No person can come to Christ by their own freewill !

civic said:
He doesn’t know what regeneration , salvation , conversion , new birth , the gospel or faith means
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(y)(y) And not just refuses to learn but refuses to read.... lest he might understand?

It's OK. He can copy and paste his reply which I assume to be on a computer sticky note on his screen for ease
and I am happy with smileys and gifs.
 
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brightfame52 said:
Thats a false gospel, it was specifically for His Church.
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Not according to scripture: It is for “the sins of the whole world”!1Jn 2:2b… οὐ περὶ τῶν ἡμετέρων δὲ μόνον ἀλλὰ καὶ περὶ ὅλου τοῦ κόσμου.
Note that Jesus is the “atoning sacrifice for our sins” meaning those currently believers, “and not only for ours (current believers), “but also” (ἀλλὰ καὶ): this introduces another category of people that are distinct from the previous category of “us/our”.

This is how we know that the “whole world” of people are distinct from the “us/our”, and that the whole world are not like the “us/our” group. They are not believers, and yet their sins have been atoned for. What greater sin is there but that which refuses to accept that which has been provided for them? Another reason that we are without excuse before God!

Doug
 
TibiasDad said:
Not according to scripture: It is for “the sins of the whole world”!1Jn 2:2b… οὐ περὶ τῶν ἡμετέρων δὲ μόνον ἀλλὰ καὶ περὶ ὅλου τοῦ κόσμου.
Note that Jesus is the “atoning sacrifice for our sins” meaning those currently believers, “and not only for ours (current believers), “but also” (ἀλλὰ καὶ): this introduces another category of people that are distinct from the previous category of “us/our”.

This is how we know that the “whole world” of people are distinct from the “us/our”, and that the whole world are not like the “us/our” group. They are not believers, and yet their sins have been atoned for. What greater sin is there but that which refuses to accept that which has been provided for them? Another reason that we are without excuse before God!

Doug
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I John 2:2 "And He is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world."

The way I understand it, the sacrifice of our Lord Jesus was for all believers in the whole world who repent of their sins.

s e l a h
 
Selah said:
Only believers are drawn to God. Yes? :)
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That is another side to the coin.

@brightfame stated..." He said He would draw them UNTO Himself, that's conversion, He gathered them to Himself"

I do not agree with the conversion part .

My beliefs lie with the foreknowledge of God who does not predestine people for their eternities but within His wisdom and knowledge knows who is and will be willing to know the truth and accept it as they grow through life.

God's foreknowledge allows Him to know who will accept the truth, but it does not mean He predestines individuals to their eternal fates; rather, people have the free will to make their own choices throughout life.

The truth, especially in the past 150 years has been readily available through assorted media for all to know and accept or reject.

The following link explains things better then I am able.

Foreknowledge Without Foreordination (1 Sam 23:10-13)​

August 19, 2020 by Shawn Lazar in Blog - doctrine of God, foreknowledge, middle knowledge, predestination, simple foreknowledge, theology


God is omniscient.

That is, God knows everything that could be, would be, has been, is, and will be.

But how does God know the future? Upon what does His knowledge depend?

Some people (e.g., Calvinists) claim that God’s foreknowledge depends upon His foreordination. For example, Lewis Sperry Chafer said, “Nothing could be foreknown as certain that had not been made certain by foreordination, nor could anything be foreordained that was not foreknown.” That is, God only knows the future because He has decreed everything that will happen in the future. Otherwise, God could not know it.

Is that claim true?

I think it faces two important objections.

First, there is the problem of evil. If God foreordains everything that happens, and sin and evil happen, then God foreordains sin and evil. That would make God worse than the devil, since the devil would only be carrying out what God Himself foreordained. On this view, God is the source of all evil and suffering.

Second, there is direct Biblical evidence that God knows things that He has not foreordained. For example, in an often-quoted passage on the subject of God’s omniscience, David asked the Lord what would happen if he stayed in the city of Keilah (which indicates that David assumed God knew the future). Would the men of Keilah give him over to Saul?

“O Lord God of Israel, Your servant has certainly heard that Saul seeks to come to Keilah to destroy the city for my sake. Will the men of Keilah deliver me into his hand? Will Saul come down, as Your servant has heard? O Lord God of Israel, I pray, tell Your servant.”
And the Lord said, “He will come down.”
Then David said, “Will the men of Keilah deliver me and my men into the hand of Saul?”
And the Lord said, “They will deliver you.”
So David and his men, about six hundred, arose and departed from Keilah and went wherever they could go. Then it was told Saul that David had escaped from Keilah; so he halted the expedition (1 Sam 23:10-13).
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God’s answer to David shows that the Lord knew what the men of Keilah would do, i.e., God knew that if David stayed, they would deliver him over to Saul. That is an example of God’s “middle knowledge.” So what did David do after being given that information? Sensibly, he left! He didn’t want to be delivered over to Saul. And because he left Keilah, he avoided that result. And God, in His omniscience, no doubt also knew what David would choose to do.

Here’s the point: God knew something that didn’t actually happen. That means God knew something that He did not foreordain. In his book, The Unseen Realm, Michael Heiser draws this same conclusion:

Why is this significant? This passage clearly establishes that divine foreknowledge does not necessitate divine predestination. God foreknew what Saul would do and what the people of Keilah would do given a set of circumstances. In other words, God foreknew a possibility—but this foreknowledge did not mandate that the possibility was actually predestined to happen. The events never happened, so by definition they could not have been predestined. And yet the omniscient God did indeed foresee them. Predestination and foreknowledge are separable (The Unseen Realm, pp. 64-65, emphasis his).
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Therefore, Calvinists like Chafer are wrong—God’s foreknowledge does not always depend upon His foreordination (though sometimes it may!). Instead, God has what is called simple foreknowledge of the future. That is, God knows what you would choose, and what you will choose, without predestining your choices.

To me... Conversion involves a voluntary response to God's grace, where an individual turns from self and sin towards faith in Christ. I simply do not see divine grace initiating conversion, and especially not through God's drawing of men to Jesus to facilitate such.

Understood it is a very complicated subject , but my stand is FREE-WILL and not predestination.

Blessings
 
TibiasDad said:
No, to him is Jesus. Drawn does not mean saved/conversion
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Yes it does, He gathered them to Himself, this is Prophecy in fact Gen 49:10

The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be.

That word gathering means obedience yiqhah: Obedience, compliance
Study of that word:

2. Messianic Kingship: In Genesis 49:10 the obedience of the nations prefigures the Great Commission (Matthew 28:18-20), where Christ’s universal authority secures the willing allegiance of every disciple.

• Missions: Expect the obedience of the nations; evangelism is grounded in the certainty that Christ’s reign draws people groups into glad submission. https://biblehub.com/hebrew/3349.htm

Now Paul in conjunction with this gathering of the elect from the nations, writes Rom 15:18

For I will not dare to speak of any of those things which Christ hath not wrought by me, to make the Gentiles obedient, by word and deed,

Notice it says to make the nations obedient, its not a mere offer or possibility but they will by Christ drawing power Jn 12:32 be made obedient.
 
civic said:
1 verse ripped away from the rest of the bible doesn't nullify ll the other passages on the atonement for the whole world.

The atonement is not mentioned there. :)

next fallacy
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Each scripture passage declares a truth, every word of scripture is pure and should be pondered in light of all truth overall Prov 30:5

Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him.
 

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