Open Debate on the "Eternal Sonship vs Incarnate Sonship which is biblical?"

[praise_yeshua]

To all,
what many are missing is this. understand, Adam was the IMAGE of God..... to come. and remember God is Spirit. so, he God was to come in that IMAGE... flesh bone and blood, listen, Isaiah 48:3 "I have declared the former things from the beginning; and they went forth out of my mouth, and I shewed them; I did them suddenly, and they came to pass."

Isaiah 46:10 "Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:"

Adam wasn't fully in the image of God. Adam sinned. Adam wasn't what He shall be in the firstborn. The Heir. The Person of the Trinity Incarnate. Jesus Christ.

You're close but not being exacting in this. The Holy Trinity is a much deeper and fuller teaching than what you're presenting. As I've told you before. I respect your care of Jesus Christ but you need to see the loving Unity of the Holy Trinity. It will change you.

 

[101G]

@praise_yeshua, again 101G ask, is this the same one person in

Adam wasn't fully in the image of God. Adam sinned. Adam wasn't what He shall be in the firstborn. The Heir. The Person of the Trinity Incarnate. Jesus Christ.

You're close but not being exacting in this. The Holy Trinity is a much deeper and fuller teaching than what you're presenting. As I've told you before. I respect your care of Jesus Christ but you need to see the loving Unity of the Holy Trinity. It will change you.

you contradict the BIBLE, Genesis 1:27 "So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them."

now as for the trinity, again 101G ask is the PERSON in Isaiah 66:22 that created all things is the same one person in Revelation 21 who sits on the throne that CREATED ALL THINGS NEW... yes or no? ..... PLEASE ANSWER.

101G.

 

[Obadiah]

Scripture teaches the Eternal Sonship of our Lord Jesus Christ. This doctrine has been recently denied, and the denial of a cherished belief regarding One Whom we love and revere and adore touches our deepest sensibilities, and stirs our whole being to defense.

My first impulse as a result of my renewed nature is to resent such a denial as a deadly affront to the glory of the Essential Being of our Blessed Lord Jesus Christ, and to reject the implication as one of the many phases of anti-Christian doctrine against which we are warned. And, indeed, an unhesitating refusal to entertain for even a moment anything derogatory to the Son of God is an effective safeguard for us to turn at once from the very appearance of evil, we will be preserved from error and its defilement.

 

[praise_yeshua]

@praise_yeshua, again 101G ask, is this the same one person in

you contradict the BIBLE, Genesis 1:27 "So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them."

now as for the trinity, again 101G ask is the PERSON in Isaiah 66:22 that created all things is the same one person in Revelation 21 who sits on the throne that CREATED ALL THINGS NEW... yes or no? ..... PLEASE ANSWER.

101G.

I have already answered you on this. I said Yes.

As far as Genesis 1:27 is concerned. Genesis 1:27 was the beginning of Adam. Not the end. Adam changed. You do too. I do too.

Christ has never changed relative to Character. Never. Immutable. Perfect. Without need of change. Your position doesn't present this.

That "image" wasn't a exact replica of God. It could never be because it was taken from ashes and dust. Adam is of the earth. Christ is from above.

1Co 15:47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.

 

[Red Baker]

@praise_yeshua

Is the Word and the Son the same Person?

In his Deity as God, of course he is.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Scripture teaches the Eternal Sonship of our Lord Jesus Christ. This doctrine has been recently denied, and the denial of a cherished belief regarding One Whom we love and revere and adore touches our deepest sensibilities, and stirs our whole being to defense.

My first impulse as a result of my renewed nature is to resent such a denial as a deadly affront to the glory of the Essential Being of our Blessed Lord Jesus Christ, and to reject the implication as one of the many phases of anti-Christian doctrine against which we are warned. And, indeed, an unhesitating refusal to entertain for even a moment anything derogatory to the Son of God is an effective safeguard for us to turn at once from the very appearance of evil, we will be preserved from error and its defilement.

Well said!

 

[101G]

In his Deity as God, of course he is.

you did not answer my question ... 101G asked for PERSON. LISTEN is the Person in Isaiah 66:22 the same person who sits on the throne in Revelation 21:5. please answer.... YES or NO?

101G.

 

[praise_yeshua]

@praise_yeshua

In his Deity as God, of course he is.

You said 100 percent man and 100 percent God. I like you saying that. You're not far from this...

The issue you're having is when you're not recognizing the "man" Jesus Christ didn't really change the Eternal.

Isn't God greater than man? This is why I started with how Adam was first clothed in the death of those he loved. This "Son" you see in Mary/God isn't any different in Character than the Eternal Son. Being a "Son" in Person and relationship isn't a contrast. It isn't a lower position. It is equality and love wrapped in all things common among them.

 

[101G]

Scripture teaches the Eternal Sonship of our Lord Jesus Christ.

if it do, then again, 2 Corinthians 6:17 "Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you," 2 Corinthians 6:18 "And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty."

is this the Father or the Son, your answer please.

101G

 

[praise_yeshua]

if it do, then again, 2 Corinthians 6:17 "Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you," 2 Corinthians 6:18 "And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty."

is this the Father or the Son, your answer please.

101G

Maybe this will help. Sons are Fathers.

 

[Obadiah]

if it do, then again, 2 Corinthians 6:17 "Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you," 2 Corinthians 6:18 "And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty."

is this the Father or the Son, your answer please.

101G

These Two are One.

In 2 Corinthians 6:14—7:1, Paul is calling Christians to be separate from the world around them. More specifically, he is commanding the Corinthians to separate themselves from any connection with the worship of idols.

He showed in the previous verse a Christian connected to idol worship is equivalent to Jewish person under the Old Covenant worshiping an idol in the temple. This is because Christians themselves have become God's temples on earth, occupied by His Holy Spirit.

Paul is quoting from a collection of Old Testament passages to make this case. This verse is put together from Isaiah 52:11 and Ezekiel 20:41. God freed the Israelites from slavery to other nations and told them to separate from the peoples around them and to maintain their purity by not even touching forbidden things. Then the Lord would welcome them.

God calls Christians to live in freedom from sin and the law, and to lead holy lives. The difference is that God has already welcomed believers in Christ. We are His people with a permanent place with Christ in eternity. Paul described in his letter to Titus what God has done for us in Christ and how we should live in response: "Jesus Christ, who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people for his own possession who are zealous for good works" (Titus 2:13–14).

 

[FreeInChrist]

@civic @FreeInChrist @Eternally-Grateful

One more time consider these questions and I desire for those who defend the eternal Sonship doctrine to address this post.

Question #1~ Can true Divinity be deprived or propagated? The very thought of this in a positive way is blasphemy against the God of the holy scriptures. What is real Divinity of the Most High God? The following attributes have ever been conceived as essential to it: Self-existence, Infinity, Independence, Omniscience, Omnipotence, Omnipresence, Immutability, eternal both ways, and Infinite in every way possible that is imaginable to the human mind.

The answer to that questions is NO! So how can one believe in eternal Sonship of Jesus Christ? A Sonship relationship that was before the biblical testimony of Luke 1:11-35. I must stand upon God's own testimony of the conception of the Son of God, Jesus of Nazareth, the Son of Man.

I will respond with this from the following, lest you do not catch it when you complete your reading,

No matter our experience of sonship (i.e., having a beginning), the divine must be the lens through which we understand the human, not the other way around. Without the eternality of the Son, we do not have a Christ who can fully save because we do not have a Christ who shares in all the attributes of deity. Without eternal Sonship, we cannot affirm that the Father has always been the Father. And if the Father has not always been in communion with the Son, then love cannot be eternal, for the Father would have had to create another being in order to give and receive love. Likewise, it is only with eternal Sonship that the economic Trinity (that which we see about God in the unfolding of redemptive history) corresponds to any real ultimate truth about God. The God who is must be the God who always was.

_Although, I admit that the more I learn about your Trinity beliefs, or lack thereof, I suppose this reply, will not
be understood by you. IDC... I know what I know and my know knows it too.
_____________________________________________

There never was when he was not.

That was the bone of contention with Arianism, the fourth century heresy which rejected the full deity of the Son of God. The issue was not whether the Son was divine in some sense, but whether he shared the same essence (homoousia) as the Father. In particular, Arius held that sonship necessarily implied having a beginning. While Arius affirmed that Christ was preexistent and that all things were created through him, he also believed that the Father created the Son. According to Arius, “If the Father begat the Son, he that was begotten has a beginning of existence; hence it is clear that there was when he was not.” Arius was careful not to use the word “time,” because he believed the Son existed before the ages began, but for Arius eternality and sonship could not go together. The Son was a divine being, but a created being with a derivative deity

How should we respond to this claim? It’s not enough to point to passages where Christ is worshiped or where the deity of the Son is broadly affirmed. Arius did not reject these conclusions and neither do modern day Arians. Where do we turn to defend the belief that there never was when the Son of God was not?

Let;s look at some passages....

A) In John 8:58 Jesus says to his opponents, “before Abraham was, I am.” Not only does Jesus link himself to Yahweh’s great “I AM” statement of Exodus 3:14, he also makes allusion to the “I am” declarations in Isaiah 40-55 (e.g., “I, the Lord, the first, and with the last; I am he” [Isa. 41:4]). Jesus considered himself as eternal as the God of the Old Testament was eternal. Little wonder some unbelieving Jews thought him a blasphemer and tried to kill him (John 8:59).

B) Likewise, Philippians 2:5-11 places Christ Jesus right in the middle of the most exalted language of Isaiah 45-46. The prediction that every knee will bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord (v. 10-11), comes from Isaiah 45:23. Jesus is identified with the God who says “I am” and “there is no other” (Isa. 45:22), with the God who declares the end from the beginning (Isa. 46:9-10).

C) Hebrews 7:3 describes Melchizedek–the mysterious king of Salem from Genesis 14–as “having neither beginning of days nor end of life.” Whatever this means about Melchizedek himself (a pre-incarnate Christ or simply a type of Christ), for the analogy to hold (“resembling the Son of God”) Christ must also have neither beginning of days nor end of life.

D) Most convincingly, in Revelation 22:13 Jesus announces, “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.” Earlier in the book, God says the same thing, making specific reference to his eternality as the one who is and who was and who is to come (Rev. 1:8; 21:6). In whatever sense the Father is the beginning and the end, so is the Son. One cannot be more or less eternal than the other.

And as i first posted
No matter our experience of sonship (i.e., having a beginning), the divine must be the lens through which we understand the human, not the other way around. Without the eternality of the Son, we do not have a Christ who can fully save because we do not have a Christ who shares in all the attributes of deity. Without eternal Sonship, we cannot affirm that the Father has always been the Father. And if the Father has not always been in communion with the Son, then love cannot be eternal, for the Father would have had to create another being in order to give and receive love. Likewise, it is only with eternal Sonship that the economic Trinity (that which we see about God in the unfolding of redemptive history) corresponds to any real ultimate truth about God. The God who is must be the God who always was.
Still not convinced? No surprise.... the above were examples from a Presbyterian blog
But let's move on more into the Doctrin of Eternal Sonship. I will remind you Red that I was on yourside, until I wasn't and by that I mean when I studied a direction that I had posted, and everyone seems afraid to touch it but it is alright because I came to know.... and now I do.
Lets continue

​

The doctrine of Eternal Sonship means that the second Person of the Godhead has eternally existed as the Son of God. The apostle John wrote, “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God” (John 1:1,2). The apostle emphasized the continuous, timeless, unlimited existence of the Son of God before His incarnation. In eternity past, there never was a time when the second Person of the Godhead was not in close fellowship with the eternal Father. Let’s look at the Bible evidence for the doctrine of Eternal Sonship:

A-​

“I came forth from the Father, and have come into the world; I am leaving the world again, and going to the Father” (John 16:28).

“And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was” (John 17:5).

“Father, I desire that they also whom You gave Me may be with Me where I am, that they may behold My glory which You have given Me; for You loved Me before the foundation of the world” (John 17:24).

B-The Son of God Created All Things.​

“He has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son of His love, in whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins. He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him” (Colossians 1:13-16).

“Has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds” (Hebrews 1:2).

C-The Son of God Was Revealed to Accomplish His Purposes.​

“She said to Him, “Yes, Lord, I believe that You are the Christ, the Son of God, who is to come into the world” (John 11:27).

“And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us an understanding, that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life” (1 John 5:20).

“The one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, that He might destroy the works of the devil” (1 John 3:8).

D-The Father Sent the Son to the World to Redeem Humanity.​

“But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law” (Galatians 4:4).

“And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son as Savior of the world” (1 John 4:14).

“In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins” (1 John 4:10).

“For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life” (John 3:16).

E-The Son Never Changes. Therefore, His Sonship to the Father Is Everlasting.​

“Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today, yes and forever” (Hebrews 13:8).

The doctrine of Eternal Sonship declares that Christ is the Son of God in the supreme and unqualified sense of the term—in nature, in knowledge. and in power (Isaiah 9:6; Micah 5:2; John 1:1–3; Micah 5:2; Matthew 1:1, 23; Luke 1:35; Philippians 2:6–8; Colossians 2:9).
And here is a very interesting statement.....
Some Evangelicals, such as J. Oliver Buswell and the late Walter Martin, have been abandoning the Trinitarian faith as defined by the First Council of Nicaea (A.D. 325). Their abandonment of orthodox Trinitarianism consists in denying the eternal Sonship of Christ, the doctrine that the second person of the Trinity was the Son of God from all eternity. Instead, they claim that the second person of the Trinity only became the Son of God at his incarnation. Apart from the incarnation he was still God, but not the Son, just the second Person.
Can you guess where this came from? NO........ Catholic Answers

What the Early Church Believed: Christ's Eternal Sonship

Was Jesus the Son of God from all eternity? Some Evangelicals think not, but the Early Chruch Fathers had something different to say.

www.catholic.com

But now I better understand your stand on the eternal sonship as well as the Trinity.
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Answer the Bible offers these scriptures

The key biblical passages upholding eternal Sonship include:

• John 1:1-3, 14 – Jesus is the eternal Word who was with God and was God from the beginning. He became flesh at a point in time.
• John 3:16 – God sent His only begotten Son, implying Sonship preceded the sending.
• John 5:23 – The Father has granted the Son equal honor, implying eternal inter-Trinitarian relationships.
• John 17:5 – Jesus refers to the glory He had with the Father before the world began.
• Philippians 2:6-8 – Christ existed in the form of God prior to His incarnation.
• Colossians 1:15-17 – The Son is eternally begotten of the Father as the firstborn over all creation.
• Hebrews 1:2-3 – The Father appointed His Son heir of all things, implying Sonship preceded the appointment.
• 1 John 4:9 – The Father sent His only begotten Son into the world.

In addition to these explicit references, Scripture contains many passages that distinguish between the persons of the Father and the Son, implying an eternal relationship (Matthew 11:27; 28:19; John 5:19-23; 14:28; 17:1-26; 2 Corinthians 13:14, etc.). The Son is said to be “of” or “from” the Father in a way that implies an eternal generation or begetting (John 16:28; Galatians 4:4). Nowhere is the Son said to become the Son of God at a point in time; His Sonship is portrayed as eternally true of Him.

_____________________________________
Are you still with me Red.? This is the last, for now.

The Doctrine of Christ’s Eternal Sonship​

By Mark W. Christy, PhD

This doctrine is supported by many passages throughout Scripture. The Bible specifically declares that ‘the Son’ created all things (Col 1:13-16; Heb 1:2). In Colossians 1:15, Paul says, “He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.”https://battlehardenedbeliever.com/?p=1927#_edn1 This suggests that Christ’s Sonship existed at least before creation.

While Scripture speaks of Christ’s physical birth through Mary, it also teaches that Christ was sent into the world as the Son, and this implies that His Sonship preexisted His incarnation (John 3:16; 20:21; 1 John 4:10, 14). In Galatians 4:4, Paul writes, “when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son.” Christ as the Son being “sent forth” implies yet again that Christ existed as the Son of God before taking on His humanity.

Speaking of the incarnation, John proclaims, “The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil” (1 John 3:8). The term “appeared” suggests that Christ the Son had been hidden from view until His incarnation. Obviously, this strongly implies His having been God the Son before His descension to earth in the form of a man.

While Christ was certainly incarnated, His eternal identity as a Triune member of the Godhead must be immutable. Therefore, His divine identity can never change. As the writer of Hebrews puts it, “Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever” (Heb 13:8).

Despite the many passages that allude to the eternal nature of Christ as the Son of God, some hold to what is known as the doctrine of the incarnational Sonship of Christ where Christ is said to have become the Son when conceived in Mary by the Holy Spirit. They point to Hebrews 1:5, which seems to suggest that Christ’s Sonship was determined at a particular time, and conclude that His Sonship must be a matter of voluntary submission (Phil 2:5-8; John 5:19).

This understanding of Christ’s sonship, however, is simply not congruent with the revealed relationship between God the Father and God the Son. Jesus said, “I came forth from the Father and have come into the world; I am leaving the world again and going to the Father” (John 16:28). Here, Jesus clearly demonstrates that His relationship to God is a father and son relationship. The eternal identity of God as the Father is bound to the declaration that Jesus is the Eternal Son. With this in view, stripping Christ of His eternal Sonship ends up affecting the revealed identities and relationships within the Trinity.

Another problem arises when one considers Old Testament (OT) prophecy about Christ. To put this simply, Christ is either revealed in the prophecies as He truly is, or He is revealed as He ultimately will be. This would essentially make it impossible for OT saints to relate to God because the means of that relationship (Christ being revealed through prophecy) has failed to materialize in the form of His Sonship. In other words, these saints could not relate to God the Father through God the Son because God the Son had not yet taken on His Sonship.

The eternal nature of Christ’s Sonship, therefore, directly impacts the salvific plans of God. This is made clear when Paul declares, “[God] chose us in [Christ] before the foundation of the world” (Eph 1:4). This verse demonstrates the identity of God’s elect was determined by God in Christ. Christ’s role in the Trinity as the Son who would ultimately bear the sins of the chosen was established before creation.

 

[Duane]

What did our Lord Himself say with regard to His own appearance in this world? Not many of His utterances relate to His pre-incarnate state; but to those that do, we must pay the utmost heed, yet seeking in them to find food for the heart rather than material for the intellect. One word of His, which declared that He was the Son before His entrance into the world, would be sufficient to establish the truth for us, regardless of all human reasoning to the contrary.

In the closing sentences of His farewell instructions to His disciples on the night of His betrayal, the Lord made reference to His coming into the world, and also to His departure out of it. He had come from a Person to a place, and was leaving that place to return to that person. He named the Person—the Father; and the place—the world.

His words were: “I came out from the Father and have come into the world; again I leave the world and go to the Father” (John 16:28).

Here we have the fact of the incarnation, viewed from its divine side and described as coming into the world. The Son is speaking of what He Himself is inwardly cognizant, or Self-conscious, as it is sometimes expressed. On a previous occasion, the Lord had said to the Pharisees, “I know whence I came and whither I go” {John 8:14). Now, to “His own,” he declares more explicity whence He came; but it was not from a place: “I came forth from beside the Father.” Then He adds that He was going away to the same Person from Whom He came out—the Father.

It is evidently implied in these words that the relationship of Father subsisted before He (the Son) came out from Him, And the same pre-incarnate relationship stands revealed in the Lord’s frequent saying that the Father sent Him (the Son); see John 5:30, 37; 6:29; 8:16, 18; 10:36; 12:49; 14:24. The sense of these passages, without forcing their meaning, is plain and unmistakable that the Lord came forth from the One Who was the Father, and came into the world; and that He was sent into the world by the One of Whom He speaks both as “the Father” and as “My Father” (John 10:29; 14:28; 20:17, 21).

The relationship, then, of Father and Son existed before the great errand of the Son was undertaken in incarnation. So, illustratively, Jesse was father and David was son before the latter appeared in the camp of Israel with his present of food (1 Sam. 17). How the gift was enhanced in value because the bearer from Bethlehem was not the servant but the son of the giver!

But in describing His incarnation by the words, “I came out (exerkomai) from the Father” more is taught than the separate existence of the Two Persons and that the Father was known to Him as Father before that coming. The name, Father, is not a mere abstract term, but a. name pregnant with the deepest and most precious spiritual meaning. Coming forth from the side of the Father, the Son came into the world enjoying the full communion of the Father’s deep affection, the Father’s secret will, the Father’s eternal counsel.

As He said in connection with the guaranteed security of His sheep, “I and the Father are One” (John 10:30).

 

[101G]

Maybe this will help. Sons are Fathers.

ERROR, not with God remember he's eternal.... try again

101G

 

[praise_yeshua]

ERROR, not with God remember he's eternal.... try again

101G

I'm glad you said this. You're right to a degree. It is paradoxical. Ultimately, you see this as the "chicken/egg" paradox.

I don't. Our very existence mirrors this relationship but with "better things"....

Heb 8:5 Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.
Heb 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
Heb 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

Which is one of the very reasons that the doctrine of the Holy Trinity is true. Your theology doesn't present this at all. It stumbles at many levels to actually properly represent "God".

It is why Jesus said....

Joh 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
Joh 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
Joh 14:11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.

There is no separation in Character in this and Character is EVERYTHING. Manifestations are just that. Lesser forms than what they conceal.

You're hung up yourself in earthly things here. Not me. I see it for exactly what it is.

 

[Duane]

ERROR, not with God remember he's eternal.... try again

101G

The triune God made man as a triune being, with body, soul, and spirit, and it is this very tri-unity of being that is unique among creation. Triune man is endowed with a God-consciousness, spiritual capacities, and a moral nature that distances him from every other created being. God created man to be His regent on earth, to govern God's world under the authority of His Creator God: "And let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth."

 

[101G]

I'm glad you said this. You're right to a degree. It is paradoxical. Ultimately, you see this as the "chicken/egg" paradox.

I don't. Our very existence mirrors this relationship but with "better things"....

Heb 8:5 Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.
Heb 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
Heb 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

Which is one of the very reasons that doctrine of the Holy Trinity is true. Your theology doesn't present this at all. It stumbles at many levels to actually properly represent "God".

It is why Jesus said....

Joh 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
Joh 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
Joh 14:11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.

There is no separation in Character in this and Character is EVERYTHING. Manifestations are just that. Lesser forms than what they conceal.

You're hung up yourself in earthly things here. Not me. I see it for exactly what it is.

No, just answer the question 101G put forth and it will end any confusion... LAST TIME, "is the person in Isaiah 66:22 the same one person who sit on the throne in Revelation 21:5 who made all things new"... YES or NO? last chance to answer.

101G.

 

[praise_yeshua]

The triune God made man as a triune being, with body, soul, and spirit, and it is this very tri-unity of being that is unique among creation. Triune man is endowed with a God-consciousness, spiritual capacities, and a moral nature that distances him from every other created being. God created man to be His regent on earth, to govern God's world under the authority of His Creator God: "And let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth."

How man choses to rule is a representation of Character. This life is designed for us to learn, grow and know our Character. What we chose to do when we think we can do anything.

 

[101G]

The triune God made man as a triune being, with body, soul, and spirit, and it is this very tri-unity of being that is unique among creation.

thanks Duane, but is man a three person being?

101G

 

[praise_yeshua]

No, just answer the question 101G put forth and it will end any confusion... LAST TIME, "is the person in Isaiah 66:22 the same one person who sit on the throne in Revelation 21:5 who made all things new"... YES or NO? last chance to answer.

101G.

Geesh. I have already answered you several times now. Yes. I did more than just say. Yes. I explained why I said... YES....

You can't. That is what people do when they have an empty argument devoid of reason and details that established the "YES" of that answer.