brightfame52
Active Member
Yes it does. You been deceived with the word all and dont understand its various scriptural uses. His death [or being lifted up] is specifically for His Sheep and He draws all of them to Himself.
No person can come to Christ by their own freewill !
- Thread starter brightfame52
- Start date
Sorry but You are still stuck with Christ's claim to draw all people.
Rev 5:9 does not help you.
Out of every kindred and tongue, not all people.
John 12:32 (LEB) — 32 And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”
There is not a message there about some of every kind.
Nor is there a message about sheep.
You have confused extent with application regarding the atonement of Christ.
Hebrews 2:9 (LEB) — 9 but we see Jesus, for a short time made lower than the angels, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, so that apart from God he might taste death on behalf of everyone.
brightfame52
Active Member
He will draw all people the Father has given to Him Jn 6:37
37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
FreeInChrist
Active Member
IT does not saay that.
John 12:32 means that when Jesus is "lifted up" on the cross, He will draw all people to Himself, signifying His role in salvation for both Jews and Gentiles. This verse emphasizes the universal invitation to come to Christ through His sacrificial death.
It says nothing about the elect. It says ALL.
Nope those he already haves
John 12:32 (LEB) — 32 And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”
brightfame52
Active Member
The scripture plainly teaches that none [by nature] will come to God in Christ Jn 5:40 cp Rom 3:11
40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
Scripture teaches that the unwillingness to come to God in Christ is founded in mans inability to do the same Jn 6:44,65
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
Notice Vs 44 states this inability is only remedied by the Fathers drawing, which is nothing short of the Power of God. The drawing power of God which imparts Spiritual life and strength/ability, changes the unwillingness to come to causing to be willing to come Ps 110:3
3 Thy people[The elect/Sheep] shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.
The person now has a willing mind to come to Christ, the person has been chosen by God to approach Ps 65:4
Blessed is the man whom thou choosest, and causest to approach unto thee, that he may dwell in thy courts: we shall be satisfied with the goodness of thy house, even of thy holy temple.
Thats the drawing in Jn 6:44, its God causing by His drawing power.5
40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
Scripture teaches that the unwillingness to come to God in Christ is founded in mans inability to do the same Jn 6:44,65
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
Notice Vs 44 states this inability is only remedied by the Fathers drawing, which is nothing short of the Power of God. The drawing power of God which imparts Spiritual life and strength/ability, changes the unwillingness to come to causing to be willing to come Ps 110:3
3 Thy people[The elect/Sheep] shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.
The person now has a willing mind to come to Christ, the person has been chosen by God to approach Ps 65:4
Blessed is the man whom thou choosest, and causest to approach unto thee, that he may dwell in thy courts: we shall be satisfied with the goodness of thy house, even of thy holy temple.
Thats the drawing in Jn 6:44, its God causing by His drawing power.5
brightfame52
Active Member
It doesnt have to say it, it just needs to be scriptural
brightfame52
Active Member
Thats the all, here Jn 6:37
All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
Shall come means it was yet future, its in the future tense
FreeInChrist
Active Member
If it does not say it it is not scriptural.
brightfame52
Active Member
Also you dont really believe Jesus words here since the all He draws actually come to Him and follow become believer . The greek word draw actually denotes He wins them over:
πάντας ἑλκύσω πρὸς ἐμαυτόν, I by my moral, my spiritual, influence will win over to myself the hearts of all, John 12:32
To "win over" someone means to persuade them t
..
To persuade is actually faith
brightfame52
Active Member
Yes it is scriptural if whats said is principled with scripture.
No I do not believe all who are woo'ed come
Jeremiah 31:3–4 (LEB) — 3 From afar Yahweh appeared to me, saying, “I have loved you with an everlasting love. Therefore I have drawn you with loyal love. 4 I will again build you, and you will be built, O virgin Israel. You will again adorn yourself with your tambourines, and you will go forth in the dancing in a ring of the merrymakers.
Hosea 11:1–4 (LEB) — 1 When Israel was a child, I loved him, and out of Egypt I called my son. 2 When I called them, they went from my face. They sacrificed to the Baals, and they sacrificed to idols. 3 And I myself taught Ephraim to walk; I took them in my arms, but they did not know that I healed them. 4 I drew them with human ties, with the bands of love. I was to them like one who lifted up a yoke on their jaws, though I bent down to them and let them eat.
Sorry, but you are incorrect, for unlike you, I do not believe the drawing is irresistible.
But it does not mean the Father keeps on giving by drawing men endlessly, else there be no need for Jesus himself to draw after the cross
John 12:32 (LEB) — 32 And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.
Aeliana
Active Member
Right, there is the "if" factor.
New International Version
If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
New Living Translation
If you openly declare that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
English Standard Version
because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
Berean Standard Bible
that if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
Berean Literal Bible
that if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised Him out from the dead, you will be saved.
King James Bible
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
New King James Version
that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
New American Standard Bible
that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
NASB 1995
that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
Yes
To have an ability to believe and respond to God's word is scriptural
Deuteronomy 30:11–20 (NASB95) — 11 “For this commandment which I command you today is not too difficult for you, nor is it out of reach. 12 “It is not in heaven, that you should say, ‘Who will go up to heaven for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?’ 13 “Nor is it beyond the sea, that you should say, ‘Who will cross the sea for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?’ 14 “But the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may observe it. 15 “See, I have set before you today life and prosperity, and death and adversity; 16 in that I command you today to love the LORD your God, to walk in His ways and to keep His commandments and His statutes and His judgments, that you may live and multiply, and that the LORD your God may bless you in the land where you are entering to possess it. 17 “But if your heart turns away and you will not obey, but are drawn away and worship other gods and serve them, 18 I declare to you today that you shall surely perish. You will not prolong your days in the land where you are crossing the Jordan to enter and possess it. 19 “I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants, 20 by loving the LORD your God, by obeying His voice, and by holding fast to Him; for this is your life and the length of your days, that you may live in the land which the LORD swore to your fathers, to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, to give them.”
brightfame52
Active Member
In John 12 32 the all drawn are actually converted into believers and followers. You deny that.
brightfame52
Active Member
No its correct, the drawn come to Jesus and believe, that's the power of His death and resurrection.
brightfame52
Active Member
The all in Jn 12 32 are the same all in Jn 6:37
Aeliana
Active Member
You can be drawn to Jesus by the gospel, but it's up to the induvial to accept Him as Lord and Savior. It's a choice.
“Let not your hearts be troubled. Believe in God; believe also in me.” John 14:1
