Open Debate on the "Eternal Sonship vs Incarnate Sonship which is biblical?"

"Eternal Sonship vs Incarnate Sonship which is biblical?"
the Incarnate Sonship? the son of God came out of Mary. the ETERNAL Son of man came from heaven.

in the Incarnation, God, the Almighty, Jesus in "Diversity" took part... note, not a partaker, but took part in flesh and blood. one need to KNOW the difference between "TOOK PART and "PARTAKER".... then one will know the difference between Son of man and son of God. and once knowing that then one can understand the First and the Last, the LORD, and Lord, the Father and the Son in Ordinal Designations.

101G
 
But I said it first 😂
remember... no back and forth. so if you have anything to REASON about what 101G posted about God being JESUS ... "ONLY", or the son of God and the Son of man, please do. thanks in advance.

101G.
 
Since I am not to back and forth with 101G... no joking... nothing friendly.... I will simply say that there is a wonderful 6 letter word beginning with an I that I shall endeavor to remind mum's the word.

When there could well be a great convo about the HBFV.
 
GINOLJC, to all.
Now with the sitting on a throne thing cleared up in the topic, "All Claims of The Son's Deity", post #1378. let's clear up this Father and son thing..... it's not BIOLOGICAL. God, JESUS, don't have a father, nor mother. BUT THE CHRIST DO. are we understanding 101G's usage of language.

statement, The Christ made NOTHING, but the Lord JESUS made all things.
Statement, The Christ was Born, but not the Lord Jesus.

Just one more statement, because 101G don't want to give away too much....... (smile)
statement, The Lord Jesus made man in the beginning, on day three, and made from one man on day six another man with the gender female, but Christ made NOTHING. this should stir up the mud.... oh, the waters...... (smile).

101G.
 
Eve, dose not resurrection means a change body? ... a new body? you said, "Christ raised His glorified eden body". when did his "GLORIFIED" body ever died in ordered to be raised? not a gloried body ...... correct.

i did not say His body died
half right, but no rapture.

i disagree
A. What do ROOT of David means? the source, origin, and before David, as well as before Abraham, as well as BEFORE Adam. ... hello, Jesus is God. as a matter of FACT the ONLY GOD...... 😇 ................ 😜

B. Let's get the Holy Spirit also, the "advocate" who is the Lord Jesus, the COMFORTER.... (smile).

101G
 
This is the IGNORANCE 101G speak of. a fleshly minded person. Romans 8:5 "For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit." Romans 8:6 "For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace." Romans 8:7 "Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be." Romans 8:8 "So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God." Romans 8:9 "But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his."

101G.
the body itself is carnal. and this place is death.
 
In 2025 in August... An eternity ago it seems this was posted in reply #1 of this thread and I just now saw it and wish to put in my 2 cents worth... (worth 4cents at my local grocer)

Yes, I know this is a dead thread... but ????????????

@Eternally-Grateful you commented...

@Eternally-Grateful
@Eternally-Grateful


The Eternal Sonship is a dogma that is discredited logically by self contradiction. To contend that Jesus was eternally begotten is a manifest contradiction of term. We ask: can an object begin and not begun? No. The saying within itself is most absurd. Why do not people consider this, and understand it? Acts 28:25-27 is the answer.
Begotten is his humanity..,

Correction.

“begotten” does not refer to Jesus’ humanity. The Bible and historic Christian orthodoxy apply “begotten” to His eternal deity, not to the human nature He took on at the incarnation.

Here is the correct breakdown:


TermWhat It Refers ToScripture Proof
Eternally begotten (or “only-begotten”)The Son’s divine nature and eternal relationship to the Father — He is begotten of the Father before all worlds, not made, not created, always God.John 1:14, 18 (best Greek texts); John 3:16; Psalm 2:7 (quoted in Heb 1:5 as eternal); Nicene Creed (325 AD): “begotten, not made, of one substance with the Father”
Born of the Virgin MaryHis human nature — He became man at a point in time (incarnation). This is not called “begotten” in Scripture or creeds.Luke 1:35; Galatians 4:4; “born of a woman”

Why “only-begotten” (monogenēs) is about deity, not humanity​


John 1:18 (most ancient manuscripts): “the only-begotten God (monogenēs theos) who is in the bosom of the Father” → clearly divine.

John 3:16 “only-begotten Son” is parallel to John 1:1–2 — the eternal Word who was with God and was God.

The early church fought the Arian heresy (who said “begotten” meant Jesus had a beginning) and ruled that “begotten” = eternal generation, not a creation event.

It should be said that Jesus is eternally begotten as God the Son from the Father (His diety) and born in time from the Virgin Mary as man (His humanity)

Begotten never refers to the incarnation.

Your statement that "Begotten is his humanity" is the opposite of what scripture and 2000 years of Christian teaching affirm.
 
@FreeInChrist @Jim
In 2025 in August... An eternity ago it seems this was posted in reply #1 of this thread and I just now saw it and wish to put in my 2 cents worth... (worth 4cents at my local grocer)
Pennies are worthless now, five cent soon to follow.
Begotten is his humanity..,

Correction.
You are wrong about the Bible. and if you are referring to historic Christianity then you must be referring to EOC and RCC which many have followed their heresies on many subjects. I am saying this since you reference the RCC Nicene Creed, which we reject as heresy. More on this late, the Lord willing.
begotten” does not refer to Jesus’ humanity.
Your proof for this comes from google and the RCC supplying them their proof, you posted:
TermWhat It Refers ToScripture Proof
Eternally begotten (or “only-begotten”)The Son’s divine nature and eternal relationship to the Father — He is begotten of the Father before all worlds, not made, not created, always God.John 1:14, 18 (best Greek texts); John 3:16; Psalm 2:7 (quoted in Heb 1:5 as eternal); Nicene Creed (325 AD): “begotten, not made, of one substance with the Father”
Born of the Virgin MaryHis human nature — He became man at a point in time (incarnation). This is not called “begotten” in Scripture or creeds.Luke 1:35; Galatians 4:4; “born of a woman”

Why “only-begotten” (monogenēs) is about deity, not humanity​


John 1:18 (most ancient manuscripts): “the only-begotten God (monogenēs theos) who is in the bosom of the Father” → clearly divine.

John 3:16 “only-begotten Son” is parallel to John 1:1–2 — the eternal Word who was with God and was God.

The early church fought the Arian heresy (who said “begotten” meant Jesus had a beginning) and ruled that “begotten” = eternal generation, not a creation event.
First one at a time. Your proof text for Jesus being begotten using Hebrews 1:5 is made void by God's very own testimony of understanding the proper sense of begotten in that verse. Consider:

Hebrews 1:5​

“For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?”

And you believe this speaks of Jesus Deity, for you said: "He is begotten of the Father before all worlds, not made, not created, always God."

Let us let the word of God explain to us the proper sense concerning Hebrews 1:5. Have you never read so much as these words:
@FreeInChrist the biblical meaning of Hebrews 1:5 and the second Psalm from whence those words were taken speaks of Jesus resurrection from the dead! If you just take off running and copy and paste anything from RCC then be assured that you are posting corruption of God's truth. Those effeminate men would not know the truth if it it hit them right between the eyes.

That's the proper sense of Hebrews 1:5 proven by Acts 13 by the apostle Paul.

Also, Jesus being God's only begotten (begotten in the manner in which Jesus was conceived) Son happened in time around two thousand years ago according to God's very own testimony. It was his humanity that was begotten, that came by water and blood.
Begotten never refers to the incarnation.

Your statement that "Begotten is his humanity" is the opposite of what scripture and 2000 years of Christian teaching affirm.
I'm coming back in the morning with a separate post addressing this point, and will prove the dangerous heresy of teaching that Jesus was eternally generated (begotten).
 
@FreeInChrist @Jim

Pennies are worthless now, five cent soon to follow.

You are wrong about the Bible. and if you are referring to historic Christianity then you must be referring to EOC and RCC which many have followed their heresies on many subjects. I am saying this since you reference the RCC Nicene Creed, which we reject as heresy. More on this late, the Lord willing.

Your proof for this comes from google and the RCC supplying them their proof, you posted:

First one at a time. Your proof text for Jesus being begotten using Hebrews 1:5 is made void by God's very own testimony of understanding the proper sense of begotten in that verse. Consider:

Hebrews 1:5​

“For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?”

And you believe this speaks of Jesus Deity, for you said: "He is begotten of the Father before all worlds, not made, not created, always God."

Let us let the word of God explain to us the proper sense concerning Hebrews 1:5. Have you never read so much as these words:

@FreeInChrist the biblical meaning of Hebrews 1:5 and the second Psalm from whence those words were taken speaks of Jesus resurrection from the dead! If you just take off running and copy and paste anything from RCC then be assured that you are posting corruption of God's truth. Those effeminate men would not know the truth if it it hit them right between the eyes.

That's the proper sense of Hebrews 1:5 proven by Acts 13 by the apostle Paul.

Also, Jesus being God's only begotten (begotten in the manner in which Jesus was conceived) Son happened in time around two thousand years ago according to God's very own testimony. It was his humanity that was begotten, that came by water and blood.

I'm coming back in the morning with a separate post addressing this point, and will prove the dangerous heresy of teaching that Jesus was eternally generated (begotten).
Well, when you get done ripping me and tossing me to the Papal dogs read the following that is NOT RCC or EOC.

It is not tied to any specific religion but leans very heavily into Christianity... and is a strong supporter of predestination....
though we have debated that and I find I am not totally off the track.

I checked and you are wrong and he is right.... no matter what you say....

The title of the inquiry is Grok, can you clear the screen and then put only the article on "Jesus is begotten... is the following correct Begotten is his humanity..,". I want to send the link to the article only for they insist I got it from the heresies of the Roman Catholic Church.

And the link does work (https://grok.com/c/4b6a7852-b090-4f20-99b4-81e648b7180a) You might have to scroll down for the last article... under the title above..... as it sometime comes right on and other times a bit before. I will not use this until tomorrow afternoon... Thur.... so you can get to the right spot



You see @Red Baker .... I have multiple sources I use to confirm what I write including the Holy Bible....
this is just one of them. I do not trust teachers, bnot even male definitely not female because they all have a personal slant like the one who told me he would not correct the mini lesson to children about the Wisemen arriving at the manger because it would create confusion.... "with the adults" I have papers on the church .. I have commentaries... I have available more then one Ai....
Its interesting when they agree with each other.... I have opinions for posters here, and elsewhere.... male and female...

But I will tell you this if you ever again suggest I am referring to the RCC I will put you on ignore and delete your email.
Yes, I mean it because you know exactly how I feel about things there that Amo and I talked about along with others.

If I am going to reference them I will announce the fact and it will only be with provable theology.

I take my exegesis very seriously because I always want to be sure my know knows... (Have you figured out yet what I mean by that?)

Now, loet me have your best shot.
 
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In 2025 in August... An eternity ago it seems this was posted in reply #1 of this thread and I just now saw it and wish to put in my 2 cents worth... (worth 4cents at my local grocer)

Yes, I know this is a dead thread... but ????????????

@Eternally-Grateful you commented...

@Eternally-Grateful

Begotten is his humanity..,

Correction.

“begotten” does not refer to Jesus’ humanity. The Bible and historic Christian orthodoxy apply “begotten” to His eternal deity, not to the human nature He took on at the incarnation.

Here is the correct breakdown:


TermWhat It Refers ToScripture Proof
Eternally begotten (or “only-begotten”)The Son’s divine nature and eternal relationship to the Father — He is begotten of the Father before all worlds, not made, not created, always God.John 1:14, 18 (best Greek texts); John 3:16; Psalm 2:7 (quoted in Heb 1:5 as eternal); Nicene Creed (325 AD): “begotten, not made, of one substance with the Father”
Born of the Virgin MaryHis human nature — He became man at a point in time (incarnation). This is not called “begotten” in Scripture or creeds.Luke 1:35; Galatians 4:4; “born of a woman”

Why “only-begotten” (monogenēs) is about deity, not humanity​


John 1:18 (most ancient manuscripts): “the only-begotten God (monogenēs theos) who is in the bosom of the Father” → clearly divine.

John 3:16 “only-begotten Son” is parallel to John 1:1–2 — the eternal Word who was with God and was God.

The early church fought the Arian heresy (who said “begotten” meant Jesus had a beginning) and ruled that “begotten” = eternal generation, not a creation event.

It should be said that Jesus is eternally begotten as God the Son from the Father (His diety) and born in time from the Virgin Mary as man (His humanity)

Begotten never refers to the incarnation.

Your statement that "Begotten is his humanity" is the opposite of what scripture and 2000 years of Christian teaching affirm.
Only begotten=monogenes=unique= The firstborn of all creation= created direct, first and last, all other things created-THROUGH him( John 1:3-Col 1:15-16)
 
Eternal Sonship is the historical/ biblical / orthodox position :)

Ignatius of Antioch​

“Jesus Christ . . . was with the Father before the beginning of time, and in the end was revealed” (Letter to the Magnesians 6 [A.D. 110]).

Justin Martyr​

“Jesus Christ is the only proper Son who has been begotten by God, being his Word and first-begotten, and power; and, becoming man according to his will, he taught us these things for the conversion and restoration of the human race” (First Apology 23 [A.D. 151]).

“God begot before all creatures a beginning, who was a certain rational power from himself and whom the Holy Spirit calls . . . sometimes the Son . . . sometimes Lord and Word” (Dialogue with Trypho the Jew 61 [A.D. 155]).

Irenaeus​

“[The Gnostics] transfer the generation of the uttered word of men to the eternal Word of God, attributing to him a beginning of utterance and a coming into being . . . . In what manner, then, would the Word of God—indeed, the great God himself, since he isthe Word—differ from the word of men?” (Against Heresies 2:13:8 [A.D. 189]).

Tertullian​

“The Father makes him equal to himself, and the Son, by proceeding from him, was made the first-begotten, since he was begotten before all things, and the only-begotten, because he alone was begotten of God, in a manner peculiar to himself, from the womb of his own heart, to which even the Father himself gives witness: ‘My heart has poured forth my finest Word’ [Ps. 45:1–2]” (Against Praxeas 7:1 [A.D. 216]).

Hippolytus​

“Therefore, this sole and universal God, by reflecting, first brought forth the Word—not a word as in speech, but as a mental word, the reason for everything. . . . The Word was the cause of those things which came into existence, carrying out in himself the will of him by whom he was begotten. . . . Only [God’s] Word is from himself and is therefore also God, becoming the substance of God” (Refutation of All Heresies 10:33 [A.D. 228]).

Origen​

“So also Wisdom, since he proceeds from God, is generated from the very substance of God” (Commentary on Hebrews [A.D. 237]).

Gregory the Wonderworker​

“There is one God, the Father of the living Word, who is his subsistent wisdom and power and eternal image: perfect begetter of the perfect begotten, Father of the only-begotten Son. There is one Lord, only of the only, God of God, image and likeness of deity, efficient Word, wisdom comprehensive of the constitution of all things, and power formative of the whole creation, true Son of true Father” (Declaration of Faith [A.D. 265]).

Lactantius​

“When we speak of God the Father and God the Son, we do not speak of them as different, nor do we separate them, because the Father cannot exist without the Son, nor can the Son be separated from the Father, since the name of ‘Father’ cannot be given without the Son, nor can the Son be begotten without the Father. . . . [T]hey both have one mind, one spirit, one substance” (Divine Institutes 4:28–29 [A.D. 307]).

Council of Nicaea I​

“We believe . . . in our one Lord Jesus Christ the Son of God, the only-begotten born of the Father, that is, of the substance of the Father, God of God, light of light, true God of true God, begotten, not made . . .” (The Creed of Nicaea [A.D. 325]).

Cyril of Jerusalem​

“Believe also in the Son of God, the one and only, our Lord Jesus Christ, who is God begotten of God, who is life begotten of life, who is light begotten of light, who is in all things like unto the begetter, and who did not come to exist in time but was before all the ages, eternally and incomprehensibly begotten of the Father” (Catechetical Lectures 4:7 [A.D. 350]).

The Long Ignatius​

“[O]ur God, Jesus the Christ, the only-begotten Son and Word before time began, but who afterwards became also man, of Mary the Virgin. For ‘the Word was made flesh’ [John 1:14]” (Letter to the Ephesians 7 [A.D. 350]).

Athanasius​

“When these points have been demonstrated, then they [the Arians] speak even more impudently: ‘If there never was a time when the Son was not, and if he is eternal and coexists with the Father, then you are saying that he is not a Son at all, but the Father’s brother.’ O dull and contentious men! Indeed, if we said only that he coexisted eternally and had not called him Son, their pretended difficulty would have some plausibility. But if while saying that he is eternal, we confess him as Son of the Father, how were it possible for him that is begotten to be called a brother of him that begets? . . . For the Father and the Son were not generated from some preexisting source, so that they might be accounted as brothers. Rather, the Father is the source and begetter of the Son. . . . It is proper for men to beget in time, because of the imperfections of their nature; but the offspring of God is eternal because God’s nature is ever perfect” (Discourses Against the Arians 1:14 [A.D. 360]).

Basil the Great​

“What was in the beginning? ‘The Word,’ he says. . . . Why the Word? So that we might know that he proceeded from the mind. Why the Word? Because he was begotten without passion. Why the Word? Because he is image of the Father who begets him, showing forth the Father fully, in no way separated from him, and subsisting perfectly in himself, just as our word entirely befits our thought” (Eulogies and Sermons 16:3 [A.D. 368]).

Ambrose of Milan​

“[The Arians] think that they must posit the objection of his [Christ] having said, ‘I live on account of the Father.’ Certainly if they refer the saying to his divinity, the Son lives on account of the Father, because the Son is from the Father; on account of the Father, because he is of one substance with the Father; on account of the Father, because he is the Word given forth from the heart of the Father; because he proceeds from the Father” (The Faith 4:10:132 [A.D. 379]).

Gregory of Nazianz​

“He is called Son because he is identical to the Father in essence; and not only this, but also because he is of him. He is called only-begotten not because he is a unique Son . . . but because he is Son in a unique fashion and not in a corporeal way. He is called Word because he is to the Father what a word is to the mind” (Orations 30:20 [A.D. 380]).

Council of Constantinople I​

“We believe . . . in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, born of the Father before all ages, light of light, true God of true God, begotten, not made, consubstantial with the Father” (The Nicene Creed [A.D. 381]) .

Council of Rome​

“If anyone does not say that the Son was begotten of the Father, that is, of the divine substance of him himself, he is a heretic” (Tome of Damasus, canon 11 [A.D. 382]).

The Athanasian Creed​

“The Father is not made nor created nor begotten by anyone. The Son is from the Father alone, not made or created, but begotten. . . . Let him who wishes to be saved, think thus concerning the Trinity. But it is necessary for eternal salvation that he faithfully believe also in the incarnation. . . . He is God begotten of the substance of the Father before time, and he is man born of the substance of his mother in time” (Athanasian Creed [A.D. 400]).

Augustine​

“In the way that you speak a word that you have in your heart and it is with you . . . that is how God issued the Word, that is to say, how he begot the Son. And you, indeed, beget a word too in your heart, without temporal preparation; God begot the Son outside of time, the Son through whom he created all things” (Homilies on John 14:7 [A.D. 416]).
 
Jesus = God taught him everything, God gave him the name above other names, God gave him a kingship, God gave him all authority and judging. Thus if God didn't give those things to Jesus he had none of them. One greater than him= Father gave to him and taught him=The one whom God grew especially fond of= the Master worker( Jesus)
Only begotten = created direct, first and last( Prov 8:22-30) all other things created-THROUGH-( Gods master worker) Jesus( John 1:3-Col 1:15-16)-The one who was beside God during creation. Speaking at Prov 8:22 until the end of Prov 8. The Hebrew word translated-possessed at verse 22= created. Created me( Jesus) as the beginning of your way= The firstborn of all creation( Col 1:15-16)- only begotten=( monogenes) = unique.
Jesus and the bible writers teach that the Father is Jesus' God- John 20:17-Rev 3:12) 2Cor 1:3-Eph 1:3- Col 1:3- 1Pet 1:3--- Its 100% obvious= God does not have a God.
Proof-US(Gen 1:26) were not creatorS, US = Jehovah( creator) and his master worker( builder) -- At verse 27- HE ( not we or us) created things. Prov 8:27-28-HE created things. Isaiah says i( not we or us) created all things by myself( individual)-- Thus reality= Jehovah created Jesus direct-first and last, then created all other things- THROUGH- Jesus( Master worker) John 1:3-Col 1:15-16)
Jehovah the true living God created all things. His master worker gives him 100% credit at Prov 8:22-30)
 
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@Keiw1
Jesus = God taught him everything, God gave him the name above other names, God gave him a kingship, God gave him all authority and judging. Thus if God didn't give those things to Jesus he had none of them. One greater than him= Father gave to him and taught him=The one whom God grew especially fond of= the Master worker( Jesus)
Only begotten = created direct, first and last( Prov 8:22-30) all other things created-THROUGH-( Gods master worker) Jesus( John 1:3-Col 1:15-16)-The one who was beside God during creation. Speaking at Prov 8:22 until the end of Prov 8. The Hebrew word translated-possessed at verse 22= created. Created me( Jesus) as the beginning of your way= The firstborn of all creation( Col 1:15-16)- only begotten=( monogenes) = unique.
Jesus and the bible writers teach that the Father is Jesus' God- John 20:17-Rev 3:12) 2Cor 1:3-Eph 1:3- Col 1:3- 1Pet 1:3--- Its 100% obvious= God does not have a God.
Proof-US(Gen 1:26) were not creatorS, US = Jehovah( creator) and his master worker( builder) -- At verse 27- HE ( not we or us) created things. Prov 8:27-28-HE created things. Isaiah says i( not we or us) created all things by myself( individual)-- Thus reality= Jehovah created Jesus direct-first and last, then created all other things- THROUGH- Jesus( Master worker) John 1:3-Col 1:15-16)
Jehovah the true living God created all things. His master worker gives him 100% credit at Prov 8:22-30)
Is this you Louisiana jambalaya you folks feed you people with?
 
Jesus = God taught him everything, God gave him the name above other names, God gave him a kingship, God gave him all authority and judging. Thus if God didn't give those things to Jesus he had none of them. One greater than him= Father gave to him and taught him=The one whom God grew especially fond of= the Master worker( Jesus)
Only begotten = created direct,

While working my way through your word salad..... Only begotten does not mean created direct... whatever direct means'

Your suggestion that “Only-begotten (monogenēs) = created directly” is not true....

The Greek word monogenēs does not mean “created. ” It means “unique / one-of-a-kind / only-begotten”..... referring to the eternal, divine relationship, not a beginning in time.




first and last( Prov 8:22-30) all other things created-THROUGH-( Gods master worker) Jesus( John 1:3-Col 1:15-16)-The one who was beside God during creation. Speaking at Prov 8:22 until the end of Prov 8. The Hebrew word translated-possessed at verse 22= created. Created me( Jesus) as the beginning of your way= The firstborn of all creation( Col 1:15-16)- only begotten=( monogenes) = unique.
Jesus and the bible writers teach that the Father is Jesus' God- John 20:17-Rev 3:12) 2Cor 1:3-Eph 1:3- Col 1:3- 1Pet 1:3--- Its 100% obvious= God does not have a God.
Proof-US(Gen 1:26) were not creatorS, US = Jehovah( creator) and his master worker( builder) -- At verse 27- HE ( not we or us) created things. Prov 8:27-28-HE created things. Isaiah says i( not we or us) created all things by myself( individual)-- Thus reality= Jehovah created Jesus direct-first and last, then created all other things- THROUGH- Jesus( Master worker) John 1:3-Col 1:15-16)
Jehovah the true living God created all things. His master worker gives him 100% credit at Prov 8:22-30)

Your cherry picking has your mind all twisted... There is not one thing written here that says anything .

Again.... Jehovah created Jesus direct-first and last, then created all other things- THROUGH- Jesus( Master worker)
Jehovah the true living God created all things. His master worker gives him 100% credit at Prov 8:22-30

The early church fought the Arians (who said “begotten = created”) and won at Nicaea 325 AD: “begotten, not made.”If “only-begotten” meant “created,” John 1:18 would call Jesus “the only-begotten creature” — but it calls Him God.


The Bible that YOU constantly do not understand says Jesus is the uncreated Creator of everything — no exceptions.

Colossianhs 1:16 "For by him {Jesus} all things were created in heaven and on earth.... all things were created through Him and for him.
"All things" includes the highest angels........NO creature is left out

John 1:3 "All things were made through him , and woithout him was not anything made that was made"

"Nothing that exists was made without Jesus.....that would include Jesus Himself if He were made.

Hebrews 1:2 " ... through whom (the Son) also He created the world."

Same truth.... the Don is the agent of creation not part of it.

Revelation 3:14 "the beginning of God's creation"

In Greek = "the origin/source (archē) of God's creation" .... Jesus is the Beginner, not the first created!


Isaiah 44:24 Yahweh says: “I am the LORD, who made all things, who alone stretched out the heavens, who spread out the earth by myself.” Jesus is that same LORD (Yahweh) .... not a sub-contractor.


To consider.... “If Jesus were created, Colossians 1:16 and John 1:3 would have to say ‘all other things were created by him’ — but they deliberately say all things, with no exception.”

 
While working my way through your word salad..... Only begotten does not mean created direct... whatever direct means'

Your suggestion that “Only-begotten (monogenēs) = created directly” is not true....

The Greek word monogenēs does not mean “created. ” It means “unique / one-of-a-kind / only-begotten”..... referring to the eternal, divine relationship, not a beginning in time.






Your cherry picking has your mind all twisted... There is not one thing written here that says anything .

Again.... Jehovah created Jesus direct-first and last, then created all other things- THROUGH- Jesus( Master worker)
Jehovah the true living God created all things. His master worker gives him 100% credit at Prov 8:22-30

The early church fought the Arians (who said “begotten = created”) and won at Nicaea 325 AD: “begotten, not made.”If “only-begotten” meant “created,” John 1:18 would call Jesus “the only-begotten creature” — but it calls Him God.


The Bible that YOU constantly do not understand says Jesus is the uncreated Creator of everything — no exceptions.

Colossianhs 1:16 "For by him {Jesus} all things were created in heaven and on earth.... all things were created through Him and for him.
"All things" includes the highest angels........NO creature is left out

John 1:3 "All things were made through him , and woithout him was not anything made that was made"

"Nothing that exists was made without Jesus.....that would include Jesus Himself if He were made.

Hebrews 1:2 " ... through whom (the Son) also He created the world."

Same truth.... the Don is the agent of creation not part of it.

Revelation 3:14 "the beginning of God's creation"

In Greek = "the origin/source (archē) of God's creation" .... Jesus is the Beginner, not the first created!


Isaiah 44:24 Yahweh says: “I am the LORD, who made all things, who alone stretched out the heavens, who spread out the earth by myself.” Jesus is that same LORD (Yahweh) .... not a sub-contractor.


To consider.... “If Jesus were created, Colossians 1:16 and John 1:3 would have to say ‘all other things were created by him’ — but they deliberately say all things, with no exception.”

Yes they are up a creek without a paddle since we know the Son was co- creator with the Father in the Shema - 1 Corinthians 8:6.
 
none of the uni's are willing to debate 1 Corinthians 8:6 and stick to the text without going elsewhere. :)
Cause they are headed down a dead end road and then hit that wall with no where to go. banghead_smiley.gif

Possibly a reason why they all get so hard headed.....?
 
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