Selah
Active Member
To me, what matters is this:
What does the Bible say about predestination and election?
It’s there, plainly taught by our heavenly Father.
s e l a h
No person can come to Christ by their own freewill !
- Thread starter brightfame52
- Start date
What does the Bible say about predestination and election?
It’s there, plainly taught by our heavenly Father.
s e l a h
Selah
Active Member
There are two groups of people: the Elect and the non-Elect, and they certainly do share the same attributes. They love the LORD.
S e l a h
FreeInChrist
Active Member
But not with Free Will
Selah
Active Member
I’m not sure what you’re trying to say.
FreeInChrist
Active Member
If you believe that God has chosen people from before time to give salvation to under his guidance that is called predestination.
That word IS in the bible.
John Calvin, IMO , screwed that entire concept up so you will find Calvinists and then you will find predestined believers.
Wikipedia simply explains the concept as this
Predestination
Predestination, in theology, is the doctrine that all events have been willed by God, usually with reference to the eventual fate of the individual soul. Explanations of predestination often seek to address the paradox of free will, whereby God's omniscience seems incompatible with human free will. In this usage, predestination can be regarded as a form of religious determinism; and usually predeterminism, also known as theological determinism.
If this is the case, as predestined people believe, there is no room for free-will.
I was raised in a church who followed those beliefs, but did not dogmatically teach it (unless that was in one of their weekly study groups I did not attend)
But the more I read the bible and other theological things and listened to teachings from assorted ideas as an adult,
I developed a free will belief. IOW I believe free will is the ability to make choices unimpeded, which is essential for moral responsibility. I believe that God's foreknowledge does not negate human freedom.
I believe it is God's foreknowledge of knowing what I, or you or anyone will do do not mean that he is in control of our actions or our beliefs. While He has a plan for salvation, I believe individuals still have the freedom to accept or reject that plan, making their choices meaningful.
IOW, in a nutshell... I believe God's foreknowledge means He knows who will choose to accept salvation, but this does not negate human free will. While God predestines certain events, individuals still have the freedom to make their own choices regarding faith and salvation.
Now... there are those on here who will say I am nuts.
Hopefully @brightfame52 or @Red Baker will come along and chime in with their views.
I disagree with both of them BUT we all have our free will to agree or disagree
I hope this helps you understand my view
brightfame52
Active Member
When a person is being drawn by God or Christ its the equivalent of giving them both repentance and faith to believe on Him. 10
TibiasDad
Active Member
To move towards repentance is not to experience repentance necessarily. It is to make the need of repentance undeniable and makes us culpable for our decisions about it.
We are called to repentance by the gospel and the call is does what it is intended to do completely, but our response to it is another question.
Doug
brightfame52
Active Member
No man/person can come to Jesus Christ in believing except it be for performance of God ! Its like when Jesus says here Jn 3:20-21
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
Coming to the Light, which is coming to Jesus who is the Light of the world Jn 8:12;9:5,12:46 is wrought by God, its His accomplished work for men to come to Christ Jn 6:65
65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father. 10
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
Coming to the Light, which is coming to Jesus who is the Light of the world Jn 8:12;9:5,12:46 is wrought by God, its His accomplished work for men to come to Christ Jn 6:65
65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father. 10
brightfame52
Active Member
Christ said He would draw all to Him, thats conversion, faith. Just like Jn 6:65
65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
the words unto me here are the same unto me in Jn 12:32 and here it clearly means to believe on Him
TibiasDad
Active Member
Nobody denies that the Father, by means of the Spirit, must move first. It’s called conviction of sin and illumination of hope that we can be saved.
The question is whether we can be free to reject what grace has revealed? One doesn’t always believe.
Doug
civic
Active Member
Yep
FreeInChrist
Active Member
@brightfame52,
I have a general question that is on this subject but again is not, for it is not within the 4 corners of the Holy Bible per se, exactly.
You know scripture as well as everyone on this and other forums do. It is the basis of many heated discussions among
many people with actually differing views even within the same exegesis beliefs and or personal eisegesis.
With that being said I believe therre is little doubt at to the meaning of that sexual immorality and fornication are very not accepted by God.
Paul talks against in1 Corinthians, Galatians, and Ephesians, and we have as well in the Gospels and the Book of Revelation.
Especially Rev 21:8 NASB95 But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”
I know your beliefs and they com from the predestination end of things and you know I am free will.
Can you tells me where lies those people who are sinners same as you or I, but regard anything sex as perfectly normal.
Those who have babies out of wedlock and believe God gave them that child to offset their depressed state.
Those who just live together in a "committed" relationship yet talk often about God and Jesus and looking forward to going to heaven or worse yet, or go up on a hill and make a ceremony to each other that is not a wedding but is approved of by the parents and grandparents some of who are very into their respective churches.
Those who have had multiple partners and still claim to be not only a Christian but a born again with no repentance from them at all.
Those who are just plain different sexually but still attend church and take communion.
Those ......Well, that's enough... you have the idea.
Where does the predestination of God fit with these people who are not disbelievers, not atheists, not agnostics, BUT THEY believe?
To me I see people who have heard the word from where ever.... maybe parents when growing up, maybe Sunday School, Maybe watching films like The Chosen and The Passion of the Christ.... or heaven forbid the series Touched by an angel.
I see the people have done something to believe yet they will not give up the sin against the flesh.
I merely am curious your POV on the predestination of these folks.
If they were, and they were led to their belief by God through His plan... how are they able to defy Him?
If they wee not, and through their own free will came to understand and believe they are still n defiance but if you ever have
a faith based conversation with them, you too will wonder how they are so certain.
I have a general question that is on this subject but again is not, for it is not within the 4 corners of the Holy Bible per se, exactly.
You know scripture as well as everyone on this and other forums do. It is the basis of many heated discussions among
many people with actually differing views even within the same exegesis beliefs and or personal eisegesis.
With that being said I believe therre is little doubt at to the meaning of that sexual immorality and fornication are very not accepted by God.
Paul talks against in1 Corinthians, Galatians, and Ephesians, and we have as well in the Gospels and the Book of Revelation.
Especially Rev 21:8 NASB95 But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”
I know your beliefs and they com from the predestination end of things and you know I am free will.
Can you tells me where lies those people who are sinners same as you or I, but regard anything sex as perfectly normal.
Those who have babies out of wedlock and believe God gave them that child to offset their depressed state.
Those who just live together in a "committed" relationship yet talk often about God and Jesus and looking forward to going to heaven or worse yet, or go up on a hill and make a ceremony to each other that is not a wedding but is approved of by the parents and grandparents some of who are very into their respective churches.
Those who have had multiple partners and still claim to be not only a Christian but a born again with no repentance from them at all.
Those who are just plain different sexually but still attend church and take communion.
Those ......Well, that's enough... you have the idea.
Where does the predestination of God fit with these people who are not disbelievers, not atheists, not agnostics, BUT THEY believe?
To me I see people who have heard the word from where ever.... maybe parents when growing up, maybe Sunday School, Maybe watching films like The Chosen and The Passion of the Christ.... or heaven forbid the series Touched by an angel.
I see the people have done something to believe yet they will not give up the sin against the flesh.
I merely am curious your POV on the predestination of these folks.
If they were, and they were led to their belief by God through His plan... how are they able to defy Him?
If they wee not, and through their own free will came to understand and believe they are still n defiance but if you ever have
a faith based conversation with them, you too will wonder how they are so certain.
civic
Active Member
Don’t you know that god has determined , predestined their sin and evil . Crazy isn’t it. Everything that comes to pass is by gods hand and will.
Woe to those who call evil good . Put the d in front of evil and you get devil
FreeInChrist
Active Member
You are aware this can also apply to free-will as God foreknew who yada, yada....
brightfame52
Active Member
Correct, and that move saved, regenerated them. Once Divine Intervention occurs that's Salvation in the bud began
FreeInChrist
Active Member
Ah I forgot that.
brightfame52
Active Member
impossible Jn 6:44,65
FreeInChrist
Active Member
You do not understand what I said.
Jn 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day
/Jn 6:45 It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.
It says everyone who has learned....that is not meaning all will learn. They heard and they made their choice. And those who chse God were the ones sent by the Father.
This is so clear......................................................
Jn 6:65 He went on to say, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them.”
Enabled them by teaching and those He foreknew were those that... well, you know it... you copy it enough.
The main difference is this is not a predestined thing....
brightfame52
Active Member
When you said freewill, that was enough. Jn 6:44,65 eliminates that
