is grammatically feminine, speaks as a woman, and is personified as “Lady Wisdom.”? Do you not wonder how the early Christians (and most Christians ever since) feel comfortable saying, “This is actually talking about Jesus, who is a man”?

Before I go on.... A bit of trivia for you.. Back in the 1990's there was a conference held for not just Presbyterians but othe protestant groups.... It was a Re-Imagining Group. There is a whole lot of this online if you are curious... and seeing that you are using Prov 8:22 you should be..... (BTW... they still are working though more quietly now.

Some links you can readily access.

Re-Imagining - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Re-Imagining was a Minneapolis interfaith conference of clergy, laypeople, and feminist theologians in 1993 that stirred controversy in U.S. Mainline Protestant denominations,ultimately resulting in the firing of the highest ranking woman in the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) Re-Imagining: A Global Theological Conference By Women: For Men and Women, grew out of a U.S.A. Mainline Protestant response to the World Council of Churches' Ecumenical Decade: Churches in Solidarity with Women 1988–1998. Participants met at the Minneapolis Convention Center during November 4 through 7, 1993.

It brought together 2,200 people, one third of them clergy, and most of them women. 83 men registered. Attendees represented 16 denominations, 27 countries, and 49 states.

Pay careful attention to what is RED in this teaser

Fallout Escalates over ‘Goddess’ Sophia Worship - Christianity Today

Ecumenical conferences often come and go with little notice.But the fallout from last fall’s “Re-Imagining” event has continued to escalate as more people

www.christianitytoday.com

Ecumenical conferences often come and go with little notice.

But the fallout from last fall’s “Re-Imagining” event has continued to escalate as more people have discovered the depth of its unorthodox feminist worship and teaching.

During one session, a controversial incantation was used, including the words: “Our maker, Sophia, we are women in your image, with the hot blood of our wombs we give form to new life … with nectar between our thighs we invite a lover … with our warm body fluids we remind the world of its pleasures and sensations.”

Sophia: Goddess of Wisdom & God's Bride

Sophia: Goddess of Wisdom & God’s Wife Sophia Prayers & Gallery By Katia Romanoff (with contributions by young Mark Raines) Who is Sophia? Literally she is Wisdom, because the Greek word Sophia means “wisdom” in English. More than that, Sophia is the Wisdom of Deity. She has been revered as the...

northernway.org

This is among the worst and they all hail back to Proverbs 8-9... They are so desperate to include a woman into the divinity.

3. About
Sophia, Hidden Goddess of the West by Brother Leonard

Sophia:
Exile & Return Excerpt: Sophia personifies wisdom, an ancient tradition concerned with integrity in the marketplace, politics, and royal court. Because the teachings were rooted in life instead of doctrine, Sophia became problematical and excluded from the religious formulations of monotheism. This manuscript is about exile–Sophia’s and our own. I compare Sophia’s exile from mainstream religion to the alienation suffered by modern individuals who experience loss, betrayal, and abandonment. What is exiled in today’s dysfunctional paradigm is the vital soul, the genius or daemon. When we pay attention to it by taking our life seriously–as a mode of knowledge–we awaken its fire. The vital expresses the integrity and intelligence of the life force, whose awakening turns exile into home–revealing Sophia to be not divine but the source of divine images–the human psyche. While Sophia has been interpreted as divine, goddess or psychological image, she is examined here from several unique perspectives. First, Sophia is developed from the context of modern life and real people, but in conversation with the historical and mythological. Second, the dark side is confronted through analysis of Sophia’s “Other” faces, Lilith and Hecate, locating it as the source of individual power and knowledge. Third, it provides modern women with an image of female power that is not based solely on reproduction and mothering but on another aspect of the feminine archetype rarely discussed–the intelligence and cosmic power of the life force. Finally, it introduces the “path of crumbs” which encourages women to direct their own life through recognition of the guidance present in circumstances.

And you need to read, and reread this following Sophia Creed.

The Creed of the Holy Spirit

(by Unknown author. Please email if you know who wrote this!)

I believe in the Blessed Sophia.

I believe that she is Our Heavenly Father’s Beloved Daughter.

I believe our souls dwelled with them in the Beginning, in harmony and love.

I believe that Sophia is the Divine Daughter.

That She lives in all women, and her strength and grace inspires all;

And she has sinned, learnt and is now strong and free.

I believe that Sophia is the Great Mother.

She is the Eema, the image of the hight of our strength;

And she has tutored me along Her Holy Path.

I believe that Sophia is the Holy Soul.

The Pneuma, the inner Crone of death and understanding within me;

And that She will bring completion in my waning days.

I believe that Sophia is the Spirit of God.

She is the Celestial Mother, and unites the Father and Child;

And She has given us knowledge of Their nurturing ways.

I believe in the Aeons, the Spirits, the gods of the Unknown God.

They are ruled by Sophia, they are Her children;

They all come from the Mother and to Her they shall return.

I believe in Reincarnation.

Her soul allows us to cycle throughout the prinsonhosue of matter;

Until we achieve the Liberation of the Light of Her Unknown Source.

I live in duty to restore honour to The Holy Spirit.

In prayer and reverence of all Her rituals;

From the masks of saints and goddesses, to restore honour to the True Queen.

The Hail Sophia

Hail Sophia, filled with Light, the Christ is with thee.

Blessed art thou among the Aeons and blessed is the liberator of thy Light, Jesus.

Holy Sophia, Mother of all Gods, pray to the Light for us thy children, now and in the hour of our death,

Amen.

I will post no more from this link......

I will say.... I do believe in my very soul that for anyone to try and tie that woman Wisdom... to Our Lord Jesus by anymeans
is nothing short of offering very heritical views.

I had more about what you wrote but as I was reminded as I was looking things up about Wisdom/Sophia
how dastardly horrendous things have come about by the biblical mention of that name in the Holy Scriptures...
AND NO... I do not feel that is inspired.....

Here... you might find this one educational.... I do not.....

Jesus Sophia in the Bible | Bible and Beyond Discussions

Gender bending and gender pluralism provide backdrops for understanding the intersections of Wisdom, Jesus, and Sophia.

earlychristiantexts.com

This Bible and Beyond Discussion looked at the figure of Jesus Sophia. A quick overview of the divine female figure Wisdom/Sophia in Proverbs, the Book of Wisdom, and Ecclesiasticus was followed by the figure of Jesus Sophia in Matthew, Luke, John, and I Corinthians. Overlaps of Jesus and Sophia in the Gospel of Thomas, the Gospel of Truth, and the Secret Revelation of John were examined. Gender bending, gender pluralism, and divine-human figures provided backdrops for understanding the intersections of Wisdom, Jesus, and Sophia in ancient literature and contemporary theology and spirituality. These three texts were helpful: Proverbs 8; Book of Wisdom (or, Wisdom of Solomon) chapters 10-12 ; and Ecclesiasticus (or Sirach) chapter 1.



This last one should be an eye opener and alert one that the name of Jesus should not be connected to the "Goddess Sophia or
the Goddess Wisdom.

It is correct that Jesus spoke of wisdom often.... but not the person... but as a divine attribute and a gift from God, characterized by the ability to make sound judgments and decisions based on knowledge, understanding, and moral discernment

Sophia

Channeled by Gillian MacBeth-Louthan​

I am the She-ness of All that is, I am Sophia. I am the breath of that which you have spoken. I am the breath that is and that is yet to be birthed.

I bring within my words and energies a fulfillment that comes not from the substance of earth, nor from the substance of self. I ask you to taste the sweetness that you are as you kiss the lips of God. I ask you to taste the sweetness that was destined to be your life before you chose the conflict. Come forth into the fullness of your power in this hour of light. Do not wait a fortnight; do not wait another day until the timing is correct in your perceptions. For in the scheme of universal knowledge and the schematics of universal light, there is but this moment. In this moment you need to fill yourself with all that you want to be. Do not talk of what you shall accomplish one day, but fulfill that accomplishment within your mind, within the pictures of your heart and the pictures of your word in this moment, this thought.

In the upcoming time, you will find that many words that you speak will change in enunciation, in meaning, and change in vibration. You will find that as you speak, a gentle hum is heard in your heart as it begins to vibrate with truth so fast that music is created. These are not heart palpitations but the sound of love that hums through the caverns of your being.

I am She that was whispered into existence by the mouth of God. I am sometimes seen as Shekinah, the holy breath, the Holy Spirit. I am feminine of nature, but not always depicted as such. I come forth with the vibration and the teachings of the ancient Magdalenes. You birth a New World on this day by believing. You birth a great white hope that lives so deeply in your cell memory that you have not yet seen it in your world. You birth on this day a completion as you spiral and dance around all layers and faces of your soul and of yourself finally landing in climax within the oceans of your being. I am that which is yet to be found within you. I am the sacred feminine that you seek but do not always see reflected in the mirror of your life. I am the sacred face of the feminine light of God and I come to heal you as I come to birth myself.

The essence of Sophia (Ma-RI) has lived by many names and each one of them you have donned as a costume in the masquerade of life. You came in this time holding an encoding that will be released in these upcoming times. It is that sacred number, that sacred sound, that sacred geometry and color of the Wild Woman untamed Goddess within you that you allowed to be birthed in fullness for me and through me.

It is time for you to celebrate everything about you for every one of you is a strand in the tapestry of my cloak of light. The doorway opens for you to see and to celebrate. Some days the celebration will be in a place of loneliness and other days it will be in a large beautiful group, but it matters not. Your life needs to be a celebration of who you want to be and who you know you are. Strip off the weather coatings that you wear as protection and allow your glorious beautiful self to be seen in the fullness of time. Do not be afraid of your emotions or your angers or your passions. Do not be afraid of your wild hair days.

If you would sound my sound in your heart, it will help you to heal for it comes as an elixir, as an amendment to all the rules of order that you were forced to follow from time beginning. Say my name softly to yourself Sophia Sophia Sophia. Does it not soothe the thorns of your being? For in that sound is a memory and in that memory you are very close to home.

I thank you for being who you are. You have never allowed others to break your spirit even though there were times when you teetered very close to that. Do not allow anyone to take of your heart. You can give it all that you want, but do not let others take your dreams or your desires. Give and give and give. That is the doorway to the greatest healing of all. Invite me into your day, into the morn, into the night. I will escort you into passageways that you have forgotten. Run bare-footed in the temples of your past. Allow me to escort you into all that you are for it is a place of completion that you come home to. I am Sophia as are you.

http://www.thequantumawakening.com/current_newsletter.htm for January 2005


SO IF YOU STILL HAVE A POINT TO MAKE... FIND A DIFFERENT SCRIPTURE(S) LEAVING HER OUT OF IT

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@Tothalordbeallglory ... If you dont read this whole thing... scroll down to the dangers to Ecumenical gathering....

@Keiw1

Yes, indeed..... my Heavenly Father had thew Word who became incarnate living along side of Him from eternity past. Praise the Lord.

Your religion has to scramble to make what you believe seem plausible.

Every time I see someone trying to tie Jesus into the female Wisdom makes me wonder what in the world they are thinking... for there is nothing feminine about Jesus yet Wisdom, according to the poets and scribes embodies femineity.

Does this idea not sound strange knowing Wisdom (Hebrew ḥokhmah, Greek sophia) is grammatically feminine, speaks as a woman, and is personified as “Lady Wisdom.”? Do you not wonder how the early Christians (and most Christians ever since) feel comfortable saying, “This is actually talking about Jesus, who is a man”?

Before I go on.... A bit of trivia for you.. Back in the 1990's there was a conference held for not just Presbyterians but othe protestant groups.... It was a Re-Imagining Group. There is a whole lot of this online if you are curious... and seeing that you are using Prov 8:22 you should be..... (BTW... they still are working though more quietly now.

Some links you can readily access.

Re-Imagining - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Re-Imagining was a Minneapolis interfaith conference of clergy, laypeople, and feminist theologians in 1993 that stirred controversy in U.S. Mainline Protestant denominations,ultimately resulting in the firing of the highest ranking woman in the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) Re-Imagining: A Global Theological Conference By Women: For Men and Women, grew out of a U.S.A. Mainline Protestant response to the World Council of Churches' Ecumenical Decade: Churches in Solidarity with Women 1988–1998. Participants met at the Minneapolis Convention Center during November 4 through 7, 1993.

It brought together 2,200 people, one third of them clergy, and most of them women. 83 men registered. Attendees represented 16 denominations, 27 countries, and 49 states.

Pay careful attention to what is RED in this teaser

Fallout Escalates over ‘Goddess’ Sophia Worship - Christianity Today

Ecumenical conferences often come and go with little notice.But the fallout from last fall’s “Re-Imagining” event has continued to escalate as more people

www.christianitytoday.com

Ecumenical conferences often come and go with little notice.

But the fallout from last fall’s “Re-Imagining” event has continued to escalate as more people have discovered the depth of its unorthodox feminist worship and teaching.

During one session, a controversial incantation was used, including the words: “Our maker, Sophia, we are women in your image, with the hot blood of our wombs we give form to new life … with nectar between our thighs we invite a lover … with our warm body fluids we remind the world of its pleasures and sensations.”

Sophia: Goddess of Wisdom & God's Bride

Sophia: Goddess of Wisdom & God’s Wife Sophia Prayers & Gallery By Katia Romanoff (with contributions by young Mark Raines) Who is Sophia? Literally she is Wisdom, because the Greek word Sophia means “wisdom” in English. More than that, Sophia is the Wisdom of Deity. She has been revered as the...

northernway.org

This is among the worst and they all hail back to Proverbs 8-9... They are so desperate to include a woman into the divinity.

3. About
Sophia, Hidden Goddess of the West by Brother Leonard

Sophia:
Exile & Return Excerpt: Sophia personifies wisdom, an ancient tradition concerned with integrity in the marketplace, politics, and royal court. Because the teachings were rooted in life instead of doctrine, Sophia became problematical and excluded from the religious formulations of monotheism. This manuscript is about exile–Sophia’s and our own. I compare Sophia’s exile from mainstream religion to the alienation suffered by modern individuals who experience loss, betrayal, and abandonment. What is exiled in today’s dysfunctional paradigm is the vital soul, the genius or daemon. When we pay attention to it by taking our life seriously–as a mode of knowledge–we awaken its fire. The vital expresses the integrity and intelligence of the life force, whose awakening turns exile into home–revealing Sophia to be not divine but the source of divine images–the human psyche. While Sophia has been interpreted as divine, goddess or psychological image, she is examined here from several unique perspectives. First, Sophia is developed from the context of modern life and real people, but in conversation with the historical and mythological. Second, the dark side is confronted through analysis of Sophia’s “Other” faces, Lilith and Hecate, locating it as the source of individual power and knowledge. Third, it provides modern women with an image of female power that is not based solely on reproduction and mothering but on another aspect of the feminine archetype rarely discussed–the intelligence and cosmic power of the life force. Finally, it introduces the “path of crumbs” which encourages women to direct their own life through recognition of the guidance present in circumstances.

And you need to read, and reread this following Sophia Creed.

The Creed of the Holy Spirit

(by Unknown author. Please email if you know who wrote this!)

I believe in the Blessed Sophia.

I believe that she is Our Heavenly Father’s Beloved Daughter.

I believe our souls dwelled with them in the Beginning, in harmony and love.

I believe that Sophia is the Divine Daughter.

That She lives in all women, and her strength and grace inspires all;

And she has sinned, learnt and is now strong and free.

I believe that Sophia is the Great Mother.

She is the Eema, the image of the hight of our strength;

And she has tutored me along Her Holy Path.

I believe that Sophia is the Holy Soul.

The Pneuma, the inner Crone of death and understanding within me;

And that She will bring completion in my waning days.

I believe that Sophia is the Spirit of God.

She is the Celestial Mother, and unites the Father and Child;

And She has given us knowledge of Their nurturing ways.

I believe in the Aeons, the Spirits, the gods of the Unknown God.

They are ruled by Sophia, they are Her children;

They all come from the Mother and to Her they shall return.

I believe in Reincarnation.

Her soul allows us to cycle throughout the prinsonhosue of matter;

Until we achieve the Liberation of the Light of Her Unknown Source.

I live in duty to restore honour to The Holy Spirit.

In prayer and reverence of all Her rituals;

From the masks of saints and goddesses, to restore honour to the True Queen.

The Hail Sophia

Hail Sophia, filled with Light, the Christ is with thee.

Blessed art thou among the Aeons and blessed is the liberator of thy Light, Jesus.

Holy Sophia, Mother of all Gods, pray to the Light for us thy children, now and in the hour of our death,

Amen.

I will post no more from this link......

I will say.... I do believe in my very soul that for anyone to try and tie that woman Wisdom... to Our Lord Jesus by anymeans
is nothing short of offering very heritical views.

I had more about what you wrote but as I was reminded as I was looking things up about Wisdom/Sophia
how dastardly horrendous things have come about by the biblical mention of that name in the Holy Scriptures...
AND NO... I do not feel that is inspired.....

Here... you might find this one educational.... I do not.....

Jesus Sophia in the Bible | Bible and Beyond Discussions

Gender bending and gender pluralism provide backdrops for understanding the intersections of Wisdom, Jesus, and Sophia.

earlychristiantexts.com

This Bible and Beyond Discussion looked at the figure of Jesus Sophia. A quick overview of the divine female figure Wisdom/Sophia in Proverbs, the Book of Wisdom, and Ecclesiasticus was followed by the figure of Jesus Sophia in Matthew, Luke, John, and I Corinthians. Overlaps of Jesus and Sophia in the Gospel of Thomas, the Gospel of Truth, and the Secret Revelation of John were examined. Gender bending, gender pluralism, and divine-human figures provided backdrops for understanding the intersections of Wisdom, Jesus, and Sophia in ancient literature and contemporary theology and spirituality. These three texts were helpful: Proverbs 8; Book of Wisdom (or, Wisdom of Solomon) chapters 10-12 ; and Ecclesiasticus (or Sirach) chapter 1.



This last one should be an eye opener and alert one that the name of Jesus should not be connected to the "Goddess Sophia or
the Goddess Wisdom.

It is correct that Jesus spoke of wisdom often.... but not the person... but as a divine attribute and a gift from God, characterized by the ability to make sound judgments and decisions based on knowledge, understanding, and moral discernment

Sophia

Channeled by Gillian MacBeth-Louthan​

I am the She-ness of All that is, I am Sophia. I am the breath of that which you have spoken. I am the breath that is and that is yet to be birthed.

I bring within my words and energies a fulfillment that comes not from the substance of earth, nor from the substance of self. I ask you to taste the sweetness that you are as you kiss the lips of God. I ask you to taste the sweetness that was destined to be your life before you chose the conflict. Come forth into the fullness of your power in this hour of light. Do not wait a fortnight; do not wait another day until the timing is correct in your perceptions. For in the scheme of universal knowledge and the schematics of universal light, there is but this moment. In this moment you need to fill yourself with all that you want to be. Do not talk of what you shall accomplish one day, but fulfill that accomplishment within your mind, within the pictures of your heart and the pictures of your word in this moment, this thought.

In the upcoming time, you will find that many words that you speak will change in enunciation, in meaning, and change in vibration. You will find that as you speak, a gentle hum is heard in your heart as it begins to vibrate with truth so fast that music is created. These are not heart palpitations but the sound of love that hums through the caverns of your being.

I am She that was whispered into existence by the mouth of God. I am sometimes seen as Shekinah, the holy breath, the Holy Spirit. I am feminine of nature, but not always depicted as such. I come forth with the vibration and the teachings of the ancient Magdalenes. You birth a New World on this day by believing. You birth a great white hope that lives so deeply in your cell memory that you have not yet seen it in your world. You birth on this day a completion as you spiral and dance around all layers and faces of your soul and of yourself finally landing in climax within the oceans of your being. I am that which is yet to be found within you. I am the sacred feminine that you seek but do not always see reflected in the mirror of your life. I am the sacred face of the feminine light of God and I come to heal you as I come to birth myself.

The essence of Sophia (Ma-RI) has lived by many names and each one of them you have donned as a costume in the masquerade of life. You came in this time holding an encoding that will be released in these upcoming times. It is that sacred number, that sacred sound, that sacred geometry and color of the Wild Woman untamed Goddess within you that you allowed to be birthed in fullness for me and through me.

It is time for you to celebrate everything about you for every one of you is a strand in the tapestry of my cloak of light. The doorway opens for you to see and to celebrate. Some days the celebration will be in a place of loneliness and other days it will be in a large beautiful group, but it matters not. Your life needs to be a celebration of who you want to be and who you know you are. Strip off the weather coatings that you wear as protection and allow your glorious beautiful self to be seen in the fullness of time. Do not be afraid of your emotions or your angers or your passions. Do not be afraid of your wild hair days.

If you would sound my sound in your heart, it will help you to heal for it comes as an elixir, as an amendment to all the rules of order that you were forced to follow from time beginning. Say my name softly to yourself Sophia Sophia Sophia. Does it not soothe the thorns of your being? For in that sound is a memory and in that memory you are very close to home.

I thank you for being who you are. You have never allowed others to break your spirit even though there were times when you teetered very close to that. Do not allow anyone to take of your heart. You can give it all that you want, but do not let others take your dreams or your desires. Give and give and give. That is the doorway to the greatest healing of all. Invite me into your day, into the morn, into the night. I will escort you into passageways that you have forgotten. Run bare-footed in the temples of your past. Allow me to escort you into all that you are for it is a place of completion that you come home to. I am Sophia as are you.

http://www.thequantumawakening.com/current_newsletter.htm for January 2005


SO IF YOU STILL HAVE A POINT TO MAKE... FIND A DIFFERENT SCRIPTURE(S) LEAVING HER OUT OF IT

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All true followers believe Jesus. John 20:17, Rev 3:12)--