No person can come to Christ by their own freewill !

TomL said:
Only if the drawing is irresistible would all be saved
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Only if God irresistibly drew all would all be saved.
  • Romans 9:15-16 [NASB] For He says to Moses, "I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION." So then it [does] not [depend] on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.

TomL said:
John 12:32 (NASB 95) — 32 And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.”
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Yes and Amen!
Jesus WAS lifted up from the earth [on a Cross] and Jesus DID draw [irresistibly attract or compel] all men to himself.
  • Jesus drew RICH MEN like Joseph of Arimathea and POOR MEN like Bartimaeus the blind beggar.
  • Jesus drew RESPECTED MEN like Nocodemus and HATED MEN like Matthew the tax collector.
  • Jesus drew JEWISH MEN like Lazarus and GENTILE MEN like the Centurion.
  • Jesus drew WIVES like Salome and Mary the mother of James, and OUTCAST WOMEN like Mary the demoniac and the Samaritan woman at the well.
  • Jesus drew RADICAL MEN like Simon the Zealot and WORLDLY MEN like those in the Decapolis.
  • NO people group was beyond Jesus’ reach or excluded from Jesus’ draw.

TomL said:
But do you then believe Christ mistaken or deceptive?
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Never! Christ made good on His promise …
  • John 12:32 [ESV] “And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”
  • Revelation 5:9-10 [ESV] And they sang a new song, saying, "Worthy are you to take the scroll and to open its seals, for you were slain, and by your blood you ransomed people for God from every tribe and language and people and nation, and you have made them a kingdom and priests to our God, and they shall reign on the earth."
 
atpollard said:
Only if God irresistibly drew all would all be saved.
  • Romans 9:15-16 [NASB] For He says to Moses, "I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION." So then it [does] not [depend] on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.
Click to expand...
And?

The mercy is for those who believe on Christ

again

Only if the drawing is irresistible would all be saved. All are not saved so the drawing is not irresistible.

Romans 9:32–33 (NASB95) — 32 Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as though it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone, 33 just as it is written, “BEHOLD, I LAY IN ZION A STONE OF STUMBLING AND A ROCK OF OFFENSE, AND HE WHO BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED.”.................

Romans 10:1–13 (NASB95) — 1 Brethren, my heart’s desire and my prayer to God for them is for their salvation. 2 For I testify about them that they have a zeal for God, but not in accordance with knowledge. 3 For not knowing about God’s righteousness and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes. 5 For Moses writes that the man who practices the righteousness which is based on law shall live by that righteousness. 6 But the righteousness based on faith speaks as follows: “DO NOT SAY IN YOUR HEART, ‘WHO WILL ASCEND INTO HEAVEN?’ (that is, to bring Christ down), 7 or ‘WHO WILL DESCEND INTO THE ABYSS?’ (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead).” 8 But what does it say? “THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART”—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; 13 for “WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED.”

atpollard said:
Yes and Amen!
Jesus WAS lifted up from the earth [on a Cross] and Jesus DID draw [irresistibly attract or compel] all men to himself.
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No all were not irresistibly drawn.

Romans 10:16–21 (NASB95) — 16 However, they did not all heed the good news; for Isaiah says, “LORD, WHO HAS BELIEVED OUR REPORT?” 17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ. 18 But I say, surely they have never heard, have they? Indeed they have; “THEIR VOICE HAS GONE OUT INTO ALL THE EARTH, AND THEIR WORDS TO THE ENDS OF THE WORLD.” 19 But I say, surely Israel did not know, did they? First Moses says, “I WILL MAKE YOU JEALOUS BY THAT WHICH IS NOT A NATION, BY A NATION WITHOUT UNDERSTANDING WILL I ANGER YOU.” 20 And Isaiah is very bold and says, “I WAS FOUND BY THOSE WHO DID NOT SEEK ME, I BECAME MANIFEST TO THOSE WHO DID NOT ASK FOR ME.” 21 But as for Israel He says, “ALL THE DAY LONG I HAVE STRETCHED OUT MY HANDS TO A DISOBEDIENT AND OBSTINATE PEOPLE.”





atpollard said:
  • Jesus drew RICH MEN like Joseph of Arimathea and POOR MEN like Bartimaeus the blind beggar.
  • Jesus drew RESPECTED MEN like Nocodemus and HATED MEN like Matthew the tax collector.
  • Jesus drew JEWISH MEN like Lazarus and GENTILE MEN like the Centurion.
  • Jesus drew WIVES like Salome and Mary the mother of James, and OUTCAST WOMEN like Mary the demoniac and the Samaritan woman at the well.
  • Jesus drew RADICAL MEN like Simon the Zealot and WORLDLY MEN like those in the Decapolis.
  • NO people group was beyond Jesus’ reach or excluded from Jesus’ draw.


Never! Christ made good on His promise …
  • John 12:32 [ESV] “And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”
  • Revelation 5:9-10 [ESV] And they sang a new song, saying, "Worthy are you to take the scroll and to open its seals, for you were slain, and by your blood you ransomed people for God from every tribe and language and people and nation, and you have made them a kingdom and priests to our God, and they shall reign on the earth."
Click to expand...
Scripture does not say every person from every tribe, language, nation will be saved

Revelation 20:11–15 (NASB95) — 11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them. 12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire................

Revelation 21:8 (NASB95) — 8 “But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”
 
brightfame52 said:
You still have not showed me one scripture that says Christ died for All mankind I see you reading that into that scripture
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It is fine with me that you don't believe the truth. Satan has blinded your eyes, but I pray that God will open them before it is too late.

You are limiting Scripture where Scripture sets no limits, reading your own preconceptions into what God says. 1 John 2:2 is very clear that Christ died not only for the sins on the saints (the "elect"), but also for the sins of the whole world. There is no limit to "whole world". It is not talking about the difference between Jews and Gentiles. John was not talking only to Jews in 1 John; he was talking to the saints of all races.
 
atpollard said:
According to John Gill, virtually EVERY OTHER TIME the phrase is used and by the context of 1 John itself:

but also for [the sins] of the whole world;
the Syriac version renders it, "not for us only, but also for the whole world"; that is, not for the Jews only, for John was a Jew, and so were those he wrote unto, but for the Gentiles also. Nothing is more common in Jewish writings than to call the Gentiles (amle) , "the world"; and (Mlweh lk) , "the whole world"; and (Mlweh twmwa) , "the nations of the world"; (See Gill on 12:19); and the word "world" is so used in Scripture; see ( John 3:16 ) ( 4:42 ) ( Romans 11:12 Romans 11:15 ) ; and stands opposed to a notion the Jews have of the Gentiles, that (hrpk Nhl Nya) , "there is no propitiation for them": and it is easy to observe, that when this phrase is not used of the Gentiles, it is to be understood in a limited and restrained sense; as when they say,​
​
``it happened to a certain high priest, that when he went out of the sanctuary, (amle ylwk) , "the whole world" went after him;''​
​
which could only design the people in the temple. And elsewhere it is said,​
​
``(amle ylwk) , "the "whole world" has left the Misna, and gone after the "Gemara";''​
​
which at most can only intend the Jews; and indeed only a majority of their doctors, who were conversant with these writings: and in another place,​
​
``(amle ylwk) , "the whole world" fell on their faces, but Raf did not fall on his face;''​
​
where it means no more than the congregation. Once more, it is said {q}, when​
​
``R. Simeon ben Gamaliel entered (the synagogue), (amle ylwk) , "the whole world" stood up before him;''​
​
that is, the people in the synagogue: to which may be added,​
​
``when a great man makes a mourning, (amle ylwk) , "the whole world" come to honour him;''​
​
i.e. a great number of persons attend the funeral pomp: and so these phrases, (ygylp al amle ylwk) , "the whole world" is not divided, or does not dissent; (yrbo amle ylwk) , "the whole world" are of opinion, are frequently met with in the Talmud, by which, an agreement among the Rabbins, in certain points, is designed; yea, sometimes the phrase, "all the men of the world", only intend the inhabitants of a city where a synagogue was, and, at most, only the Jews: and so this phrase, "all the world", or "the whole world", in Scripture, unless when it signifies the whole universe, or the habitable earth, is always used in a limited sense, either for the Roman empire, or the churches of Christ in the world, or believers, or the present inhabitants of the world, or a part of them only, ( Luke 2:1 ) ( Romans 1:8 ) ( 3:19 ) ( Colossians 1:6 ) ( Revelation 3:10 ) ( 12:9 ) ( 13:3 ) ; and so it is in this epistle, ( 1 John 5:19 ) ; where the whole world lying in wickedness is manifestly distinguished from the saints, who are of God, and belong not to the world; and therefore cannot be understood of all the individuals in the world; and the like distinction is in this text itself, for "the sins of the whole world" are opposed to "our sins", the sins of the apostle and others to whom he joins himself; who therefore belonged not to, nor were a part of the whole world, for whose sins Christ is a propitiation as for theirs: so that this passage cannot furnish out any argument for universal redemption; for besides these things, it may be further observed, that for whose sins Christ is a propitiation, their sins are atoned for and pardoned, and their persons justified from all sin, and so shall certainly be glorified, which is not true of the whole world, and every man and woman in it; moreover, Christ is a propitiation through faith in his blood, the benefit of his propitiatory sacrifice is only received and enjoyed through faith; so that in the event it appears that Christ is a propitiation only for believers, a character which does not agree with all mankind; add to this, that for whom Christ is a propitiation he is also an advocate, ( 1 John 2:1 ) ; but he is not an advocate for every individual person in the world; yea, there is a world he will not pray for ( John 17:9 ) , and consequently is not a propitiation for them. Once more, the design of the apostle in these words is to comfort his "little children" with the advocacy and propitiatory sacrifice of Christ, who might fall into sin through weakness and inadvertency; but what comfort would it yield to a distressed mind, to be told that Christ was a propitiation not only for the sins of the apostles and other saints, but for the sins of every individual in the world, even of these that are in hell? Would it not be natural for persons in such circumstances to argue rather against, than for themselves, and conclude that seeing persons might be damned notwithstanding the propitiatory sacrifice of Christ, that this might, and would be their case. In what sense Christ is a propitiation, (See Gill on Romans 3:25). The Jews have no notion of the Messiah as a propitiation or atonement; sometimes they say repentance atones for all sin; sometimes the death of the righteous; sometimes incense; sometimes the priests' garments; sometimes it is the day of atonement; and indeed they are in the utmost puzzle about atonement; and they even confess in their prayers, that they have now neither altar nor priest to atone for them; (See Gill on 1 John 4:10).​
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Sadly, you and Gill are wrong. 1 John was written around 90-95AD. By this time, the Church had been preached to the Gentiles for over 50 years. There were already more Gentiles in the Church than there were Jews by this time. John gives no salutation at the beginning of his letter, he does not tell us precisely to whom he is writing. But it is clear from the language he is using that he is writing to all saints, all those who are saved without limitation. "Us" in 1 John 2:2 is the saints, not the Jews, not Jewish saints, but all saints. "The whole world" refers to all those who are not part of the Church, who are not saints. Yes, it is comforting to know that Christ died for all mankind, because that gives hope to all mankind that salvation is possible for anyone.
 
brightfame52 said:
You still have not showed me one scripture that says Christ died for All mankind I see you reading that into that scripture
Click to expand...
1 Timothy 2:6 (NASB 95) — 6 who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony given at the proper time.

Hebrews 2:9 (NASB 95) — 9 But we do see Him who was made for a little while lower than the angels, namely, Jesus, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, so that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone.

1 John 2:2 and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.
2 Cor 5:14–15 For the love of Christ controls us, having concluded this, that one died for all, therefore all died; and He died for all, so that they who live might no longer live for themselves, but for Him who died and rose again on their behalf.
1 Tim 2:5–6 For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony given at the proper time.
John 3:16–17 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.
Rom 5:6–8 For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. For one will hardly die for a righteous man; though perhaps for the good man someone would dare even to die. But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
.
Rom 6:10 For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God.
Heb 2:9 But we do see Him who was made for a little while lower than the angels, namely, Jesus, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, so that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone.

1 Pet 3:18 For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit;
 
TomL said:
And?

The mercy is for those who believe on Christ
Click to expand...
and ...

For He says to Moses, "I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION." So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy. - Romans 9:15-16 [NASB]

... the Word of God literally says the opposite of your "Free Will" human choice Semi-Pelagianism.
 
atpollard said:
and ...

For He says to Moses, "I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION." So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy. - Romans 9:15-16 [NASB]

... the Word of God literally says the opposite of your "Free Will" human choice Semi-Pelagianism.
Click to expand...
You are very confused here

God says he will save those who believe on Jesus

Scripture shows man can do so

Romans 10:8–10 (NASB95) — 8 But what does it say? “THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART”—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.
 
TomL said:
again

Only if the drawing is irresistible would all be saved. All are not saved so the drawing is not irresistible.
Click to expand...
again ...

Only if God irresistibly drew all would all be saved.

  • For He says to Moses, "I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION." - Romans 9:15 [NASB]
... "ON WHOM" is not "all"!
 
Doug Brents said:
It is fine with me that you don't believe the truth. Satan has blinded your eyes, but I pray that God will open them before it is too late.

You are limiting Scripture where Scripture sets no limits, reading your own preconceptions into what God says. 1 John 2:2 is very clear that Christ died not only for the sins on the saints (the "elect"), but also for the sins of the whole world. There is no limit to "whole world". It is not talking about the difference between Jews and Gentiles. John was not talking only to Jews in 1 John; he was talking to the saints of all races.
Click to expand...
Do you know what the word savingly means now?
 
TomL said:
1 Timothy 2:6 (NASB 95) — 6 who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony given at the proper time.

Hebrews 2:9 (NASB 95) — 9 But we do see Him who was made for a little while lower than the angels, namely, Jesus, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, so that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone.

1 John 2:2 and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.
2 Cor 5:14–15 For the love of Christ controls us, having concluded this, that one died for all, therefore all died; and He died for all, so that they who live might no longer live for themselves, but for Him who died and rose again on their behalf.
1 Tim 2:5–6 For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony given at the proper time.
John 3:16–17 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.
Rom 5:6–8 For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. For one will hardly die for a righteous man; though perhaps for the good man someone would dare even to die. But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
.
Rom 6:10 For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God.
Heb 2:9 But we do see Him who was made for a little while lower than the angels, namely, Jesus, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, so that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone.

1 Pet 3:18 For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit;
Click to expand...
You still have not showed me one scripture that says Christ died for All mankind I see you reading that into that scripture
 
brightfame52 said:
Why do you ask me the same questions over and over and over you know good and well I believe that Christ died only for the elect
Click to expand...
The question was

Is Christ drawing all men without exception to himself?

Why do you avoid it

Having stated

"I believe that verse" regarding

John 12:32 (NASB95) — 32 “And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.”
 

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