No person can come to Christ by their own freewill !

[TibiasDad]

No not to you.

Why not me? Why not anyone? Could it be because it’s not possible? Why would you believe something that you cannot explain to others who ask you to explain it?

Doug

 

[Selah]

Believing is an evidence of ALREADY having eternal life

Right. Having eternal life from before the foundation of the world because they believed. This is the foreknowledge of God; this is what He knew about Jeremiah. God knows all of us this way.

Romans 8:29 (NKJV) For whom He foreknew, He also predestined [to be] conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Jeremiah 1:4-5 (NKJV) 4 Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying: 5 “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you; Before you were born I sanctified you; I ordained you a prophet to the nations.”

s e l a h

 

[brightfame52]

Why is it false? Why are you “right”? All you are saying is that I should believe you just because you say I’m wrong!

Doug

Because its not true.

 

[brightfame52]

Why not me? Why not anyone? Could it be because it’s not possible? Why would you believe something that you cannot explain to others who ask you to explain it?

Doug

Ive explained my views, you dont believe them, thats not my problem.

 

[brightfame52]

Right. Having eternal life from before the foundation of the world because they believed. This is the foreknowledge of God; this is what He knew about Jeremiah. God knows all of us this way.

Romans 8:29 (NKJV) For whom He foreknew, He also predestined [to be] conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Jeremiah 1:4-5 (NKJV) 4 Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying: 5 “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you; Before you were born I sanctified you; I ordained you a prophet to the nations.”

s e l a h

No they didn't believe before the foundation of the world. However they are regenerated in time b4 they believe.

 

[TibiasDad]

Because its not true.

Why is it not true?

Doug

 

[TibiasDad]

Ive explained my views, you dont believe them, thats not my problem.

No, you’ve stated your views, you have not explained anything. Not why your opinion is correct or why mine is invalid. Nada!

Doug

 

[Kermos]

This is from NTGreek.org:
(See “Purpose Clause)

If the subjunctive mood is used in a ‘purpose’ (or in a ‘result’) clause, then the action should not be thought of as a possible result, but should be viewed as the stated outcome that will happen (or has happened) as a result of another stated action. The use of the subjunctive is not to indicate that something ‘may’ or ‘might’ result from a given action, but it is stating the ‘purpose of’ or ‘reason for’ an action.

In other words, the purpose of believing in John 3:16 is to receive everlasting life instead of perishing.

Doug

But it is because of believing.

You are both wrong, TibiasDad and Kampioen, for the Apostle John wrote "Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God, and everyone who loves the Father loves whoever has been born of Him (1 John 5:1). See the first occurrence of the phrase has been sets the sequential order of occurrence which has life preceding belief.

All born of God have life in Christ.

TibiasDad, you adulterated the Word of God recorded in John 3:16 when you wrote "John 3:16 is to receive everlasting life" because the word "receive" is absent from the Word of God "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that every one believing in Him perishes not, but has everlasting life" (John 3:16). Your phrase "is to receive" (man-made dependency) is not the Word has (Christ indicates existing condition using grammatical present tense).

TibiasDad, the second instance of you adulterating the Word recorded in John 3:16 in your post is as follows. The purpose of believing is perishes not according to the grammar, and the result of perishes not is everlasting life according to the grammar. You adulterated perishes not out of it's grammatical position resulting in your grammatically illegal direct association between believing and everlasting life.

You expanded your grammatical errors by adulterating the conjunction but out of the Lord's sayings in John 3:16 after which you injected the sequence indicator of before at the same sentence position.

Lord Jesus establishes that "every one believing in Him" "has everlasting life", so He establishes related occurrence, not sequential occurrence.

Furthermore, the "believing" is not controlled by man, just as explained to you free-willians, here:

Jn 6:44

44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

The drawing of the Father of some to come to/believe in Christ is actually the Father giving them to His Son Jn 6:65

65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

Again Jn 6:37

All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

This is the only way a man can come to believe in Christ, it can be only by the will of the Father, not mans so called freewill.

See the natural mans will as he is, is dead, spiritually dead in sin, hes in a hopeless lost state, and not only cannot come, but will not come /believe Jn 5:40, and Rom 3:11.

The word given in Jn 6:65 and giveth in Jn 6:37 is the same word δίδωμί and it means:

to give one to some one as his own: as the object of his saving care, to give one to someone, to follow him as a leader and master,

God is said to have given certain men to Christ, i. e. to have disposed them to acknowledge Christ as the author and medium of their salvation, and to enter into intimate relations with him, hence Christ calls them 'his own' (τὰ ἐμά, John 10:14).

So we have God causing them to be willing in the day of His Power Ps 110:3

3 Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.

Kampioen and TibiasDad, the Word recorded in John 3:16 is in the dialog in which Lord Jesus Christ opens with "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the Kingdom of God" (John 3:3) and concludes with "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the Kingdom of God" (John 3:3); therefore, saving belief and everlasting life are controlled by God, not man, but truly by the living loving Almighty God!

 

[TibiasDad]

Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God, and everyone who loves the Father loves whoever has been born of Him

Incorrect! “Believes” is a present tense active verb that establishes the relationship with the character description that follows.
In other words, one who is presently believing has been, at some point in the past, born again. That is the Greek syntax. It doesn’t say anything about how one is born again, it just says that current believer is and has been born again.

Doug

 

[TibiasDad]

TibiasDad, you adulterated the Word of God recorded in John 3:16 when you wrote "John 3:16 is to receive everlasting life" because the word "receive" is absent from the Word of God "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that every one believing in Him perishes not, but has everlasting life" (John 3:16). Your phrase "is to receive" (man-made dependency) is not the Word has (Christ indicates existing condition using grammatical present tense).

No, it is not I but you that is misrepresenting the Word. There is no “has” in the Greek, there is the subjunctive purpose clause “should not perish” and “but should have eternal life”

The purpose clause is established by the use of “hina”, “in order that” which precedes it. It says the X has occurred “in order that” Y should occur.

It is the same as saying “dinner is prepared so that you can eat.” We can’t eat if no food is ready to be eaten.

Doug

 

[TibiasDad]

TibiasDad, the second instance of you adulterating the Word recorded in John 3:16 in your post is as follows. The purpose of believing is perishes not according to the grammar, and the result of perishes not is everlasting life according to the grammar. You adulterated perishes not out of its grammatical position resulting in your grammatically illegal direct association between believing and everlasting life.

I did not, and you cannot grammatically prove that I did. As I have repeatedly pointed out to you, the subjunctive used here is a purpose clause, which states the purpose of the preceding verb, believes, is to establish, allow for or cause a particular effect or result. It can be no other way grammatically speaking.

Doug

 

[TibiasDad]

You expanded your grammatical errors by adulterating the conjunction but out of the Lord's sayings in John 3:16 after which you injected the sequence indicator of before at the same sentence position.

And how exactly did I do this? Show me the quote! I say “in order that one should not perish, but should have eternal life.”

Doug

 

[brightfame52]

Why is it not true?

Doug

Check my threads

 

[TibiasDad]

Check my threads

You made the claim, show me your proof! It’s not my job to prove your claims.

Doug

 

[brightfame52]

No, you’ve stated your views, you have not explained anything. Not why your opinion is correct or why mine is invalid. Nada!

Doug

I have many threads that show I have explained my views and many other posts besides. Just because I dont answer your questions and challenges means nothing.

 

[TibiasDad]

I have many threads that show I have explained my views and many other posts besides. Just because I dont answer your questions and challenges means nothing.

It apparently means that you, for whatever reason, don’t want to deal with my responses. Hmm…


Doug

 

[brightfame52]

You made the claim, show me your proof! It’s not my job to prove your claims.

Doug

Well thats on you. I have already told you I cant prove truth to you, apparently its not Gods will. I can witness Truth to you, but I cant cause you to believe it, thats out of my control.

 

[TibiasDad]

Well thats on you. I have already told you I cant prove truth to you, apparently its not Gods will. I can witness Truth to you, but I cant cause you to believe it, thats out of my control.

That’s not what show me proof means; you should know better than that, this isn’t your first rodeo! Whether I believe it or not is not the point; the point is that in our conversations, I have ask you to show me the reason you have concluded the things you have. You have not demonstrated any evidence of your proposal. Again, me believing you is not the point, but if there is any chance of me changing my mind, it would only be by someone showing me the evidence that could convince me.

You haven’t shown me any evidence at all, let alone anything convincing. Show me your evidence, and let the Holy Spirit convince me.

Doug

 

[DavidTree]

John 6:44 (KJV) No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

No man can come to the Son except the Father draws them to synergistically/libertarianly believe in Jesus. ... Then they will come and Jesus will efficiently/monergistically raise them up at the last day. ... Otherwise they won't come.

Which is it?
synergistically
or
libertarianly

 

[Kampioen]

You are both wrong, TibiasDad and Kampioen, for the Apostle John wrote "Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God, and everyone who loves the Father loves whoever has been born of Him (1 John 5:1). See the first occurrence of the phrase has been sets the sequential order of occurrence which has life preceding belief.

All born of God have life in Christ.

TibiasDad, you adulterated the Word of God recorded in John 3:16 when you wrote "John 3:16 is to receive everlasting life" because the word "receive" is absent from the Word of God "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that every one believing in Him perishes not, but has everlasting life" (John 3:16). Your phrase "is to receive" (man-made dependency) is not the Word has (Christ indicates existing condition using grammatical present tense).

TibiasDad, the second instance of you adulterating the Word recorded in John 3:16 in your post is as follows. The purpose of believing is perishes not according to the grammar, and the result of perishes not is everlasting life according to the grammar. You adulterated perishes not out of it's grammatical position resulting in your grammatically illegal direct association between believing and everlasting life.

You expanded your grammatical errors by adulterating the conjunction but out of the Lord's sayings in John 3:16 after which you injected the sequence indicator of before at the same sentence position.

Lord Jesus establishes that "every one believing in Him" "has everlasting life", so He establishes related occurrence, not sequential occurrence.

Furthermore, the "believing" is not controlled by man, just as explained to you free-willians, here:


Kampioen and TibiasDad, the Word recorded in John 3:16 is in the dialog in which Lord Jesus Christ opens with "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the Kingdom of God" (John 3:3) and concludes with "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the Kingdom of God" (John 3:3); therefore, saving belief and everlasting life are controlled by God, not man, but truly by the living loving Almighty God!

That's becaus a man is saved by the time he has faith. There is no gap. God knows when a man has faith. But it is because he has faith.