No person can come to Christ by their own freewill !

[atpollard]

Precisely. Those who were saved before Jesus was incarnated were saved only by His sacrifice. His sacrifice went to both those future and past.

I have heard it put this way. Old testament saints looked forward to the cross. We who get saved in this day and age look back to the cross.

I think TedT was confused about what was the point of Jesus suffering for the sins of “Cain” or the sins of those who died in Sodom (already judged and damned) with no possibility of benefitting from Jesus’ suffering.

I doubt he was questioning the OT saints being redeemed by the blood of the Cross.

 

[TomL]

No Paul didn't contradict himself, Christ was raised for our justification if he died for our trespasses.

Justification depends on faith

Rom 3:22–24

that is, the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. For there is no distinction, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified as a gift by his grace, through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus,

Gal 2:16

but knowing that a person is not justified by the works of the law, if not by faith in Jesus Christ, and we have believed in Christ Jesus so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no human being will be justified.

Acts 13:39

by this one everyone who believes is justified!

Rom 4:5

But to the one who does not work, but who believes in the one who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited for righteousness,

Acts 13:38–39

“Therefore let it be known to you, men and brothers, that through this one forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you, and from all the things from which you were not able to be justified by the law of Moses, 39 by this one everyone who believes is justified!

Acts 10:43

To this one all the prophets testify, that through his name everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins.”

Acts 26:18

to open their eyes so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the power of Satan to God, so that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a share among those who are sanctified by faith in me.’

Romans 3:23–25

for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified as a gift by his grace, through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God made publicly available as the mercy seat through faith in his blood, for a demonstration of his righteousness, because of the passing over of previously committed sins,

Rom 5:1

Therefore, because we have been declared righteous by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,

 

[TedT]

We are all condemned till we accept Jesus.

Believe in your theology if you will but the word not in
Jn 3:18 Whoever believes in Him is NOT condemned, (Berean Standard Bible) is nay, neither, never, no; Strong's Exhaustive Concordance.
The range of denial of their condemnation is well within the word never...

If HE can un-condemn HIS condemned believers then HIS loving patience and kindness would compel HIM to wait for every condemned non-believer to repent and to believe and so be made holy. The gates of hell would never be locked....the Arminian heresy denies this, sigh.

I contend that faith comes before sinfulness and that is why sinful believers are never condemned. Unbelief, never believing, is the original sin of all reprobate and since it was by their free will, it cannot be forgiven...leaving them to condemnation.

 

[TedT]

Precisely. Those who were saved before Jesus was incarnated were saved only by His sacrifice. His sacrifice went to both those future and past.

Gobblety gook: those saved were believers before they sinned: those condemned were never believers before they sinned the unforgivable sin of rebuking HIM as a liar and a false GOD.

 

[atpollard]

Gobblety gook: those saved were believers before they sinned: those condemned were never believers before they sinned the unforgivable sin of rebuking HIM as a liar and a false GOD.

I stand corrected. I was wrong about what TedT thought (but I did mention that I suck at reading minds)

 

[TibiasDad]

Q2: How is your view of "FREE WILL" different from the definition of "SEMI-PELAGIANISM" quoted above?

Free will only comes to play at the end of the equation!

God is the offended party, therefore, God is the only one who can allow the relationship to be restored. Even if man wanted to be restored, God is under no obligation to accept man’s pleas for forgiveness.

But the character of God is displayed by the fact that he chose to give man a way back into God’s trust: and that is by giving man the opportunity, and thus the right, to trust in God and his extension of grace to his fallen creation.

That is the gospel message: The God whom we offended still loves us and desires to restore the relationship broken by our rebellion. He pays the cost of this restoration, and extends the right hand of fellowship to us with the simple twofold question of “Do you believe me?” and “Will you trust me to do what I say I will do?”

My freedom to choose whether or not I believe in the promises of God as expressed in the gospel message only comes into play at the end of the process.

We do not deserve to be forgiven or restored to fellowship with God, thus, it is all of grace! And that God did what he didn’t have to do, makes it all about his love.

We are completely at the mercy and will of God, and our freedom to choose is only valid because he gives us the opportunity to make a choice! The offended party always controls the restoration process. The offended party is the only one that can allow for restoration to happen.


Doug

 

[TibiasDad]

No Paul didn't contradict himself, Christ was raised for our justification if he died for our trespasses.

And all that Christ did does not affect anyone until they believe! There is no justification, no forgiveness granted, no life restored without belief in God’s promises to forgive, restore, and make us just in his sight.

Doug

 

[brightfame52]

Justification depends on faith

False it depends on Christ's death

 

[brightfame52]

And all that Christ did does not affect anyone until they believe!

That's absolutely false when He rose from the dead that was a testification that they were Justified before God, they shall come into the knowledge of it by faith later on after they're born sinners and regenerated.

 

[Darby]

And all that Christ did does not affect anyone until they believe! There is no justification, no forgiveness granted, no life restored without belief in God’s promises to forgive, restore, and make us just in his sight.

Doug

That's why the call us "believers"

To believe in Jesus means more than just acknowledging his existence; it involves trusting him personally, accepting that he is the Son of God, believing he died for humanity's sins, and committing your life to him as your Savior and Lord. This belief is often described as moving from an intellectual "belief that" to a deep, life-committing "belief in" him.

There are certain points we all need to understand about the salvation Jesus offers.

First, we all are sinners and stand under the judgment of God.

Second, God loves us, and Jesus came to make forgiveness and salvation possible. He died on the cross as the complete sacrifice for our sins. He took on Himself the judgment that we deserve.

Third, God in His grace offers us the gift of eternal life. But like any gift, it becomes ours ONLY when we respond and receive it.

Fourth, salvation is intimately linked to Jesus and the cross. Jesus’ virgin birth, by the miraculous intervention of the Holy Spirit, meant that He did not inherit a sinful human nature like we did. Neither did Jesus commit any sin during His lifetime. Jesus became the only perfect Man, and as such, He was uniquely qualified to put into action God’s plan of salvation for mankind. On the cross, Jesus took the punishment of our sin. He was our Substitute. He suffered the judgment and condemnation of death that our sinful nature and deeds deserve.

Finally, faith is essential for salvation. But, there are various kinds of beliefs or faith, and not all are linked to salvation. In the New Testament, faith means more than intellectual belief. It involves trust and commitment. I may say that I believe a bridge will hold my weight. But I really believe it only when I commit myself to it and walk across it. Salvation faith involves an act of commitment and trust, in which you commit your life to Jesus Christ and trust Him alone as your Savior and Lord.

 

[Doug Brents]

... and failed MISERABLY to achieve the goal of saving "every soul ever created".

Note ... 1 John 2:2 [KJV] And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for [the sins of] the whole world.

Neither He nor I ever said that His goal was to save every soul ever created. He did not fail in His goal, because His goal was to save only those who believed in Him. But He died for everyone, even those who would not believe in Him. Just because they don't believe in Him doesn't mean that He wasn't willing to save them if they would believe.

 

[Doug Brents]

Yes it is true

What a waste of a post. You are arguing with God, not me. He is the one who said that Jesus died for all mankind.

 

[Doug Brents]

I think TedT was confused about what was the point of Jesus suffering for the sins of “Cain” or the sins of those who died in Sodom (already judged and damned) with no possibility of benefitting from Jesus’ suffering.

I doubt he was questioning the OT saints being redeemed by the blood of the Cross.

Without the death of Jesus, even the OT saints would not have had any hope of salvation. Was Cain saved? We have no indication one way or the other. He certainly sinned (as have everyone else ever lived), but did he repent and receive forgiveness? We aren't told.

 

[Doug Brents]

Gobblety gook: those saved were believers before they sinned: those condemned were never believers before they sinned the unforgivable sin of rebuking HIM as a liar and a false GOD.

LOL, heavy sigh. Ted, everyone who was saved before Jesus came to Earth were saved by His blood, just as you and I are. But they could not believe in Him, because He was not yet born. Their belief was in the Father, and their faith was in Him and His promises (which included the future Messiah). But without Jesus' death and resurrection, there would have been no salvation for them just as there would be no salvation for us.

 

[brightfame52]

What a waste of a post. You are arguing with God, not me. He is the one who said that Jesus died for all mankind.

Scripture never says that Christ died for All mankind, he died for his sheep which is a portion of mankind or his church which is a portion of mankind, and those he did die for shall be saved!

 

[Caleb]

He died for sinners and that is everyone.

"all fall short of the glory of God" comes from Romans 3:23 indicating that every person has sinned and does not meet God's perfect standards. This highlights the universal need for redemption and grace through faith in Jesus Christ.

Jesus died for everyone but that only those who respond in faith will reap the benefits of His sacrifice.

 

[FreeInChrist]

Scripture never says that Christ died for All mankind,

Key Scriptures Indicating Jesus Died for All Mankind​

John 3:16​

• Verse: "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life."
• Meaning: This verse emphasizes God's love for the entire world and the offer of salvation to all who believe.

2 Corinthians 5:15​

• Verse: "And he died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised."
• Meaning: This passage clearly states that Jesus died for all, indicating a universal scope of His sacrifice.

1 John 2:2​

• Verse: "He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world."
• Meaning: This verse reinforces the idea that Jesus' atonement extends beyond just a select group, covering the sins of the entire world.

Romans 5:18​

• Verse: "Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men."
• Meaning: This verse draws a parallel between Adam's sin affecting all humanity and Christ's righteousness offering justification to all.

These scriptures collectively support the belief that Jesus' death was intended for all of mankind, offering salvation to anyone who chooses to believe.

I did not write the four corners of the Holy Scriptures AND NEITHER DID YOU.... So quit playing around with them to make them say what you want them to say.

 

[brightfame52]

Key Scriptures Indicating Jesus Died for All Mankind​

John 3:16​

• Verse: "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life."
• Meaning: This verse emphasizes God's love for the entire world and the offer of salvation to all who believe.

2 Corinthians 5:15​

• Verse: "And he died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised."
• Meaning: This passage clearly states that Jesus died for all, indicating a universal scope of His sacrificcription never said Christ died for All mankind

The bible never reads anywhere that Christ died for All mankind, that's eisegesis, read into the scripture.

 

[FreeInChrist]

The bible never reads anywhere that Christ died for All mankind, that's eisegesis, read into the scripture.

John 3:16 is eisegesis?

In your dreams.

I bet you hand you hat on every word that comes from

So, What? John 3:16 and the Lord’s Prayer – God Didn't Say That

goddidntsaythat.com

God didn't say that.

So, What? John 3:16 and the Lord’s Prayer​

JoelMHoffman February 4, 2010 Bible versions translation practice

Or are you in real life Joel M Hoffman?

2 Corinthians 5:15​

• Verse: "And he died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised."

following are 41 translations that say the same thing and they all arrived here by personal eisegesis?

New International Version
And he died for all, that those who live should no longer live for themselves but for him who died for them and was raised again.

New Living Translation
He died for everyone so that those who receive his new life will no longer live for themselves. Instead, they will live for Christ, who died and was raised for them.

English Standard Version
and he died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.

Berean Standard Bible
And He died for all, that those who live should no longer live for themselves, but for Him who died for them and was raised again.

Berean Literal Bible
And He died for all that those living no longer should live to themselves, but to the One having died for them and having been raised again.

King James Bible
And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.

New King James Version
and He died for all, that those who live should live no longer for themselves, but for Him who died for them and rose again.

New American Standard Bible
and He died for all, so that those who live would no longer live for themselves, but for Him who died and rose on their behalf.

NASB 1995
and He died for all, so that they who live might no longer live for themselves, but for Him who died and rose again on their behalf.

NASB 1977
and He died for all, that they who live should no longer live for themselves, but for Him who died and rose again on their behalf.

Legacy Standard Bible
And He died for all, so that they who live would no longer live for themselves, but for Him who died and rose again on their behalf.

Amplified Bible
and He died for all, so that all those who live would no longer live for themselves, but for Him who died and was raised for their sake.

Christian Standard Bible
And he died for all so that those who live should no longer live for themselves, but for the one who died for them and was raised.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
And He died for all so that those who live should no longer live for themselves, but for the One who died for them and was raised.

American Standard Version
and he died for all, that they that live should no longer live unto themselves, but unto him who for their sakes died and rose again.

Contemporary English Version
And Christ did die for all of us. He died so we would no longer live for ourselves, but for the one who died and was raised to life for us.

English Revised Version
and he died for all, that they which live should no longer live unto themselves, but unto him who for their sakes died and rose again.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
He died for all people so that those who live should no longer live for themselves but for the man who died and was brought back to life for them.

Good News Translation
He died for all, so that those who live should no longer live for themselves, but only for him who died and was raised to life for their sake.

International Standard Version
He died for all people, so that those who live should no longer live for themselves but for the one who died and rose for them.

NET Bible
And he died for all so that those who live should no longer live for themselves but for him who died for them and was raised.

New Heart English Bible
He died for all, that those who live should no longer live to themselves, but to him who for their sakes died and rose again.

Webster's Bible Translation
And that he died for all, that they who live should not henceforth live to themselves, but to him who died for them, and rose again.

Weymouth New Testament
and that He died for all in order that the living may no longer live to themselves, but to Him who died for them and rose again.
Majority Text Translations
Majority Standard Bible
And He died for all, that those who live should no longer live for themselves, but for Him who died for them and was raised again.

World English Bible
He died for all, that those who live should no longer live to themselves, but to him who for their sakes died and rose again.
Literal Translations
Literal Standard Version
and He died for all, that those living may no longer live to themselves, but to Him who died for them, and was raised again.

Berean Literal Bible
And He died for all that those living no longer should live to themselves, but to the One having died for them and having been raised again.

Young's Literal Translation
and for all he died, that those living, no more to themselves may live, but to him who died for them, and was raised again.

Smith's Literal Translation
And he died for all, that the living no more live to themselves, but to him having died for them, and having risen.
Catholic Translations
Douay-Rheims Bible
And Christ died for all; that they also who live, may not now live to themselves, but unto him who died for them, and rose again.

Catholic Public Domain Version
And Christ died for all, so that even those who live might not now live for themselves, but for him who died for them and who rose again.

New American Bible
He indeed died for all, so that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.

New Revised Standard Version
And he died for all, so that those who live might live no longer for themselves, but for him who died and was raised for them.
Translations from Aramaic
Lamsa Bible
And that he died for all, that those who live may not henceforth live for themselves, but for him who died and rose for them.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
And he died in the place of every person, that those who live would not live for themselves, but for The One who died for their persons and arose.
NT Translations
Anderson New Testament
and he died for all, that those who live should no more live for themselves, but for him who died for them, and rose again.

Godbey New Testament
and he died for all, in order that those living may not live unto themselves, but unto him who died for them and is risen.

Haweis New Testament
and he died for all, that they who live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him that died for them, and rose again.

Mace New Testament
that they who are in a state of life should not live at their own discretion, but to the service of him who died for them, and rose again.

Weymouth New Testament
and that He died for all in order that the living may no longer live to themselves, but to Him who died for them and rose again.

Worrell New Testament
and He died for all, that those who live should no longer live to themselves, but to Him Who died for them, and rose again.

Worsley New Testament
And He died for all, that those who live might no longer live to themselves, but to Him who died for them and rose again.

You do embody the very best theology blatherskite that Mephistopheles ever came up with. Who? Google it... for it does fit.

 

[Doug Brents]

Scripture never says that Christ died for All mankind, he died for his sheep which is a portion of mankind or his church which is a portion of mankind, and those he did die for shall be saved!

Can you not read? Or is it that Satan has blinded you to what Scripture says. 1 John 2:2 says clearly and explicitly that Jesus died not only for the sins of the "elect", but also for the sins of the whole world.

And as many other people have mentioned above, Scripture also says that He died for sinners (which everyone is), and He died for the whole world, not just some of the world.