No person can come to Christ by their own freewill !

[civic]

Well Tulip Truths are the Gospel

Nope The 5 "articles of remonstrance,"

Are the gospel

See how easily you were refuted

 

[TomL]

I know you dont receive them Gospel Truths, may God have mercy on you

Those were not gospel truths as the scriptures show.

 

[civic]

Those were not gospel truths as the scriptures show.

Correct they have nothing to do with the gospel according to Jesus and the Apostles

 

[TomL]

No, He did exactly as He stated, the all He drawed to Himself are converted or shall be.

Except Jesus does not state he would draw the converted or that he would draw THE unconditionally elect.

He simply states he will draw all.

 

[TomL]

Correct they have nothing to do with the gospel according to Jesus and the Apostles

There simply is no gospel for most of mankind unconditionally reprobated before the foundation of the world.

 

[civic]

There simply is no gospel for most of mankind unconditionally reprobated before the foundation of the world.

Yep it’s an attack on Gods character, goodness.

 

[TomL]

Just telling it like it is.

Yep. Tullip has no grace at all for the majority, that is the unconditionally rejected of mankind.

 

[TomL]

Yep it’s an attack on Gods character, goodness.

That is a sad part.

 

[Hosanna]

Nope Im stating a fact

Fact is your chair has been filled.

 

[brightfame52]

Those were not gospel truths as the scriptures show.

Yes they are as the scripture shows

 

[brightfame52]

Except Jesus does not state he would draw the converted or that he would draw THE unconditionally elect.

He simply states he will draw all.

He said the all He draws shall come unto Him, that is conversion, they came to Him

 

[brightfame52]

Fact is your chair has been filled.

Please explain

 

[FreeInChrist]

Yes they are as the scripture shows

 

[TomL]

He said the all He draws shall come unto Him, that is conversion, they came to Him

In John 12:32?

John 12:32 (NASB95) — 32 “And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.”

Um, no, it does not say that.

 

[TomL]

Nope, you ignore what scripture states.

1. Unconditional Election

In contrast to the Arminian view that God elected some based on their foreseen faith in Christ, Reformed theology teaches the doctrine of unconditional election. This means that God’s election of sinners to salvation is not conditioned on anything outside of God’s nature. God is not dependent in any way on His creatures.

That, however, is not the only Arminian view.


Corporate election


7 Reasons from Context & Grammar Showing Eph 1:4 Teaches Corporate Future Blessing … not Divine Individual Election



1. The context is a description of spiritual blessings for those in Christ, who Himself is already seated in the heavenlies. The emphasis is therefore forward looking, not backward concerning God’s purpose. Other terms in this context (1:3-14, “inheritance”, “fullness of times”) confirm this future emphasis. The future blessing itemized in 1:4 is to be holy and without blame before God in the heavenlies with Christ in the future.



2. The grammar of the complementary infinitive – εἶναι – “to be” must not be disconnected in thought from the main verb – ἐξελέξατο – “were chosen”. The blessing is not being chosen to be in Christ before the foundation of the world, but the blessing to be chosen in Christ to be holy and without blame in the future.



3. The grammar (semantic meaning) of “in Christ” is crucial to this context and to this passage. The spiritual body of Christ is made up of all believers who were added to it by the Holy Spirit (1Cor 12:13). One cannot be in Christ, that is “in Him” before being added to that body by the Holy Spirit. See Rom 9:25 where before being in Christ is clearly called “not My people” and “not beloved”.



4. The context (delimitations) follows the thread – “in Christ” (vs 3), “in him” (vs 4, 9 & 11), “in the beloved one” (vs 6),“in whom” (vs 7, 11, & 13). These point clearly to Paul’s closing description of how one becomes “sealed… until the redemption of the purchased possession” in the body of Christ by the Spirit of promise. One is “sealed” in Christ when one has heard the gospel and has believed it (1:13).



5. The grammar (semantic meaning) of “us” therefore in 1:4 must be anachronistic. No individuals or group of persons existed before the foundation of the world to be chosen between except the members of the Godhead. It is understandable that promises made to one of those members would benefit any who would later be joined to Him spiritually, that is to His spiritual body.



A future member of that body could say anachronistically that they were chosen in Christ before creation to receive that fulfillment of those same promises made to Christ back then. It would be like a Christian Jew saying, “I was chosen in Abraham before Israel was a nation to dwell in Israel in the Millennium with Abraham.” He would be speaking anachronistically, with no thought of his identity as an individual being chosen to be Abraham when Abraham received that original promise.



6. The grammar (semantic delimitation) of “before the foundation of the world” which is a terminus ad quem (limit to which), denotes a finish line of the activity of the main verb/infinitive thought in 1:4, and it should not be confused with the NT use of “from the foundation of the world” which is a terminus a quo (limit from which), that is, a starting line of activity discussed where that phrase is found. The verses stating “before” creation in the NT, like this one, relate only to activities of the individuals within the Godhead (John 17:3, 2Tim 2:9, Titus 1:2, 1Peter 1:20). The verses stating “from” creation in the NT all relate to activities that began after creation, like adding names to the Lamb’s Book of Life (inferred in Rev 13:8, 17:8). The Greek preposition – απο – always means “from” or “since” and never “before.” The Greek preposition – προ – always means “before” either of time or rank.



7. The context (rational concept) of individuals being chosen before creation who do not yet exist in reality requires a definition of how they existed in God’s mind in order to be chosen there in His mind. One option is to be known in His mind as an eternally set group of individual lives (like biographies) which include all God’s interaction also as eternally set. This, however, makes any concept of “choice” an anthropomorphic expression, since no life was previously unchosen and then chosen. And no forethought would have preceded that “choice”, and God could not express free will to make choices into the future forever. Academia Ephesians 1:4 - exegetical dialog Brian Wagner

 

[brightfame52]

In John 12:32?

John 12:32 (NASB95) — 32 “And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.”

Um, no, it does not say that.

He stated I will a indicative statement of fact, Draw all to Him that is conversion , you doubting omnipotence God?

 

[FreeInChrist]

Nope, you ignore what scripture states.


That, however, is not the only Arminian view.


Corporate election


7 Reasons from Context & Grammar Showing Eph 1:4 Teaches Corporate Future Blessing … not Divine Individual Election



1. The context is a description of spiritual blessings for those in Christ, who Himself is already seated in the heavenlies. The emphasis is therefore forward looking, not backward concerning God’s purpose. Other terms in this context (1:3-14, “inheritance”, “fullness of times”) confirm this future emphasis. The future blessing itemized in 1:4 is to be holy and without blame before God in the heavenlies with Christ in the future.



2. The grammar of the complementary infinitive – εἶναι – “to be” must not be disconnected in thought from the main verb – ἐξελέξατο – “were chosen”. The blessing is not being chosen to be in Christ before the foundation of the world, but the blessing to be chosen in Christ to be holy and without blame in the future.



3. The grammar (semantic meaning) of “in Christ” is crucial to this context and to this passage. The spiritual body of Christ is made up of all believers who were added to it by the Holy Spirit (1Cor 12:13). One cannot be in Christ, that is “in Him” before being added to that body by the Holy Spirit. See Rom 9:25 where before being in Christ is clearly called “not My people” and “not beloved”.



4. The context (delimitations) follows the thread – “in Christ” (vs 3), “in him” (vs 4, 9 & 11), “in the beloved one” (vs 6),“in whom” (vs 7, 11, & 13). These point clearly to Paul’s closing description of how one becomes “sealed… until the redemption of the purchased possession” in the body of Christ by the Spirit of promise. One is “sealed” in Christ when one has heard the gospel and has believed it (1:13).



5. The grammar (semantic meaning) of “us” therefore in 1:4 must be anachronistic. No individuals or group of persons existed before the foundation of the world to be chosen between except the members of the Godhead. It is understandable that promises made to one of those members would benefit any who would later be joined to Him spiritually, that is to His spiritual body.



A future member of that body could say anachronistically that they were chosen in Christ before creation to receive that fulfillment of those same promises made to Christ back then. It would be like a Christian Jew saying, “I was chosen in Abraham before Israel was a nation to dwell in Israel in the Millennium with Abraham.” He would be speaking anachronistically, with no thought of his identity as an individual being chosen to be Abraham when Abraham received that original promise.



6. The grammar (semantic delimitation) of “before the foundation of the world” which is a terminus ad quem (limit to which), denotes a finish line of the activity of the main verb/infinitive thought in 1:4, and it should not be confused with the NT use of “from the foundation of the world” which is a terminus a quo (limit from which), that is, a starting line of activity discussed where that phrase is found. The verses stating “before” creation in the NT, like this one, relate only to activities of the individuals within the Godhead (John 17:3, 2Tim 2:9, Titus 1:2, 1Peter 1:20). The verses stating “from” creation in the NT all relate to activities that began after creation, like adding names to the Lamb’s Book of Life (inferred in Rev 13:8, 17:8). The Greek preposition – απο – always means “from” or “since” and never “before.” The Greek preposition – προ – always means “before” either of time or rank.



7. The context (rational concept) of individuals being chosen before creation who do not yet exist in reality requires a definition of how they existed in God’s mind in order to be chosen there in His mind. One option is to be known in His mind as an eternally set group of individual lives (like biographies) which include all God’s interaction also as eternally set. This, however, makes any concept of “choice” an anthropomorphic expression, since no life was previously unchosen and then chosen. And no forethought would have preceded that “choice”, and God could not express free will to make choices into the future forever. Academia Ephesians 1:4 - exegetical dialog Brian Wagner

Excellent reply, but small correction.

I posted that among the other 4 Tulip points because brightfame52 hangs on every word in them and I wanted him to see exactly what he was hanging onto.

Again... your reply is excellent

 

[civic]

Nope, you ignore what scripture states.


That, however, is not the only Arminian view.


Corporate election


7 Reasons from Context & Grammar Showing Eph 1:4 Teaches Corporate Future Blessing … not Divine Individual Election



1. The context is a description of spiritual blessings for those in Christ, who Himself is already seated in the heavenlies. The emphasis is therefore forward looking, not backward concerning God’s purpose. Other terms in this context (1:3-14, “inheritance”, “fullness of times”) confirm this future emphasis. The future blessing itemized in 1:4 is to be holy and without blame before God in the heavenlies with Christ in the future.



2. The grammar of the complementary infinitive – εἶναι – “to be” must not be disconnected in thought from the main verb – ἐξελέξατο – “were chosen”. The blessing is not being chosen to be in Christ before the foundation of the world, but the blessing to be chosen in Christ to be holy and without blame in the future.



3. The grammar (semantic meaning) of “in Christ” is crucial to this context and to this passage. The spiritual body of Christ is made up of all believers who were added to it by the Holy Spirit (1Cor 12:13). One cannot be in Christ, that is “in Him” before being added to that body by the Holy Spirit. See Rom 9:25 where before being in Christ is clearly called “not My people” and “not beloved”.



4. The context (delimitations) follows the thread – “in Christ” (vs 3), “in him” (vs 4, 9 & 11), “in the beloved one” (vs 6),“in whom” (vs 7, 11, & 13). These point clearly to Paul’s closing description of how one becomes “sealed… until the redemption of the purchased possession” in the body of Christ by the Spirit of promise. One is “sealed” in Christ when one has heard the gospel and has believed it (1:13).



5. The grammar (semantic meaning) of “us” therefore in 1:4 must be anachronistic. No individuals or group of persons existed before the foundation of the world to be chosen between except the members of the Godhead. It is understandable that promises made to one of those members would benefit any who would later be joined to Him spiritually, that is to His spiritual body.



A future member of that body could say anachronistically that they were chosen in Christ before creation to receive that fulfillment of those same promises made to Christ back then. It would be like a Christian Jew saying, “I was chosen in Abraham before Israel was a nation to dwell in Israel in the Millennium with Abraham.” He would be speaking anachronistically, with no thought of his identity as an individual being chosen to be Abraham when Abraham received that original promise.



6. The grammar (semantic delimitation) of “before the foundation of the world” which is a terminus ad quem (limit to which), denotes a finish line of the activity of the main verb/infinitive thought in 1:4, and it should not be confused with the NT use of “from the foundation of the world” which is a terminus a quo (limit from which), that is, a starting line of activity discussed where that phrase is found. The verses stating “before” creation in the NT, like this one, relate only to activities of the individuals within the Godhead (John 17:3, 2Tim 2:9, Titus 1:2, 1Peter 1:20). The verses stating “from” creation in the NT all relate to activities that began after creation, like adding names to the Lamb’s Book of Life (inferred in Rev 13:8, 17:8). The Greek preposition – απο – always means “from” or “since” and never “before.” The Greek preposition – προ – always means “before” either of time or rank.



7. The context (rational concept) of individuals being chosen before creation who do not yet exist in reality requires a definition of how they existed in God’s mind in order to be chosen there in His mind. One option is to be known in His mind as an eternally set group of individual lives (like biographies) which include all God’s interaction also as eternally set. This, however, makes any concept of “choice” an anthropomorphic expression, since no life was previously unchosen and then chosen. And no forethought would have preceded that “choice”, and God could not express free will to make choices into the future forever. Academia Ephesians 1:4 - exegetical dialog Brian Wagner

 

[Hosanna]

Please explain

musical chairs

 

[brightfame52]

musical chairs

u lost me